TNC Complete dosing

[matty_]

Hi all, i have had my tank running for close to 3 months now and have been having BBA, Diatoms and GSA, but the plants themselves are not growing as they was prior to previous cuts, the rotala especially seems rather stunted and although it does grow the leaves are smaller with very slow growth. I have co2 on 2 hours before the lights are on and the drop checker is green by the time the lights are on with it going a lighter green a couple hours after.

The TNC Complete dosing though i'm not sure about the dosing as TNC suggests 1ml per 10 litres which can be increased x3 to get a dosage similar to EI levels so this would be 27ml for my 90L tank which i would dose over 7 days so 3.9ml a day , although Rotalabutterfly is showing the following below so i'm not too sure what i should be dosing here. I was following the Rotalabutterfly of 11.3ml daily but the plant growth has not been great and with co2 which i think is stable im not too sure why i'm not getting great growth sadly with a decent bit of algae especially BBA

Sorry if this is a stupid question, i did search the forum prior to posting but there was a fair few conflicting posts so just wanted to see what people thought. Thank you

 

[castle]

A fully tank shot, and pictures of any effected areas you want to discuss will help 👍

 

[matty_]

A fully tank shot, and pictures of any effected areas you want to discuss will help 👍

For sure i have attached some pictures to give an idea of the plant health/ algae, appreciate it

View attachment 1707844504284.jpegView attachment 1707844511896.jpegView attachment 1707844523416.jpeg
View attachment 1707844540119.jpegView attachment 1707844556354.jpegView attachment 1707844568937.jpeg

 

[Tim Harrison]

I’ve had tanks as heavily planted as yours and needed a weeks stated TNC Complete dose every day. I wouldn’t put too much stock in online or retailer info. The later is a rough guide. Just observe your plants closely. They will tell you what they need.

 

[matty_]

I’ve had tanks as heavily planted as yours and needed a weeks stated TNC Complete dose every day. I wouldn’t put too much stock in online or retailer info. The later is a rough guide. Just observe your plants closely. They will tell you what they need.

Gotcha thanks for the Insight 👍 It was just alittle discouraging to see the poor growth after the trims and now the algae but I'll change one thing at a time and continue to monitor it, if that means raising the TNC Complete dosage that's perfectly fine.

One of my concerns was hight nitrates which is hard to determine with the API kit but i would say it's in the 40-80 range unless I do multiple WC's a week to reduce the nitrates, phosphate levels are around 1.

 

[hypnogogia]

with the API kit but i would say it's in the 40-80 range

I’d ignore those measurements and dispense with them altogether. Nitrate testing is unreliable and your plants will tell you of you have enough.

 

[matty_]

I’d ignore those measurements and dispense with them altogether. Nitrate testing is unreliable and your plants will tell you of you have enough.

Yeah it definitely isn't great I don't usually bother only prior to stocking the tank to make sure it's cycled

What would you suggest for plants that are very slow growing and some stems that are showing signs of stunted and curling growth such as the Rotala stems? Some of those stems had transparent leaves also along with the downward curling of the leaves

Might be hard to see/ tell in this picture but some of the Rotala green are transparent

View attachment 1000015428.jpg

BBA always seems to be an issue for me too, in my previous planted tank it got pretty bad, although I've tried to have the co2 as dialed in as I can without any fluctuations

 

[John q]

I've tried to have the co2 as dialed in as I can without any fluctuations

Sadly I think this is the root of your problems, not the amount of fertilizers you dose.
Check how the flow is distributed throughout the tank, that's the answer.

 

[tam]

As much as I agree nitrate testing isn't particularly accurate, but it gives you a rough ball park. I'd still be a bit interested in how you are running in the ballpark of 40-80ppm when dosing 11ml of on TNC a day - which the rotala butterfly calculator suggests adds about 1.8ppm (so roughly 14ppm per week).

Forget the exact numbers, if you are struggling to keep your nitrates down below 40-80ppm with one water change when you have a heavily planted tank something seems a bit off.

How much water are you changing per week?

 

[John q]

. I was following the Rotalabutterfly of 11.3ml daily

when dosing 11ml of on TNC a day - which the rotala butterfly calculator suggests adds about 1.8ppm (so roughly 14ppm per week).

As much as I agree nitrate testing isn't particularly accurate,

11ml of tnc daily in a 90L tank is adding 7 x 11 = 77mls of tnc per week, which equates to 12.83N or 56 No3 weekly.
I suspect the nitrate test isn't that far out on this occasion (accumulation) or maybe I've miss read this.

 

[matty_]

Sadly I think this is the root of your problems, not the amount of fertilizers you dose.
Check how the flow is distributed throughout the tank, that's the answer.

