To sump or n̶o̶t̶ to sump? (Swan Lake)

[Luciën]

That seems a very good reason not to use a floating switch didn't thought of it that way..

A quote from the pumps manual. "There is an automatic shut off if there is no water for 2 minutes. Pull the plug and then re-insert it
to take the controller back into operation."
So as far it looks that it is save for that..

@Wookii, what he means is that if you have a surface left of 20l and a sumb of 40l that if you place it above the middel of the sumb you only pump up <20l back in to the aquarium before the pumps shuts off. So you never can flood the tank in case of an block in you overflow.
Although it's best for the herby style overflow to pick up the first problem it is nice to have some extra insurance..

 

[zozo]

I don’t understand the point regarding raising the pump higher in the sump?

Some people have flooded the living room because of an overflow blockage. To prevent this ever from happening you need to calculate a little bit volumes.

Volume 1 is how much extra do you need to add to flood the tank completely? For example, 2 cm from the top rim in a 100x50cm tank is 10 litres extra and the tank will overflow.

Volume 2 is how much water is in the sump? If you have 50 litres in the sump and the pump stand on the bottom and you overflow blocks or the syphon stops for whatever reason. never say never. you only need 10 litres to flood the tank but there will be coming 50 litres from the sump. The conclusion is, wet floor..

The solution is, raise the pump high enough that it cannot pump more water volume from the sump < volume 1. that's the point.


Visa versa same thing, if the pump stops, there will be X volume run back to the sump. Not to overflow the sump it needs enough free buffer space to collect the volume running back during a power out.

You can install al kinds of electronic gadgets alarm bells and whistles for that. But doing simple volume calculations will prevent it for free.

 

[Wookii]

what he means is that if you have a surface left of 20l and a sumb of 40l that if you place it above the middel of the sumb you only pump up <20l back in to the aquarium before the pumps shuts off. So you never can flood the tank in case of an block in you overflow.
Although it's best for the herby style overflow to pick up the first problem it is nice to have some extra insurance..

Some people have flooded the living room because of an overflow blockage. To prevent this ever from happening you need to calculate a little bit volumes.

Volume 1 is how much extra do you need to add to flood the tank completely? For example, 2 cm from the top rim in a 100x50cm tank is 10 litres extra and the tank will overflow.

Volume 2 is how much water is in the sump? If you have 50 litres in the sump and the pump stand on the bottom and you overflow blocks or the syphon stops for whatever reason. never say never. you only need 10 litres to flood the tank but there will be coming 50 litres from the sump. The conclusion is, wet floor..

The solution is, raise the pump high enough that it cannot pump more water volume from the sump < volume 1. that's the point.

Ah I see - thank for clarifying - I was being a bit dense afterall lol - in my defence it was late last night when I read that.

I know you can never say never to the possibility of a blocked overflow, but say you have a drilled overflow, so no risk of siphon break as with a hang on one. You position the top of the weir just below the tank rim, so that can overflow if the weir gets blocked. Say you have the largest version of the Eshopps overflow that has two large drilled tank holes, and three large outflow tubes - say 1 1/2" BSP. Aren't the chances of an overflow blockage pretty remote? What would it take to block them?

I guess though, with an drilled overflow weir the closest the water surface can be from the rim is going to be at best 15mm (more likely around 25mm), so on my proposed 1500 x 500 tank that's also around 11-12 litres. Assuming a 600 x 400 sump tank with a central divider, that'll be around 90-100mm of depth.

Visa versa same thing, if the pump stops, there will be X volume run back to the sump. Not to overflow the sump it needs enough free buffer space to collect the volume running back during a power out.

You can install all kinds of electronic gadgets alarm bells and whistles for that. But doing simple volume calculations will prevent it for free.

Yeah, it is a good idea now I understand the thinking behind it on raising the pump.

On the sump overflowing, presumably you can counter that with an emergency overflow or two on the sump, out to an external drain? I intend to add one anyway, as I plan to intentionally overflow the sump during automated water changes, by adding a HMA filter on a timer to flow into the tank (at a rate of around 1 litre per minute), which I assuming will increase the flow into through the overflow into the sump, raise the sump level over the overflow pushing old water out into the drain.

This is all theory for me at the minute, so please feel free to pick holes in the plan?!

That seems a very good reason not to use a floating switch didn't thought of it that way..

A quote from the pumps manual. "There is an automatic shut off if there is no water for 2 minutes. Pull the plug and then re-insert it
to take the controller back into operation."
So as far it looks that it is save for that..

