To sump or n̶o̶t̶ to sump? (journal)

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Have an 130x50x50 rimless display tank and I'm thinking about changing to a sump. Main reason is that I really hate my Oase bm600 filter, it sucks in lots of air and its a pain to start up without water leaking from everywhere. Already opened the whole had unit up cleaned everything and put it back to gather it still it a pain in the ass. Also it sits in a rather inconvenient place where I have to tilt the whole thing to its side to get it out for cleaning. Now I alot of air trapped up in the co2 reactor rendering the reactor useless.

So my thoughts where on getting a sump I like the idea of more water volume and easy cleaning access. I would like to use it with an hang on overflow wouldn't want to empty the whole tank for drilling holes..I don't really like the look of them but I will try to hide it behind emersed growing plants or something..

But how is it with noise, I love to listen to music in a quite room free from distracting noises? (Not that it is now with the current air sucking filter.)
What are your thoughts on this should I invest in it or is it a better idea to buy an other canister?
 

Wookii

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I'm going through the same thought process as you regarding a possible future tank of similar dimensions. There are a lot of factors in favour of a sump if you can get past the possible initial complexity of set-up.

There is a lot of inspiration to be had from @Geoffrey Rea 's journal tank - well worth a read through if you haven't already: Taking a sump. Back in five minutes...
 
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Yes I had read that journal it is very informative. I'm also looking at the fluval fx6 now since there is an good offer now.
But for sumps the option of having an extra plant holding tank also got my intrest.. And an fluval doesn't have an build in heater..
 
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Read alot about it looked at tons of youtube vids.. The https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/planted-tank-sump-design-need-your-feedback.50813/ was very helpful also.

I decided to give it a go.. Now was looking at pumps and Aquamedic DC Runner 3.2 looks like an good option, it is flow controllable and 3000L/h looks more then what I ever need for this tank.
Still don't know what overflow I'm going to get there are not much options in the Netherlands at least not I can find on the web..
 

Wookii

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Good man, I’m going to follow your progress with interest.

What other pumps have you considered?

It would be great if you could post details of your designs for the sump and pipe work as you come up with them, either here or in a journal.
 
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Yes ive looked at Jebao DCP3000 and the Eheim CompactON 3000. The Aquamedic maybe a bit higher in the price range but it does look solid and I got good experience with aquamedic equipment so far..

For overflow boxes. So far all I could find here are the Aquamedic OFB and Skimz OM and thats it. Strange thought that there where a lot more of options available in europe.. I'm even considering to drill a hole in the tank as there are really slick options like
The Modularmarine low profile overflow box, or the Eshopps Eclipse. But only thing is not available here! :banghead:
 

Wookii

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Yes ive looked at Jebao DCP3000 and the Eheim CompactON 3000. The Aquamedic maybe a bit higher in the price range but it does look solid and I got good experience with aquamedic equipment so far.

For overflow boxes. So far all I could find here are the Aquamedic OFB and Skimz OM and thats it. Strange thought that there where a lot more of options available in europe.. I'm even considering to drill a hole in the tank as there are really slick options like
The Modularmarine low profile overflow box, or the Eshopps Eclipse. But only thing is not available here! :banghead:

I know there must be thousands of people out there running hang on overflow solutions without an issue, and I know Geoffrey Rea is happy that his is virtually fault proof, but personally I’ll definitely be going for a drilled version. I just wouldn’t be able to rest easy with even the slightest risk of siphon failure on a hang on unit.

I like the look of the Eshopps unit - I would want a clear one so I could see what was going on in there. The Modularmarine ones appear to be black other than the lids.

On the pumps, I like Aquamedic stuff too, usually very good quality. I think pumps used frequently by the marine guys is a good place to look, since they use sumps more commonly, but I guess pond pumps could also be a consideration. I was quite surprised by the lack of option from Eheim. Like you, I think DC pumps to enable flow control are important. Balancing inflow rates I suspect will be an important part of set up.
 
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Just counted what the cost would be if ordering from the US vs the hang on back from here, and i must say ordering from the the US is cheaper..

The modular marine looks nice cause its so thin.. But I like the transparency and especially the red pipe of the eshopps :)
Bare in mind I will fit it to the side of my tank insgtead of the back.

Hope 12mm glass would be easy enough to drill.. I'm handy enough to build and repair alot of stuff myself but never drilled a tank and since its my main tank i'm quite scared for it.. Already checked if its not tempered..
 
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It would be great if you could post details of your designs for the sump and pipe work as you come up with them, either here or in a journal.