I will try to get a video today to show the current flow in the tank, I'm using an Oase 350 on full with the spray bar facing the front of the tank, although I will be removing the inline co2 for a reactor I made previously so I'll have that on its own pump so it doesn't reduce the filter flow so I should have better flow this week once I install that

I did move the drop checker from the front side of the tank to the back and the colour changed to green the same speed as it was at the front so it does seem like the co2 is distributed ok, but ofcourse I'll try to improve it further

I did have a skimmer running in the tank but I had to remove it as it was pretty noisy and harder to stay set correct, this was removing the bio film I get on the surface. I'm going to try the aqua neo skimmer to see if that works ok though

 

[matty_]

As much as I agree nitrate testing isn't particularly accurate, but it gives you a rough ball park. I'd still be a bit interested in how you are running in the ballpark of 40-80ppm when dosing 11ml of on TNC a day - which the rotala butterfly calculator suggests adds about 1.8ppm (so roughly 14ppm per week).

Forget the exact numbers, if you are struggling to keep your nitrates down below 40-80ppm with one water change when you have a heavily planted tank something seems a bit off.

How much water are you changing per week?

Usually I change around 40L per week and then any smaller top ups in the week from evaporation, so I would say around 43L in total. This week though I have changed around 100L just to try and get the nitrates down as it seems like it was running away from looking at the test kit

With N you have to times it by 4 or 4.4 right? As I dose that 11.3ml daily it does reach quite a high N value, which it seems the plants aren't up taking that well or there is excess from something else which I thought maybe was the soil leaching still?

 

[matty_]

11ml of tnc daily in a 90L tank is adding 7 x 11 = 77mls of tnc per week, which equates to 12.83N or 56 No3 weekly.
I suspect the nitrate test isn't that far out on this occasion (accumulation) or maybe I've miss read this.

Yeah I did read that so I'm adding quite alot of nitrate so the slightly stunted plants shouldn't be from a fertiliser deficiency really unless a trace is low. My KH is 1 and GH around 6. So it would leave light, co2 or flow here. The light is a wrgb 2 pro and I run it around 60% (R 70%, G 35%, B 30%, W 30%)

Would a high nitrate potentially cause this BBA outbreak too? The it's on a few of the plants at the front as I shown in the pictures and the rocks too, although most importantly I do try and focus on the plant health and hopefully the algae will lose that battle 🤞

Here is a picture of the tank prior to any stunted growth or transparent leaves, there wasn't any BBA also here. I added three stem plants at the back since this picture, foreground plant and last week a floating plant. Would be lovely to get it back to this health

 

[tam]

Usually I change around 40L per week and then any smaller top ups in the week from evaporation, so I would say around 43L in total. This week though I have changed around 100L just to try and get the nitrates down as it seems like it was running away from looking at the test kit

With N you have to times it by 4 or 4.4 right? As I dose that 11.3ml daily it does reach quite a high N value, which it seems the plants aren't up taking that well or there is excess from something else which I thought maybe was the soil leaching still?

Sorry, yes, you are right I should have multiplied it. Even then to have that much nitrate does seem to imply your plants aren't using a lot. Perhaps alternating with TNC lite or something else to just top up micro would be an option?

 

[John q]

Yeah I did read that so I'm adding quite alot of nitrate so the slightly stunted plants shouldn't be from a fertiliser deficiency really unless a trace is low.

I think with the amount of fertilizer you are adding, plus the fact you have aquasoil imo rules out the possibility of nutrient deficiencies.
This is what you are adding weekly.

So well above Ei levels.

My KH is 1 and GH around 6.

Are you you using Ro water and adding an off the shelf remineraliser to achieve these numbers?

Would a high nitrate potentially cause this BBA outbreak too?

No, in my limited experience nitrate levels have very little correlation with BBA. There is lots of discussion regards what is the cause and in general organic waste build up, areas of high flow, fluctuating levels of co2 and poor plant growth seem to be the main driving factors that encourage it.

Here is a picture of the tank prior to any stunted growth or transparent leaves

Looks lovely.

My gut suspicion is that the tank has become a victim of its own success. Increased plant mass will undoubtedly have had an effect on the circulation around the tank, but if you're confident flow is good, not to strong and not to weak then maybe we can rule that out.

The second observation for me is the likely nutrient levels in the tank due to accumulation. You could well be at 80ppm + No3, 80ppm + K. Are these levels of nutrients detrimental to a planted tank? I'm not sure, but I am sure to succeed with these levels of nutrients one really needs to be on point with every aspect of keeping a planted tank.

My suggestion would be to try and reset the tank with a couple of back to back water changes (50 ~ 60%) I'd also suggest doing a big trim and try thinning out some of the densely packed stems at the back.

Dosing wise which was the initial question you asked; 77ml per week isn't needed, try 27ml P/W and adjust up or down as required.

