The End of The Beginning

[AverageWhiteBloke]

HAHA, yeah never thought about it that way but now you mention it. I was eager to get this show on the road so I never thought about it too much. Maybe if I explain the logic behind it though it might make a bit more sense.

I've messed with planted tanks for over 20 years back in the mercury vapour pendant days and wrong information. Back in the day my first attempt I went all in with Dennerle stuff who were the world leaders at the time arguably. They were the go to people if you wanted a decent planted tank before I'd even heard of Amano. Since then my life took over and I've messed with attempts on the cheap, everything 2nd hand or off Ebay to varying levels of success. Then I found UKAPS and replanted a non planted Aqua One 850 and spent years looking at other peoples amazing set ups and doing a bit of dreaming...One day.

Now I've finally got the chance, I've made all the mistakes possible and wished I'd done things different from the start but not had the time or money to do anything about it so I've just had an extremely mediocre planted tank sitting in my dining room for about 12 years. Hence the beginning of the end, I'm ending that tank and beginning a new one that I've always wanted. Sort of and ending with experimenting with plants although I doubt that ever ends. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination by a long way but I seem to have mastered the fundamentals of growing plants (The easier species anyway) so now I'm hoping to combine what I've learned so far with some decent equipment and rather than just grow plants to grow them in a manner correctly laid out to create an eye catching display that I can be proud of instead of drooling over other peoples.

Open for suggestions on a better title though.

 

[alto]

Thanks, that was one of my main concerns with the Tropica stuff, lowering the hardness and PH. My tapwater is extremely soft, doesn't even measure on standard test kits and about 15ppm on the tds meter so I was avoiding products that did that. How come you think it might be beneficial? I actually put some coral gravel discretely in the back of my tank, just a teaspoon full now and again just to counter the softness and dose 2 tsp of mag sulf on WC day. This routine keeps my TDS about 180-200 with a 50% weekly and a KH of around 3/4dgh, obviously the salts in the EI make up a fair proportion of the TDS.

That Ammonia thing looks ideal however I notice it says not to be used in an acidic tank. If I have extremely low hardness, substrate bringing to down and co2 surely this will pretty much result in a low PH most of the time. I could be wrong but my understanding was that Ammonia was only toxic in neutral or higher, below that it converts to something else no?

Aquarium soils are said to "lower hardness & pH" as a consequence of their ability to bind ions in solution ... any substrate that is not completely inert has some CEC (cation exchange capacity) - generally the more clay base, the more CEC (loads of article on this on the net ... maybe Darrel dw1305 has a good link ) ... since Calcium & Magnesium are some of the bound cations, "hardness" may lower ... the other part is the "exchange" - generally H+ ions are the traded out/up ions - so between these processes, you may observe hardness & pH effects with soils (relative to inert substrates)

BUT when you begin with very soft water, there isn't much in the water column to be adsorbed to the soil - instead the process tends the other direction, & soils may release various cations into the water column ... to make it all more complicated, planted tanks generally have various fertilizers added to the water column, also CO2

I tend to use products such as Tropica GS as this creates a nutrient rich "reservoir" layer below the substrate, this may be available to plants through root interaction, also there will be some slow leaching into the water column. I've recently tried adding some fine aragonite sand to this layer but can't really say if it has much effect (intuitively it seems a nice gesture ) - what is obvious is if your aragonite is off white & you uproot plants fortunately it also sinks away rather quickly (Carib Sea also offers a "Hawaiian black" but I've not seen it locally)

Re the Ammonia Alert, you might email Seachem on technical explanation (my tanks run ~pH 6 & it seems to detect ammonia just fine ... an ADA tank that I never added fish to as the ammonia release just never stopped; I've also observed slight green tints with new tank startups that resolve with water changes) - you're correct that ammonia is less (immediately) toxic at acidic pH but I still prefer tanks to be free of ammonia when fish & shrimp are present.