I assume this is an Aquamedic pump you're referring to, but which model specifically?

 

[Luciën]

I assume this is an Aquamedic pump you're referring to, but which model specifically?

This is the one I ordered, Aquamedic DC 3.2

 

[zozo]

Blockage doesn't necessarily mean complete blockage. A dead fish or a plant leaf, dirt build-up in the pipes etc. can restrict the flow through. Make this for example 50% capacity loss and the pump works faster and the drain capacity doesn't keep up. This can finally result in the tank spilling water over the top rim.

In any case, scenarios can occur you haven't thought of before. You might never do if it never happens to you.

Most sumps are DIY builds in theory on experience most of them are not calculated. Even tho if calculated it's a rather static calculation for ideal circumstances. But physics with natural media like water and air and flow where gravity comes to play can be rather treacherous.

A simple trapped air bubble that slowly gathers over time bouncing up and down in a tube can suddenly and significantly restrict flow through causing a capacity decline.

I've made sump setups completely from clear tubing to see what goes on in there and seen it happen. Small air bubbles being sucked into the overflow pipe, created by a dirt particle at the overflow. With the pipe completely filled with water. The bubble goes down halfway and comes back up and bounces up and down in the falling water column. Other smaller bubbles are sucked in and the bouncer bubble is slowly accumulating and getting bigger. It worked OK for months and then suddenly, it makes a difference. Without notice, while growing bigger it restricted the flow through on a daily bases for say 1% each day that was 30% after a month. Then i noticed a water level difference, higher in the tank, lower in the sump.

If i had not made the tubing from clear plastic i never ever would have seen it and likely never would have guessed that something simple like this is can occur and can play up messing with the capacity of the system.

That's the beauty of making and working with sumps imho. Always in for surprises you didn't think about.

 

[Wookii]

Blockage doesn't necessarily mean complete blockage. A dead fish or a plant leaf, dirt build-up in the pipes etc. can restrict the flow through. Make this for example 50% capacity loss and the pump works faster and the drain capacity doesn't keep up. This can finally result in the tank spilling water over the top rim.

In any case, scenarios can occur you haven't thought of before. You might never do if it never happens to you.

Most sumps are DIY builds in theory on experience most of them are not calculated. Even tho if calculated it's a rather static calculation for ideal circumstances. But physics with natural media like water and air and flow where gravity comes to play can be rather treacherous.

A simple trapped air bubble that slowly gathers over time bouncing up and down in a tube can suddenly and significantly restrict flow through causing a capacity decline.

I've made sump setups completely from clear tubing to see what goes on in there and seen it happen. Small air bubbles being sucked into the overflow pipe, created by a dirt particle at the overflow. With the pipe completely filled with water. The bubble goes down halfway and comes back up and bounces up and down in the falling water column. Other smaller bubbles are sucked in and the bouncer bubble is slowly accumulating and getting bigger. It worked OK for months and then suddenly, it makes a difference. Without notice, while growing bigger it restricted the flow through on a daily bases for say 1% each day that was 30% after a month. Then i noticed a water level difference, higher in the tank, lower in the sump.

If i had not made the tubing from clear plastic i never ever would have seen it and likely never would have guessed that something simple like this is can occur and can play up messing with the capacity of the system.

That's the beauty of making and working with sumps imho. Always in for surprises you didn't think about.

That's superb insight Marcel, thanks. Clear tubes is a good idea!

How did you mitigate the bubble issue?

 

[Wookii]

Lets talk sump design also. Below is my 'first pass' at a design, based largely on @Geoffrey Rea 's design. Have you thought about your sump design yet @DeepMetropolis?

My objectives are; 1) Wet/dry for maximum O2 diffusion, 2) design as simple as possible, 3) as easy to maintain as possible.

The drawing is just a basic guide of the design. My CAD skills don't extend to 3D so for example the three inlets would not be physically next to each other length ways, but width ways, which I can't show on a 2D drawing as they'd all be overlapping, so that is just representative (so don't take all positions literally). Some explanation:

• My idea for ease of maintenance is to have a disposable (bio-degradable) pre-filter paper that I can just swap out weekly and throw away. This and a fine pre-filter sponge will be housed in a slide out drawer for easy access.
• The base of the drawer will be drilled with the trickle holes to 'rain; on the bio-balls.
• The bio balls will be in large mesh bags, so they can be easily removed (via the drawer opening) for cleaning.
• The drawer and lid etc will have rubber seals (not shown) where needed to contain as much off-gassed CO2 as possible.
• I planned to have two return pumps to the tank, feeding outlets in the main tank in either corner (circular flow in tank).
• The CO2 reactor, fed by a third pump, will circulate water back to the sump (directed to the inlets on the main return pumps).