 

[matty_]

Sorry, yes, you are right I should have multiplied it. Even then to have that much nitrate does seem to imply your plants aren't using a lot. Perhaps alternating with TNC lite or something else to just top up micro would be an option?

Yeah i did think of adding TNC Lite as these nitrates are pretty high although i think i would then be limiting Phosphate potentially?

 

[matty_]

I think with the amount of fertilizer you are adding, plus the fact you have aquasoil imo rules out the possibility of nutrient deficiencies.
This is what you are adding weekly.

I agree i did think that was the case but when i was seeing this stunted growth it was alittle confusing as i think the plants have what they need but clearly i'm doing something not quite right which made me post here to get others insights which is appreciated

Are you you using Ro water and adding an off the shelf remineraliser to achieve these numbers?

I use tap water but honestly the levels are really good, my tapwater is soft so its around 5ppm Nitrate and 3 KH and around 5 GH, but the Tropica soil buffers that KH to 1.

No, in my limited experience nitrate levels have very little correlation with BBA. There is lots of discussion regards what is the cause and in general organic waste build up, areas of high flow, fluctuating levels of co2 and poor plant growth seem to be the main driving factors that encourage it.

Gotcha thanks I have read alot about it and it seems to be alot of people velieve its co2 related, either low co2 levels or fluctuating co2, since the BBA started i did start having increased nitrate which did make me think it was due to that but that likely isn't the cause. The diatom outbreak did happen around the same time too, the tank was clear for maybe 1 month or so and the plants were showing good healthy growth too, then after that the diatoms kicked in and then a few tufts of BBA which is growing sadly on a few of the leaves as you saw

Although this filter is new i did add media from my previous tank which i had running for about a year prior to stripping it down and starting again

The second observation for me is the likely nutrient levels in the tank due to accumulation. You could well be at 80ppm + No3, 80ppm + K. Are these levels of nutrients detrimental to a planted tank? I'm not sure, but I am sure to succeed with these levels of nutrients one really needs to be on point with every aspect of keeping a planted tank.

100% yeah which i why i was doing a few more water changes this week to just try and reduce that level, even if the test kit is pretty trash it did show it was high atleast to give an idea. I did read that around 30ppm is the ideal value in a planted tank, not sure if thats true or not but that wouldn't be a bad value for me to reach each week, although with accumulation im sure that might be alittle higher some weeks

My suggestion would be to try and reset the tank with a couple of back to back water changes (50 ~ 60%) I'd also suggest doing a big trim and try thinning out some of the densely packed stems at the back.

I can drop the nitrate pretty quickly with water changes so as you suggested doing a couple back to back water changes I will do this later today after the co2/ light period and see if i can get those nitrates in check alittle.

Dosing wise which was the initial question you asked; 77ml per week isn't needed, try 27ml P/W and adjust up or down as required.

Perfect I have setup dosing to be 3.9ml each day which is just slightly more at 27.3ml weekly, this should give me around 18.2ppm of Nitrate weekly. If i have to swap over to dry ferts and mix my own to tailor the nitrate level i can do that, although i was trying to keep it simple with the pre mix this time 😁

This is the PH chart of the tank during the day, i dont get a full 1PH drop as the PH doesn't really get much higher than 6 in the day unless I have the surface of the tank with alot of agitation

 

[John q]

I can drop the nitrate pretty quickly with water changes so as you suggested doing a couple back to back water changes I will do this later today

Don't get to fixated on the nitrate levels alone. The idea of large back to back water changes is to remove build ups of anything that's accumulating in the water column, including any organic waste.

the PH doesn't really get much higher than 6 in the day unless I have the surface of the tank with alot of agitation

Well surface agitation isn't a bad thing, ensuring adequate levels of oxygen are maintained in the tank requires water movement to circulate from the surface and to the lower levels of the tank, we often call this effective gaseous exchange.

Do you know what the degassed tank water ph is? Ie remove some water from the tank and leave it in a glass for 24hrs, then check the ph.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

and last week a floating plant. Would be lovely to get it back to this health

What does the <"floating plant look like">? Because it has access to <"atmospheric CO2 (and first dibs on the light)"> any deficiency symptoms will be mineral nutrient (fertiliser) related. <"Global Monitoring Laboratory - Carbon Cycle Greenhouse Gases">

Have a look at <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">, it is quite a long thread, but should cover all the bits of interest.

All floating plants fulfill this same role, the major advantage of <"Amazon Frogbit"> (Hydrocharis (Limnobium) laevigata) is <"its green leaf">.

cheers Darrel

 

[richardcunliffe]

Here is a picture of the tank prior to any stunted growth

That is a nice boulder! (also plants looking lovely )