From another thread - oddly I "saw" this link in this thread

Hi ajm83,

I think that the comment of ceg4048 is directed to he fact that Ca and Mg exchanges each other in soils, understanding from your original post that you were concerned about the availability of Mg in soil because of this exchange. He is right in that context, and in aquatic plants the proportion Mg/Ca in soil is not critical, as Mg is available anyway in the water column.

About your questions, you are right when you talk about limited number of positions available for ion exchange. In fact, there are more rules about it. It is not only the number of places but also the type of iones that can be exchanged. For instance, there are three factors ruling here, mainly:

-The radius (size) of the ions involved in the exchange.
-The charges of those ions.
-The electrostatic charge of the surface.

The exchange happens in two different way:

-By replacing ions within the crystaline structure of the different minerals.
-By exchanging ions adsorbed to the surface of the minerals due to the local electrical balance.

The first one is usually quite independent of the media conditions and related to the stability of the crystaline structures. Because of the crystals have a given entropy, they tend to look for structures with lower level of energy, more stable, which can produce replacement of some ions. However, this is only possible if the ions being exchanged are similar in terms of size and charges. This phenomena, for instance, is the one that controls the exchange of Mg and Ca in dolomite and calcareous rocks, but is quite limited in terms of the exchanges that are allowed, being usually Mg/Ca and Na/K. There are more, of course, but those are the most commons.

The second one is not really related to the crystaline structure rather than the electrical charge balance of those structures, which generates different densities of negative/positive charges around the surface of the minerals. Some soils like clay, for example, have a lot of surface due to the small size of the crystal compounding the clay, as well as lot of electrostatic charges due to the different minerals composing it. In fact, this electric charges are a big part of the mechanical properties of clay.

The exchange of ions in the surface of those minerals is much more extensive than the one I mentioned, and it is also controlled by pH at a some point. Low pHs will favour the H+ occupying the negative charge locations, which means that the soil will tend to release elements already attached to the surface of the minerals, like Mg, Na, Ca, Be, Fe, Al, etc. On the other hand, high pHs will favour the negative locations being occupied by the same elements. Of course, when ions are released to the water they are available, but the recovery of the conditions does not mean that the same ions will attach to the same positions, as that depends on the relative concentration of ions in the water vs the ones in the soil.

In normal conditions, there is always a certain degree of exchanges of cations and anions with the soil, which is depending mainly on the temperature of the soil, pH conditions, as well as the composition of the water column. Temperature favours the exchange of ions, reason why some soils in the past were requiring some heating (not only to favour bacterial activity). pH, as mentioned, has impact in the availability of negative charges in the electrostatic surface of the minerals, and water composition drives what is replaced by what.

Going back to your question, if your water column is very rich in Ca ions, then it is likely Ca will take over the vacancies in the soil within the time, as the proportion will grant him more chances to get the negative charged locations available in the soil, but the main victim of that will be probably Mg, as is the second most common cations with 2 positive charges.

However, this is not necessarily negative. The ions need to be released to the water to be available to the roots, so the exchange ion helps to provide them with the elements and molecules they need, as not only cations or simple elements participate of this exchange, as organic compounds like NH4+, NO3-, PO4(3-) also play in this exchange, so a soils rich in some specific elements/molecules acts as fertilizer for the plants.

Of course, the process depletes the soil after some time, as there are outputs in the system: water changes, trimming of the plants, precipitation of minerals in other forms, etc. This can partly being compensated by adding liquid fertilizers to the water column which helps the deficiencies created in the time for this phenomena in the soil. In fact, the famous ADA step system is thought, precisely, to progressively cover these deficiencies generated in the soil, but relying more in the soil to fertilize the water column.

I hope this help and/or answer your question.

 

[alto]

Probably got about 5 Panda corys. 2x SAE (one false) and a couple of random Neons. I haven't replaced any losses for years since I knew this day was coming just didn't realise it was coming this soon!

Looking at the calculator on UKAPS I'm going to need about 14 ltrs so I guess 2x9ltr bags will be more than enough.

