Water changes when cycling without plants?

[Ady34]

Hi,
should I be carrying out water changes on my newly filled tank which is using an ammonia leaching soil substrate but as yet has no plants or livestock?
Presuming there's no reason to as yet until it's planted and then carry on with every day/other day 50% water changes. Will the excessive ammonia help/hinder cycling of the filter? .....I'm guessing the more the merrier to get things going but I'm unsure really!
Cheers
Ady

 

[Stitch]

Re: Water changes when cycling?

I have a 125g tank and was advised to keep the ammonia at 3ppm during the fishless cycle.

I used 3 bags of ADA Amazonia in my 125g tank and found that it leached over 5ppm. I therefore did 30% water changes every 3 to 4 days to try and keep ammonia around 3ppm. Water changes would bring back to between 2 and 3ppm but then each day it would slowly creep up again.

I'm not 100% sure but i've read a lot on the internet about high ammonia levels stalling the cycle process so it can't do any harm changing water to bring it down.

Full cycle took about 30 days.

What size tank do you have? If it's small then you only need to keep the ammonia at between 1 to 2ppm. 3 to 4 ppm is for large tanks.

 

[Stitch]

Re: Water changes when cycling?

Oh, and I was advised that it is sometimes best to only put the plants in after the ammonia has stopped leaching as this can sometimes cause the plants to melt beyond repair.

So if possible, cycle the tank, empty 90% of the water, install the plants, then refill the tank.

 

[Ady34]

Re: Water changes when cycling?

Hi thanks for the info.
Yeah once the plants are in I'm going to be doing 50% daily/every other day water changes to keep ammonia at bay and keep things fresh.
I'll probably do every 3rd day just incase until its planted.... like you say can do no harm, although I was going to use a water changeless period to see how the water chemistry was effected by the large pieces of seiryu stone I'm using.
Last time around I cycled then emptied and planted as you suggested but this time I'm gonna plant during cycling so I'm not staring at a devoid of life aquarium
Cheers
Ady

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Re: Water changes when cycling?

Planting also means you can hammer it with co2 for the first few weeks ady

 

[Stitch]

Re: Water changes when cycling?

Planting early shouldn't be an issue but definitely add CO2 and keep the ammonia at the appropriate level.

Like I said, too much ammonia will cause your cycle to be longer and possibly do harm to the plants. If you keep an eye on it then you should be fine.

I didn't have CO2 and let the ammonia initially rise very high. This killed a lot of my plants. Egeria densa completely dissolved

 

[Ady34]

Re: Water changes when cycling?

Cheers guys, I've been testing co2 today, think as suggested I'll hammer it while there's no fish to get the plants going.... always worry about lowering the c02 back down again for livestock introduction though incase of an adverse reaction from the plants, but suppose that time comes eventually.
Cheerio
Ady

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Re: Water changes when cycling?

Can see why you would be concerned a little, my plan for next time is to do the same but then raise the lights right up and have just a 4 hour period when pulling the co2 back. Can you run just one tube in your hood Ady?

Didnt know that too much ammonia could harm plants??

 

[Ady34]

Re: Water changes when cycling?

Well on thinking about it I'm not sure too much ammonia can harm plants. I was involved in a thread where clive was posting about ammonia and I seem to remember it being a good thing, I can't remember where it is though as I tried to read it again for reference. I also think ammonia is a plants first choice of nitrogen fert so they should lap it up given good light and co2. The water changes on set up after planting are prob more to keep organic waste at a minimum.
I was also considering raising my light unit this time round but unsure about this now too as most of my plants are short and low in the water column anyway where par will be lower. May as you suggest raise them a touch when reducing the co2 down for fish introduction. I think I can remove a bulb but I'd rather just raise the light unit. Planning on a 5 hour photoperiod to start, maybe keep it to a maximum of 6 or 7 long term due to the lower plant mass in an attempt to keep algae at bay.
Cheerio
Ady

 

[ceg4048]

Re: Water changes when cycling?

Ady,
You need to change as much water as possible, as often as possible and forget about everything else. This is imperative. The cleaner your water the better it is for the plants. Aren't you dosing KNO3? If so then why do you care whether NH4 is a first choice or not? The junk that the plants kick out into the water column does more damage than any sort of goodness that the ammonia will do. Ammonia kills bacteria by the way. There is very little advantage in simulating a toxic waste dump site. Help your plants by cleaning your tank.

Cheers,

 

[Ady34]

Re: Water changes when cycling?

Ady,
You need to change as much water as possible, as often as possible and forget about everything else. This is imperative. The cleaner your water the better it is for the plants. Aren't you dosing KNO3? If so then why do you care whether NH4 is a first choice or not? The junk that the plants kick out into the water column does more damage than any sort of goodness that the ammonia will do. Ammonia kills bacteria by the way. There is very little advantage in simulating a toxic waste dump site. Help your plants by cleaning your tank.

Cheers,

Sorry, should have prob been clearer in the topic title so ive edited that! Not planted yet Clive, just filled and running until the plants arrive, question was really based on whether I should still be doing the water changes even before the plants go in.... from your reply and those of Stitch, I think I probably should be if high levels of ammonia can kill filter bacteria as Im aiming to grow these too
Will be dosing ferts when plants arrive and doing large and frequent water changes
Cheerio
Ady