Toxic plants

Discussion in 'Plant Help' started by planter, 23 Dec 2008.

  1. planter

    planter Member

    Messages:
    427
    Location:
    Surrey
    I been told that I should be careful with certain plants in my shrimp tanks.

    Ceratophylum, Cabomba , Anubias and cryptos can all apparantly be toxic to shrimps ??
    I have kept Anubias and crypto in shrimp tanks before with no problem

    Anyone know if there is any truth in the above?

    Thanks
     
  2. Thomas McMillan

    Thomas McMillan Member

    Messages:
    1,127
    Really? I just put an Anubias into a tank that will house shrimp and am planning to put cabomba in there.

    I'd be interested to know if there is any truth in this, definately.
     
  3. GreenNeedle

    GreenNeedle Member

    Messages:
    2,706
    Location:
    Lincoln UK
    Apart from the ferns in my tank all the rest of the plants are Anubias and Crypts of several varieties!!!

    I would guess actual plant mass the Anubias and Crypts are probs 75%!!!

    I started with 14 shrimp and now have an uncountable number!!!

    More than likely yet another LFS myth.

    AC
     
  4. Themuleous

    Themuleous Member

    Messages:
    4,126
    Location:
    Aston, Oxfordshire
    Yeh, if this were true I think more people would know about it, as most people keep shrimps.

    Sam
     
  5. Thomas McMillan

    Thomas McMillan Member

    Messages:
    1,127
    I have heard of this before, but only in Anubias. I immediately thought of your tank, Andy and I'm sure there's a million other tanks out there with these plants and shrimp. Probably is just a myth.
     
  6. Superman

    Superman Member

    Messages:
    1,804
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    I have mainly crypts and one big anubias and cannot keep shrimp, they die in less than a week.
    Even with changing dosing levels of traces and Nitrates they just die. I've tried drip aclimitising them and have tried algae and cherry shrimps.
    I would love to find out why inverts (including snails) do not last in my tank but don't want to try anymore without knowing as I don't like killing things.
     
  7. GreenNeedle

    GreenNeedle Member

    Messages:
    2,706
    Location:
    Lincoln UK
    Clark - You only need a couple of tanks that are succesful with shrimp yet filed with Anubias and Crypts to disprove the theory though.

    I think once we see that there are no problems in a few tank with the shrimp/anubias/crypt combos then we can assume your problems must be with something different. As a positive at least its one thing ruled out. Maybe next to look at water parameters etc.

    AC
     
  8. Superman

    Superman Member

    Messages:
    1,804
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    It must be something else, I've always thought about water parameters or maybe the fact that my substrate could be harbouring large amounts of trace elements (like copper) that they don't like - could build up over time.
    The local water report doesn't provide anything into the fact that I have problems, yes its has an average Nitrate of ~30ppm but nothing stupid considering I dose Nitrate for the plants.
    I will be trying shrimp again in my nano but not too many and with it being a newer setup can rule out the water (as that would be the only common factor).
    It just seems some people can either keep shrimp or not and if it doesn't work.
     
  9. Goodygumdrops

    Goodygumdrops Member

    Messages:
    278
    Location:
    Falkirk,Scotland
    Copper was my first thought,didn't want to say though being a noob and all,especially when you said snails too.I've heard folks saying that they don't take well to Excel also.
     
  10. planter

    planter Member

    Messages:
    427
    Location:
    Surrey
    I found this post on a shrimp forum -

    "I wonder if this notion is because anubias, and crypts to a lesser extent, are related to the philodendron (aroid) family? Philodendrons are toxic, and can be a hazard to pets (dogs, cats, ferrets, etc.) that might chew on them. Also, in reading about having houseplants growing out of an aquarium near a window, as an additional plant-filter, I've read to let the "wound" from any cutting to scab over before introducing a philodendron into aquarium water, for the same reasons.

    I can't think of where else this line of thought would come from."



    I have heard it said that Anubias is only toxic after splitting which seems to tie in with the above?
     
  11. altaaffe

    altaaffe Member

    Messages:
    309
    Location:
    Thornhill, Egremont, Cumbria
    I've just set up a 60 litre tank for the pupose of breeding cherry shrimp. It has contained Cabomba for a long time as a previous fry tank and I left it in there. The shrimp have already bred and I can see new shrimplets running round already with no adverse affect.

    The tank is not dosed with any ferts.
     
  12. Luketendo

    Luketendo Member

    Messages:
    463
    Location:
    West Sussex, England
    I have lots of Anubias and Crypts in my aquarium with Cherry Shrimp. I had like 15 since like months ago and they are not breeding. I think half-ish have died. But wouldn't they all have died?
     
  13. Thomas McMillan

    Thomas McMillan Member

    Messages:
    1,127
    I guess so, unless they are dying gradually or something.

    I don't think this theory is correct to be honest, Anubias and the other plants may be toxic in some way but not in the sense that they have any affect on shrimp.
     