That's a low bioload which means that your filter N-cycle bacteria levels will also be fairly low but all the "starting components" should be there so once you begin "feeding", it should all go along fairly smoothly.
(Darrel has some excellent links on current aquarium N-cycle bacteria identities/activity)

Volume of substrate needed depends on how you scape - if you calculate your tank surface area, eg, 60cm x 45cm = 2700 x height of substrate, eg, 10cm = 27 000 ie 27 litres if you wanted an even 10cm height of substrate.
In general a sloped substrate is more esthetically pleasing as it adds perspective so if this ranges from a few cm at front to 10 - 20 cm at back, you may easily use slightly more than 2 bags - I'd suggest buying a third bag rather than running short (of course I always have more than 1 tank so never worry about not using any leftover materials )
You may also want to use just the Powder if you like to adjust scapes as much as I do

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Thanks for all the info Alto, substrates are something I've never really got into. Always used cat litter with Osmocote under previously and got away with it. Quite an expensive do buying made for purpose stuff

 

[alto]

Buy a cat & cat litter seems a lot more expensive

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I could imagine. I have a rabbit and that can put some food away. I read a lot of people had problems with cat litter with it being scented and the smell not going away. I personally haven’t had any issues with it before but I washed mine over and over again. Not taking any chances on this occasion though with my luck.

 

[dean]

Rabbit poo is supposed to be a great fert

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Well I've plenty here I you want any The rabbit seems to like it anyway. Rabbits are like deer, the food passes through their digestive system that fast it doesn't have time to absorb all the nutrients so it will eat them again.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Just thought I'd throw a couple of random pics in of the tank that's getting broke down and my office shrimp tank. Everyone likes to see a pic in a journal but unfortunately I've nothing to show yet. As you can see I haven't been showing the main tank any tlc for a while.

Probably about time to start making a plant list. Some I will be using from my old set up with some new ones I'll probably need some plant id's.

Not sure if I've mentioned this before while we're on the subject of apps. I find Hyplants quite handy for id'ing. It still needs some polishing but gets regular updates and some extra features so worth a look.

 

[alto]

Probably about time to start making a plant list.

decided on tank then? (quite likely I missed that )
Wood or stone as dominant hardscape? or both?
Fish?

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I'm about 90% sure on the ADA H. Emailed them today for a quote on tank+delivery and other suppliers I emailed confirmed they didn't do clear silicone. Friday I thought sod it what's a bit of black silicone, I could get both tank and cabinet on its way. In fact as I was staring at my existing tank and looking at the algae in behind the silicone I actually thought black would be the better option. Then while looking for inspiration for layouts I thought no, just get the ADA and have it done with then there's no regrets.

Now when I look at it being about £100 just for the substrate I don't know! Maybe I could use something cheaper as a first layer to bulk out but tis what will mix with what.

Regarding the scape, I don't really know yet. I have a 600 wide tank in my shed so I maybe start messing with that. It's not as deep as the tank I'm getting but at least I can get some ideas, photo them and then try re-creating when the equipment comes.

So far I'm thinking both stone and wood but not a lot. The plants being mainly the thing. Thinking a tall planted area to one side running down to a bit of a stone formation beach area at the opposite side.

That like my thoughts on which tank could all change on the day though

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

As for fish. I'll be moving most my RCS from the office tank into the new tank so shrimp friendly species a must. Definitely adding to my panda corys with more. Keeping the sae, probably some ottos and small shoaling fish. Need to re house a female krib which I've had for about 7 years which will be sad.
The office tank I'm going to try some different shrimp and use to top up RCS on th main tank.

 

[alto]

Now when I look at it being about £100 just for the substrate I don't know! Maybe I could use something cheaper as a first layer to bulk out but tis what will mix with what.