Well lets continue my journal here! I started one of this tank with this at the barrreport and thats more or less a ghost forum now, pity I learned allot there.. Maybe some of the mods can move it to Journals?

Here are the pics from how I started till how it sort of looks now.
48536435722_4df26c1ee2_b.jpg


48883985833_e1444f607d_b.jpg


Dimensions as already said above are 130x50x50cm.
Some info about gear: 3x Aquamedic Qube plant 50. Co2 Aquamedic reactor with an modded UP aqua regulator with 2kg bottles. Oase biomaster 600 2x Hydoror koralia nano wavemakers. Dosing with own mixed ferts based on EI.

I also ordered the Aquamedic dc pump now.. So as they say here 'De kogel is door de kerk.'.. :)
 

Wookii

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Nice tank - that’s a lot of Buce growth!

In terms of drilling the hole, I drilled one in my current 600mm tank. It was fairly straight forward but took quite a long time to get through the glass - and that must be only about 4mm or so. But that was drilling vertically whilst the tank was empty, which allows you to use a wooden guide and washer to create a well of water to lubricate and cool the cutting.

If you’re cutting whilst the tank is in situ, you need to plan it carefully so you can constantly wet the cutter as it’s cutting the glass. Assuming your tank is 12-15mm, it going to take some time to get through it I should think. Plus you need two holes!

Do you plan to only outflow from the tank via the overflow?

This is something that I have been thinking about for a while. The one benefit of canisters is that the extraction point from the tank is usually down near the substrate level, so a lot of detritus gets removed, where an overflow doesn’t achieve that.

When I research it, I found that it is possible to have a standard tube outflow with a sump, you just have to add a small hole in the outflow pipe just below the intended water level, to break the siphon in the event of a pump failure.
 
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Nice tank - that’s a lot of Buce growth!.
Thanks! Yes so much for slow growing buces with me they almost grow as fast as limnophila :lol:

In terms of drilling the hole, I drilled one in my current 600mm tank. It was fairly straight forward but took quite a long time to get through the glass - and that must be only about 4mm or so. But that was drilling vertically whilst the tank was empty, which allows you to use a wooden guide and washer to create a well of water to lubricate and cool the cutting.

I'm kind of scared of doing so.. Applying no pressure and letting the drill to do the work but I have seen other people on you tube doing it, for keeping it cool I let my wife stand by with an presurised water spraywith a lot of towels on the table. Should I use normal cool water or ice water?. I don't see no one applying some kind of board to the back with clamps is that wrong to do? Some use painting tape to hold the back..

And no was not planning to add an return pipe so far. I vacuum what I can biweekly don't think it will make much of a difference mulm is building up in corners now anyway..
 

Wookii

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I'm kind of scared of doing so.. Applying no pressure and letting the drill to do the work but I have seen other people on you tube doing it, for keeping it cool I let my wife stand by with an presurised water spraywith a lot of towels on the table. Should I use normal cool water or ice water?. I don't see no one applying some kind of board to the back with clamps is that wrong to do? Some use painting tape to hold the back..

And no was not planning to add an return pipe so far. I vacuum what I can biweekly don't think it will make much of a difference mulm is building up in corners now anyway..

I would think you would be best with some large buckets beneath where you are cutting, and create something to direct the flow of water into the bucket (some sheets of plastic or foil taped to the glass perhaps), then keep emptying them as you need to.

Then you can have a small continuous flow of water. If it were me, I’d make my jig/template hole in a piece of MDF as per the videos you’ve no doubt seen, and add a small hole just above the main hole to take some airline or CO2 tubing, and pump a constant small trickle of water through it and down over the cutting hole.

You don’t need to chill the water, it’s not so much for heat as lubrication. The diamond hole cutters kind of grind the glass away, rather than slicing through it as they would with wood. So the water lubrication keeps the grinding smooth and prevents the cutter from snagging and cracking the glass from excessive force.

In terms of the inside of the tank, I personally applied a layer of tape to the inside, then clamped on another piece of MDF for support. You’re also going to want something on the inside to prevent all that powered glass filled water going into the tank once you break through.
 

Wookii

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Sorry I've just realised that you guys have bought the Medium sized Eshopps overflow box, so only one hole to cut, not two as in the larger one - my mistake.

What do you intend to do in terms of the outflow pipes from the overflow box? I assume one is an emergency overflow, but the for second it seems there are a few options such as a a standard open outflow, or a Durso style outlet to minimise noise?