  14. Dave Spencer

    Dave Spencer Member

    Messages:
    1,389
    Location:
    N. Wales
    I have been unable to keep shrimp in my tanks planted with stems for longer than two months. They have looked 100% throughout this period, but then just start to die one by one.

    My latest tank is my first attempt at Anubias and Crypts, yet have an Amano shrimp that will have survived for around three months now. Give him a little more time and I will slowly try and build up my shrimp numbers.

    Dave.
     
  15. LondonDragon

    LondonDragon Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,293
    Location:
    London
    I have read this before too, and I keep anubias in my shrimp tank since day one, has you can see from my journal they are doing great and even bredding pretty well. So for now I will stick with it and see, I have anubias and crypts in the tank since day one, thats going back to June when I set it up.
     
  16. mr. luke

    mr. luke Member

    Messages:
    1,038
    Location:
    Lincoln
    well i have all of the above in my dedicated shrimp tank and the only one that has ever been a problem is anubias when i cut it to replant it, a few deaths occured at around the same time.
     
  17. GreenNeedle

    GreenNeedle Member

    Messages:
    2,706
    Location:
    Lincoln UK
    well I cut off a near 1cm thick rhizome on Friday night and have seen no problems!!!

    I would try not just to associate 1 happening (the cutting) with the deaths. think what else happened or occurred through that 1 process. For one at the very least you disturbed the substrate directly below the hardscape when cutting or removed the hardscape and therefore substrate that had lain untouched for a long time could suddenly release anything that was underneath!!!

    As Tom Barr would say ;) 'There could be any number of things occurring at the same time so try not to link 2 theories to make an assumption before ruling everything else out.

    AC
     
  18. plantbrain

    plantbrain Expert

    Messages:
    1,949
    How many ways can we kill shrimp not related to anything todo with plants and rule those out as the causes here?

    1001 at least...............

    Rather than doing that, I have Cherry's and CRS's, they breed and are berried.
    I dose EI in these tanks, they have been set up for 1 years or more now, ADA AS, semi soft water, KH is about 30ppm, or about 1.5. GH is about 3-4.

    Temps vary, but are warmer than many.

    Now with high trace dosings, higher temps, a wide range of plant species, high CO2 during the light cycle, good feeding, good routine maintenance/water changes, I can rule out a lot here. Now this puts me once again into direct conflict with avoid shrimp myth promoting folks :D But that's hardly an issue for me, been there done this many times with many myths.

    Old hat and I have seen this same sort of mob myth making occur numerous times over the decades.
    Plants, fish, algae, shrimps.........Nice thing for me is that they are easy to breed and I end up with plenty to play around with for testing. Since we assume them to more sensitive than fish, they make good test subjects. I have good renewable source so .........

    One thing I've haggled about recently is the genetic quality of the shrimp themselves.
    How inbred are thy?
    Very very inbred and often times those sources you get them from have bred their sisters and brothers several genetations. Sick rat bastages:)
    How could you?

    Fish folks can inbred to select for certain traits, these where as well, but............then when other folks get them, they are not as selective as a knowledge person/breeder trying to selectively bred them. They just keep breeding them over and over without any outcrossing to keep them healthy.

    So some will die, some will do okay then die later. They are weaker and this explains why my shrimps are tougher than other folks, I have 5 different sources of the genetic stock. So the brood will be tougher also. Many are too cheap to buy from several sources, they buy all from one group and then that's it. They have no idea the quality of the stock they bought.

    Sellers are not going to charge an arm and leg for CRS's then tell you, "oh yea, BTW, they are even more sensitive because I inbred them too much", they will only say something like " yes, I used several groups to ensure some outcrossing to help them have resisntence to environmental changes."

    I've ruled out things like Temp, NO3, K+, Fe, Trace dosing, ADA AS , you pick any plant species etc(this has never been shown in an aquarium for fish or inverts to date).

    I'm left with some folks that claimed high grades they had where more sensitive, so I asked where the genetic stock came from, they had been inbreeding with no outcrosses at all, culling only the ones with reds and selecting only for whites, then breeding those again.

    I'm not breeding for high grades really, but without knowing the past breeding history, I cannot in honesty say either way. I can buy some of the high grades and test those or if I breed some that turn out to be high grades etc...........and place them in my tanks and if no losses occur, then it might very well be all baloney.

    Still, it brings up the breeding quality issue.
    Fish folks are good about this, shrimp folks much less so from what I've seen.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  19. misscaretaker

    misscaretaker Member

    Messages:
    204
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    I know this isn't the point of the topic, but aren't Ceratophyllum spider plants and therefore not aquatic plants or is there a type that is aquatic?
     
  20. planter

    planter Member

    Messages:
    427
    Location:
    Surrey
    ceratophylum = Hornwort


    good to hear of every ones experiences, thanks!

    Ive never had any trouble keeping shrimps, and have also kept them with Anubias and Crypts and have never suffered any major losses.

    Just nice to be able to check with the UKAPS members. :)
     

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