If you plan on a rocky beach area, you can remove this volume of the tank from your calculation & then 18 litres of Tropica soil would likely suit any scape you've in mind.
If you do mix substrates, I'd follow the "different substrate in stockings" (or good strong mesh between the layers) - very frustrating to accidentally mix substrates that are not easily separated later on.
If you're just looking for added height, a larger, more porous substrate is a good idea - just make sure it's not given to floating
(there're a couple threads on here where some sort of pumice was used, all looked well at first, then within a couple days, the upheaval happened)

If you later change your mind on the beach area, it's easy to siphon out sand & drop in more aqua-soil.
(OK I usually remove the fish but that's because I feel they're less stressed hanging out in a quite hands-free zone ... and I like to take my time, maybe change my mind a couple times ... fish are all snug in their temporary bin)

Need to re house a female krib which I've had for about 7 years which will be sad.

Just get her one of those plug & play tanks that will fit into some obscure space
George Farmer has some on his YouTube channel, most are also listed here in journals


When she passes, it becomes a quarantine/hospital tank

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Got nothing much to add here other than I'm a few quid lighter than before I started this journal Got my stuff ordered, went for the ADA 60H in the end up so at least I can put together a hardware list of the proposed tank. Also working on a list of plant species which I will be keeping from the existing tank and some new ones Ill be looking out for.

In the meantime I've give the existing tank a thorough clip out and thinned out to the healthiest looking specimens ready for swapping over and raised my shrimp tank up a degree. Going to start acclimatising them over the next couple of week. I run the shrimps slightly cooler at 19/20 deg but I'll probably run the main tank about 24.

Regarding bulking out the substrate, I was toying with the idea of siphoning out some of the cat litter and putting it in stockings to add a bit of height and also aid with the maturing process. Not sure if when the Tropica settles they may keep showing up though/

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Still no movement this end which is probably a good thing as I haven't done the work in the house yet!
Just waiting of my 60H to turn up which is in ready to be dispatched and my cabinet turned up with damage. Soon as I saw it on opening of the box I was hoping it was somewhere you can't see but it turned out to be the door and visible.

All I can do is preparation for now. Cranked up another degree on the shrimp tank which is acting as a plant nursery for now. My main tank which usually runs on three t8 tubes I've thoroughly clipped out and knocked one of the tubes off but carried on ei dosing. Not sure of the science behind it but I'm thinking let growth slow down and let the plants have a gorge on nutrients so they are at their best when swapped over....plus it saves electric

Other than that I went with 2x9ltr bags of tropica and 1x3ltr bag of tropica fine. Hopefully this should be enough substrate and I can use the finer stuff along the front for a carpet.

Speaking of which, looking for some hc or tennelus if anybody has any as well as something red, any species. I can keep these in my shrimp tank which is booming at the moment since the addition of my new led light until I set the tank up. If anyone has some give me a shout.

Also decided not to use any of the wendtil and only one of my swords so if anyone is after a load of both let me know but these will only be available on the final strip down. Leaving them in the main tank for the existing fish until the new ones cycled ready for them to move home.

 

[paulharris]

HAHA, yeah never thought about it that way but now you mention it. I was eager to get this show on the road so I never thought about it too much. Maybe if I explain the logic behind it though it might make a bit more sense.

I've messed with planted tanks for over 20 years back in the mercury vapour pendant days and wrong information. Back in the day my first attempt I went all in with Dennerle stuff who were the world leaders at the time arguably. They were the go to people if you wanted a decent planted tank before I'd even heard of Amano. Since then my life took over and I've messed with attempts on the cheap, everything 2nd hand or off Ebay to varying levels of success. Then I found UKAPS and replanted a non planted Aqua One 850 and spent years looking at other peoples amazing set ups and doing a bit of dreaming...One day.

