Suggestions to a newbie for a base layer substrate

[Paul Kettless]

Hi,

I am in the process of setting up a 125gal Discus community planted tank, I have decided to use a natural white silica sand for the top layer (to help prevent peppering in the discus) with a grain size of 0.4 - 0.8mm. This is also a good grain size for Sterbai Corydoras and Clown Loaches which will be my bottom dwellers and clean up crew. This sand has a natural PH so will not alter water chemistry.

Could you please give me your recommendations for a good base layer, obv keeping Discus my water temp will be high, so limited to the types of plants that I will be keeping, but various Anubias, Echinodorus, java fern/moss. No doubt I will be asking your opinions on more types of plants that are happy with temps in and around 86 degrees.

i would also appreciate you input on what depth the layers should be, and if any kind of membrane should be used in-between layers. Obv I understand that the more heavily planted layers can be built up with more depth, but a general rule of thumb would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Kind regards
Paul

 

[foxfish]

What does (to help prevent peppering in the discus) mean?
The main issue you would have is that the smallest gains always end up on the bottom.
If for instance you wanted to use a soil base you would need a membrane inbetween the layers with a very fine mesh.
It might be a lot easier to does the water column.

 

[Paul Kettless]

Peppering basically is a genetic of certain Discus, mainly Pigeon Bloods, they have the ability to change colour to the environment in which they are within, which often darkens the body of the fish, and can cause black spots, hence then i guess the term Peppering. Therefore, it is best to keep Discus in an aquarium with a light substrate amd the lighter the better, and background over black substrate etc. Its worth mentioning that peppering does not effect the health of the fish in anyway or form, but there is no point in spending serious money on beautifully coloured fish for them only to turn a merky brown colour through poor set up.

 

[Paul Kettless]

As for something to keep the soil and sand seperate, could you use something like greenhouse shading material?? Apologies, all the questions are starting lol

 

[alto]

I've used very fine (& less fine) sands layered on top of Tropica Growth Substrate without any emergence of the "dirt" layer - check out Tropica Layout videos for loads of demos with this substrate layer, used beneath various sands (gravels?) & Tropica Aquarium Soil (you can find videos on plant handling/growth, aquarium care, Tropica product, layouts etc) ... and they have a 90Day App to guide you through set up

eg,
Graeme Edwards Nature's Privilege shows a 270l tank with "beach" foreground & planted background (note the CO2 levels & water column fertilization, there seems to be no soil base)
This is perhaps a better example from Dan Crawford (though smaller tank) as it's an "Easy" set up that combines similar elements (easy to vacuum the sand area after feeding)

Even with a substrate layer, you'll likely still need to apply water column fertilizers - there is just more leeway for missed days/lower dosing etc

If this is your first attempt at discus and your first attempt at planted tanks, spend more time than you think you'll need in the planning stages; it's a conservative approach to establish the tank first, then add in the discus last
eg,
1) substrate & hardscape: as discus are your objective, make choices with their comfort in mind
2) flood tank, make sure of choices from 1) (& no floaters!)
3) cycled filter - fast & easy step if you've a source for biological media
4) plants & CO2 (Day 1) + shrimp & otocinclus algae crew (Day 3 or so)
5) plants growing great & limited algae etc (Day 30 or later), now add in community fish in small groups at least 3-5 days apart to allow filter to "catch up" to the new bioload - sometimes you don't observe any effects with fish addition, other times you may observe some ammonia/nitrite spikes. You want the planted aspect running smoothly before adding in the complications of fish.
6) Day 60 - 90, add discus: if juveniles, add at least 12 (though 20 might be better, depends somewhat on size/age & confidence level of fish) - at this point, daily water changes for a few weeks while discus establish, this way you can feed heavily & maintain water quality.

As in 5, everything in the tank should be going along swimmingly before adding in the discus ... I'd source the discus from a single breeder & add fish in a single group (most breeders or discus specialists will happily work with you on this), make sure you know what fish are eating & water parameters so the transition to your tank is as simple as possible.