I'm also interested how you go about determining overflow inlet height versus main water level height in the tank? (Edit: I guess that is determined by the weir height on the inside - it that adjustable on these Eshopps units?)
 
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I would think you would be best with some large buckets beneath where you are cutting, and create something to direct the flow of water into the bucket (some sheets of plastic or foil taped to the glass perhaps), then keep emptying them as you need to.
Jup it will be a messy job but I flooded the place more then once so i;m used to it :)

Just found and good guideline for drilling holes.
https://inlandcraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/how-to-drill-holes-in-aquariums.pdf
For who is interested.

The water level height in the tank is not adjustable.. Once you drill it it is fixed so you need to think about it carefully today I was checking the the Eshopps site and discovered the Prodigy series thats has an adjustable inflow thats you can switch around.. But it cost a bit more and has an lower flow spec.

What do you intend to do in terms of the outflow pipes from the overflow box? I assume one is an emergency overflow, but the for second it seems there are a few options such as a a standard open outflow, or a Durso style outlet to minimise noise?

That I really don't know yes one stays emergency the other one well I will have to try out probably something like durso but I will try out what suits me best and of course noise limitation will be my biggest drive.
 

Wookii

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The water level height in the tank is not adjustable.. Once you drill it it is fixed so you need to think about it carefully today I was checking the the Eshopps site and discovered the Prodigy series thats has an adjustable inflow thats you can switch around.. But it cost a bit more and has an lower flow spec.

It’s a shame they made it bloody orange!!

So I guess the weir height is tricky. You obviously want the water level as high as possible on a rimless tank, but you also need the top of the weir below the rim of the glass in the event the weir gets blocked, in which case the water can flow over the top.

I guess depending on pump flow rate the water level will be partially up the weir. What kind of gap do you think you’ll end up with between the water level and the tank rim?

That I really don't know yes one stays emergency the other one well I will have to try out probably something like durso but I will try out what suits me best and of course noise limitation will be my biggest drive.

Yeah, noise is the thing I guess. I read a little more about it today, and as long as the main outflow doesn’t draw in air (due to the water level being high enough) it shouldn’t make any noise. That said some people appear to set the flow so the emergency overflow is running at a trickle too - so I’m not exactly sure how the thing is supposed to work!
 
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Haha orange is one of my favorite colors.. But it does look weird on an overflow, they make a low profile overflow but if your whole back is black you can see orange thru the cut out from the weir.

About the water level I want is as high as possible but I have to look how to achieve it when that box arrives. The mall has two pre measured lines set at 1" and 1/2".. Ive seen a guy put the weir really high so that it stick out above the rim to achieve the highest water level possible but it doesn't look like a smart idea there is no buffer at all in your tank if something goes wrong.. I think it is best that you have pump shut off when the weir blocks and leave some to buffer water that your pump must put up before it drains the sump to shut off..
Ive read the suggestion from @zozo to put your pump on a block higher in the sump ot to use a floating switch..
 

zozo

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use a floating switch..

Raising the pump in the sump and take a pump with dry-run protection is a very secure option.

Floating switch i tried for a while, it does work but has a major flaw. This is when the pump stops the tank drains again towards the sump. This raises the switch and starts the pump again, 30 seconds later it stops the pump again, And so on and on. Switching the pump on and off every 30 seconds, this x 9 hours when you're not around can damage a pump beyond repair.

It took me 2 pumps to find the reason, wake up one morning before the pump wore out. This helped me to develop the more obvious and better idea to raise the pump in the sump. Then it takes a very long time before a pump runs dry.
 

Wookii

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Raising the pump in the sump and take a pump with dry-run protection is a very secure option.

Floating switch i tried for a while, it does work but has a major flaw. This is when the pump stops the tank drains again towards the sump. This raises the switch and starts the pump again, 30 seconds later it stops the pump again, And so on and on. Switching the pump on and off every 30 seconds, this x 9 hours when you're not around can damage a pump beyond repair.

It took me 2 pumps to find the reason, wake up one morning before the pump wore out. This helped me to develop the more obvious and better idea to raise the pump in the sump. Then it takes a very long time before a pump runs dry.

Apologies, I think I’m being thick here Marcel, I don’t understand the point regarding raising the pump higher in the sump? I would have thought it would run dry sooner if the water level in the sump is decreasing?

What would cause the sump to run dry in the first place though, an overflow blockage?

I think I must be missing some of the conversation/explanation in between here, so please feel free to point me to another thread if you’ve already explained it there.
 
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