I'm quite sure there are things I have wrong in the design, and things I haven't thought of, so feedback and suggestions are actively sought please guys?

 

[zozo]

Thank you..

How did you mitigate the bubble issue?

Change and rebuild it completely. Oversize the tubing and sufficiently aerate it to prevent trapped air that creates a vacuum and prevent slurps and burbs. It took me about 2 years and a few rebuilds to finally build a foolproof and silent setup that works with syphon overflow.

 

[Wookii]

Thank you..


Change and rebuild it completely. Oversize the tubing and sufficiently aerate it to prevent trapped air that creates a vacuum and prevent slurps and burbs. It took me about 2 years and a few rebuilds to finally build a foolproof and silent setup that works with syphon overflow.

Do you have any pictures or drawing of the final foolproof setup? It would be good to see as you've obviously been through this entire process already.

 

[zozo]

I'm quite sure there are things I have wrong in the design

Looks good to me, i can't think of anything wrong in it. Mine looks fairly the same a tad more simplistic and smaller. But same principle, but non CO².

The only thing i added is a bypass at the pump. With the valve i regulate the pump capacity, valve fully closed is full turn over to the tank. Open valve a bit a part goes directly back into the sump.

 

[Wookii]

Looks good to me, i can't think of anything wrong in it. Mine looks fairly the same a tad more simplistic and smaller. But same principle, but non CO².

The only thing i added is a bypass at the pump. With the valve i regulate the pump capacity, valve fully closed is full turn over to the tank. Open valve a bit a part goes directly back into the sump.
View attachment 132115

Thanks. Is that needed if you have a DC pump and controller like the Aquamedic that @DeepMetropolis has bought? or is that mechanical solution better as it eliminates possible controller failure (potentially putting the pump at 100%)?

 

[zozo]

Do you have any pictures or drawing of the final foolproof setup?

Very simple. I hope the drawing says it all.

This is the overflow i'm using. Installed 2 each side 1.


This one is not from clear tube, the first one i build was clear tube to see and learn. This one works without any flaws, don't need to see it work.

 

[zozo]

I've used DC pumps via PWM controller in the beginning but indeed found it unreliable. It's fun to have it all fancy, but the more bells and whistles the more can go wrong and fail.

One day i thought why? I went KISS again.. Thus i made it with a regular AC pump and fine-tune the turnover with a bypass back to the sump. Works perfect.

But can imagine with CO² it will waste.

 

[Wookii]

Very simple. I hope the drawing says it all.
View attachment 132119

Thanks. Given I would have the one drilled weir outlet, and I would plan to position the sump such that the overflow travels vertically to the sump, are there any other considerations I should make. Should the vertical pipe slope, to eliminate the waetr drop, or incorporate some S-bends?

 

[zozo]

I do not have a huge turnover, i'm maybe at 400l/h divided over 2 overflows. Then the water doesn't fall deeper than the tank tall is, 35cm. Then it all gathers into a horizontal pipe that again has an outlet into the sump.

And i can not realistically say how your sump will run from a picture. A lot is trail and error.

But could add obvious things to take into account to expect, that the more turn over you have over a single outlet that is rather tall in height will increase the speed the water will fall. Then if all this volume comes to a sudden stop on dry media or into the water in the sump it will create splashing noise. That's why my outlet in the sump is submerged. Then in the sump, it overflows again into the trickle compartment divided over 3 separate spray bars. To create a trickle over the media.

If the water would fall directly on top in full fall speed it is noisy.

In diagram, i did this to make it silent. That first compartment is also where my heaters are.

 

[Wookii]

I do not have a huge turnover, i'm maybe at 400l/h divided over 2 overflows. Then the water doesn't fall deeper than the tank tall is, 35cm. Then it all gathers into a horizontal pipe that again has an outlet into the sump.

And i can not realistically say how your sump will run from a picture. A lot is trail and error.

But could add obvious things to take into account to expect, that the more turn over you have over a single outlet that is rather tall in height will increase the speed the water will fall. Then if all this volume comes to a sudden stop on dry media or into the water in the sump it will create splashing noise. That's why my outlet in the sump is submerged. Then in the sump, it overflows again into the trickle compartment divided over 3 separate spray bars. To create a trickle over the media.