If you want to add more/different fish in later, I'd only do so with a quarantine tank up & running ...new fish go into Q tank for 2 week minimum (4 is better), then add a couple of discus from your tank to the Q tank, observe a couple weeks, then add everyone back into main tank (this obviously means having a suitable sized Q tank), perform daily water changes for the next couple of weeks, then taper back to your routine.

More journals,
Not discus size by any means but this is an amazing sand scape, River shore
Martin has great sand in Two sisters (I don't know if he has soil in the planted areas)
Hobgoblin's Cave is a good read as naughtymoose did substrate layer complete with screen, then replaced substrate

 

[Paul Kettless]

Thanks very much for the detailed reply, as you have said the Discus are my main objective, but I have always wanted to keep them in a fairly natural habitat, I am not worried about it being an exact biotope aquarium, and not a bare bottom glass shell, i see no fun or beauty in that. I have read front to back a couple of books on keeping discus, and I have no intention of having juvenile fish, the huge water changes and heavy feeding would not fit with my ideas for this tank. Therefore, I will be buying sub adults, and I have already decided that I will be keeping german stendker, supplied by Devotedly Discus in East Sussex.

The discus will def be added last and I will be getting them all in one go, and I have no intentions of rushing this, it will take as long as needed. I already have a quarantine tank and would never put anything in the main display tank without holding. I learnt the hard way with fish and corals when I first set up my reef tank and had a crash due to an unhealthy coral. this will never happen again.

As for the top layer, I am still open to ideas and I will check out the journals and links.

Many thanks for your input, much appreciated.

 

[Edvet]

I would advise against too fine white sand. Even though it appears in nature, there is constant flow there "to keep it clean". In our tanks all the dirt will stay on top of it and it will look "dirty" fast. I am a big fan for natural riversand, wich varies from 1-4/5 mm, a lot of dirt can and will go into the substrate ( helped by snails) and add to a better plantgrowth.
In the high temperature environment of discus i would be carefull with CO2. If you want to use it ( i can't see to many advantages) i would use it with the "low" lighting of the "low energy" tank style. You won't want or need the very high plantgrowth with a discus tank, it'is not the high maintenance high pruning frequency setup of the manicured scaped tanks. Most often you will use swordplants, some large "eye-catchers", maybe a tenellus or sagittaria carpet and some stem plants, alternanthera or hydrocotyle. Most of these are relatively undemanding, and don't need CO2 to be happy. Some feeding at the roots help, some light water dosing of ferts help, not too much light helps. Discus feel better in dimly lit environments too, not that they can't function in high light, but lower light is more their natural situation. If you are planning on breeding them in that tank you will need to have RO water available, eggs will have a hard time being fertilised in harder water, the male will have to be much faster.

 

[Paul Kettless]

Thanks very much for the input and the video links, they make interesting watching. I will do some research on natural river sand, as long as it is reasonably light in colour it could be a good compromise. Thanks also for the recommendations on additional plant species. I was planning on using c02, but i will read up a lot more before i make my decision. Making the system reasonably low maintenance (hands in tank) would be an advantage as discus are quite timid, and easily spooked by hands in the water every five minutes. I will use a dosing pump that I had from my reef tank to supply ferts and any other chemicals that are possibly needed all mechanically.

With regards to water, I have an ro unit, but the majority of people that I have spoke with who keep Discus in my area appear to just use an HMA filter as we have very hard water in Lowestoft, and being on a water meter it was one of the main reason why I shut my reef down as it was a large tank and water changes where costing a small fortune.

Thanks again for your input guys, I really appreciate subjective ideas and methods...... food for tgought

 

[Edvet]

Just for keeping discus, especially bred ones, hard water is fine. Just when you want to go into breeding (which is far easier in a barebottom small tank with a cone) you'll need RO. Just make sure the addings from the watercompany are safe in your area.
Low dosage CO2 will help with the plants growing, it's just not needed.

37489883_wedstrijd1 by Ed Prust, on Flickr
This is an old photo of my tank after i changed it from a discustank to a planted altum tank, the substrate has been in it for 16 years now, never changed it
DSC_6452_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr
this shows the color and structure a bit better