Now I've finally got the chance, I've made all the mistakes possible and wished I'd done things different from the start but not had the time or money to do anything about it so I've just had an extremely mediocre planted tank sitting in my dining room for about 12 years. Hence the beginning of the end, I'm ending that tank and beginning a new one that I've always wanted. Sort of and ending with experimenting with plants although I doubt that ever ends. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination by a long way but I seem to have mastered the fundamentals of growing plants (The easier species anyway) so now I'm hoping to combine what I've learned so far with some decent equipment and rather than just grow plants to grow them in a manner correctly laid out to create an eye catching display that I can be proud of instead of drooling over other peoples.

Open for suggestions on a better title though.

This is a familiar story I have also benefited from advice from UKAPS. Key items for me were; Fire extinguishers for CO2, dry ferts from TNC and the article on light quality and suppliers of florescent tubes. these 3 articles resolved issues that I had been tormented by for years and saved a great deal of money

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Yeah, the members of UKAPS have learned me a lot. Hopefully I can apply that knowledge and create a decent display.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Nothing much going on this end, apologies but this is going to be a slow burner. Every time I set some time aside work seems to go mental. Anyway, took the opportunity of a long weekend to try and get some stuff done. Have to say broke eggs with a stick, as ethical strip downs goes everything went well. All fish apart from some Panda Corys ended up given to a friend. The plants I've set back up at my lock up and the garden loved the much needed watering it got. Not sure if I mentioned earlier but the plan to have the two tanks running parallel went out the window when my missus decided she thinks the tank is going back in the same position as the old one!

IMG_20160530_142637 by AWB70, on Flickr

Everything stripped down, cleaned and out in the sun drying. Even washed and laid out the gravel on a tarpaulin to dry and bag up ready for a future project.

Plant tank by AWB70, on Flickr

Plants all in the old tank as an holding pen. No point buying everything new. I probably will re-use most of the species except the crypt wendt. They grow like nuts with long roots. I tend to find that you pull one out and it rips up other plants from a distance from where it was. The advantage of this I reckon is I can get my plant collection together, adding some more species and the plants are there and good to go on the day I decide to plant. Another advantage is I can bomb them with some co2 and higher dose LC so they should be in good nick when they move across. Just running 1xT8 6hrs per day with a Koralia for a bit of movement and co2 distribution.

IMG_20160529_195919 by AWB70, on Flickr

IMG_20160530_175306 by AWB70, on Flickr

Panda Corys moved over into shrimp tank. Pandas and RCS are going to be the first inhabitants of the new tank. The RCS I keep have never seen a fish before in their lives so it won't do either of them any harm to get acquainted. Not sure of other fauna. Small shoaling fish still endecided.

But more importantly....
Photo 30-05-2016, 21 02 39 by AWB70, on Flickr

The new tank is in position! or is it? Missus keeps looking at it and mentioning it might be better somewhere else. not going to commit for now until it's a definite.

Photo 30-05-2016, 21 03 07 by AWB70, on Flickr

It's all getting exciting now though, really pleased with the tank, cabinet and light. Now I just need to add some plant species and start working on my nemesis, scaping layout. At least with not having to run parallel I can take some time getting things right. Watch this space.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Anyone know where to get clear 16/22mm tubing? Seen a few on ebay but not sure if it's fit for purpose. Also looking for some cuttings of a red stem plant and possibly HC or similar carpeting plant. I think so far I'm trying to achieve a densely planted, tall plant side running down to a carpeted area. Still just surfing for inspiration at the moment, so much choice.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

This is harder than I thought, it's ok getting the hardscape the way you want it but it's imagining how it will look with some plants round it. I suspect if I don't make things tall it will be lost when the plants grow.

WIN_20160604_21_37_55_Pro by AWB70, on Flickr

WIN_20160604_21_30_14_Pro by AWB70, on Flickr

WIN_20160604_21_29_40_Pro (2) by AWB70, on Flickr

WIN_20160604_21_22_56_Pro by AWB70, on Flickr

Any suggestions? I might even have to turn the whole thing mirror image yet so the pipes can go to the other side so they are less on show as you walk in the room. Odd, maybe its with me being right handed but it seems more natural for the equipment to be entering left as I face it.