If the water would fall directly on top in full fall speed it is noisy.

In diagram, i did this to make it silent. That first compartment is also where my heaters are.
View attachment 132121

Hmmm . . I was trying to minimise the number of compartments in the sump, but I guess having an initial compartment would also allow me to trap any stray shrimp - a problem I was trying to think of a solution for. If I then flow over into a drip tray as in your design, I can get access to the pre-filter with a simple lid rather than the drawer idea also. The downside I guess is that I assume I'd have to be constantly cleaning crap out of that first compartment?

In terms of flow rate, I really have no idea, but I was thinking in the region of 2000-2500 litres per hour - the overflow weir/box being the limiting factor, and ensuring it has plenty of spare capacity - in the hope of avoiding the need for any in tank circulation pumps.

 

[Luciën]

Have you thought about your sump design yet @DeepMetropolis?

Yes I have a bit but I'm not sure about a trickle filter, don't think its needed for a planted tank and I'm a wary of the noise. The whole idea of building a sump was to get rit of the Oase filter and have easy maintenance and I really would like to have an compartment for plant holding in the sump and have lots of room for what ever.. Not having to trash all those buces and cuttings or plants that I just don't really have room for..

Thanks. Given I would have the one drilled weir outlet, and I would plan to position the sump such that the overflow travels vertically to the sump, are there any other considerations I should make. Should the vertical pipe slope, to eliminate the waetr drop, or incorporate some S-bends?

This is what I like to know also does it help to let the pipes go around a corner and helps with the noise of falling water? For me it does not matter at all because I can place the sump where ever I like beneath the tank.

That first compartment is also where my heaters are.

Doesn't the trickling makes your water cool faster? I guess that placing them in the last compartment is more energy saving?

@Wookii why place your reactor on a separate pump. I'm planning to include it in the outflow in a bypass and use an ball valve to regulate the flow in the reactor so I'm sure all the dissolved co2 goes directly in the tank.

 

[Wookii]

@Wookii why place your reactor on a separate pump. I'm planning to include it in the outflow in a bypass and use an ball valve to regulate the flow in the reactor so I'm sure all the dissolved co2 goes directly in the tank.

I’m not sure really. My initial though was simplicity - having the CO2 on a separate loop I figured it’d be easier to maintain - I can pull it all out at any point without affecting the rest of the filter system. Plus with me originally thinking of using two pumps to the tank, that seemed an easier way of distributing CO2 rich water to both of them.

As I say though, the design is a first pass - so this kind of discussion is good, as having the CO2 in the main loop with a bypass might be the better solution.

How many outlet are you having in your tank, two? With the on pump feeding them both? Do you plan to have additional in tank circulation?

 

[foxfish]

You guys seem to be having fun designing your sumps.
I am a huge fan of overflows and sumps, I have been using them for 40 or so years right down from 10 gallon fish tanks to 12,000 gallon Koi ponds.
For planted tank application with added C02, I dont like to send too much water over the overflow but stick to 3 or 4 x the tank volume per hour.
I like to re circulate the sump water into a trickle tower and flow the Co2 back via the main pump.
I have never used an overflow box, always drilled the tank and more recently cut a 150mm x 25mm slot out of the back pane.
I favour a powerful three speed pump but they are quite high wattage.
Lots of different configurations and possibilities to suit you needs.

 

[Luciën]

I’m not sure really. My initial though was simplicity - having the CO2 on a separate loop I figured it’d be easier to maintain - I can pull it all out at any point without affecting the rest of the filter system. Plus with me originally thinking of using two pumps to the tank, that seemed an easier way of distributing CO2 rich water to both of them.

Yes of course you where planning on two pumps then having it that way makes more sense. You can also have one strong pump drive two outlets..

How many outlet are you having in your tank, two? With the on pump feeding them both? Do you plan to have additional in tank circulation?

Well I have 2 wavemakers in the tank yet, the more I can get rid off the better.. But I am planning one outflow just yet. Was wondering where to place it. The sump will be on the left side of the tank near the rear as thats the only place I don't have a lot of room on the back. So I think the outflows best position is on the left side to the front of the glas?

ou guys seem to be having fun designing your sumps.
Lots of different configurations and possibilities to suit you needs.

Yes it is really fun to do and what i like about it is that you can always change the most of it if it doesn't work out quite as you expected.