What deficiency is this ?

[aquagenetics]

Hey Everyone,

since 3 weeks im using EI dosing now, and still seeing some kind of deficiency, i am wondering if this could be magnesium ? (i am using Tapwater) no chlorine, because i live in the Netherlands.
im using the attached schema for the EI recipe, i am not using rest days i dose alternatively between MICRO and MACRO'S. The plants are pearling so i dont know what is the problem.
so what i noticed was that in this site i ordered from, they dont use Magnesium. so that might be the culprit ?
i change 50 % water every week.

Thanks in advance!

 

[MrClockOff]

Hi there,

assuming the CO2 drop checker means you're using CO2 injection and looking at the type of algae you've got I think the main reason of your problem is CO2 rather that fertz. Since you're using EI for 3 weeks it should cover any deficiencies well except in some circumstances Fe when PH is 7 or above and EDTA chelated Fe was used. The new growth is looking pale which suggest micro nutrients are limited or depleted and pale usually means lack of available Fe.

I'd suggest to look at CO2 issue first and check if you have correct Fe chelator.

Cheers

 

[aquagenetics]

Hi there,

assuming the CO2 drop checker means you're using CO2 injection and looking at the type of algae you've got I think the main reason of your problem is CO2 rather that fertz. Since you're using EI for 3 weeks it should cover any deficiencies well except in some circumstances Fe when PH is 7 or above and EDTA chelated Fe was used. The new growth is looking pale which suggest micro nutrients are limited or depleted and pale usually means lack of available Fe.

I'd suggest to look at CO2 issue first and check if you have correct Fe chelator.

Cheers

Hey thanks for the fast reply, as you can see in the 2nd picture i am injecting co2 yes, and its lime green so what could be the problem here ?
how can i have deficiency's in FE if i dose EI ? thats the weird thing about it which i dont understand.

what could be the case is that im having 20mg/l co2 drop check fluid, i am gonna order 30mg/l co2 drop check fluid because on this one i cant see if its for 30 or 20 mg/l

 

[Konsa]

Hi there
Will you please provide more details.
Tank size,filtration, lighting and photoperiod, how long before lights on the CO2 comes on and when you get the lime green drop checker(for example when the lights come on,one or two ,3 hours after lights come on),temperature of the tank.
If Mg is not found in your water supply then that may be your limiting nutrient.You can easily rectify that by adding Epsom salt to your Macro solution .
It is possible to be flow and distribution issue.Have you moved the drop checker arround and near substrate level to see if you get the same reading.

Regards Konstantin

 

[MrClockOff]

Hey thanks for the fast reply, as you can see in the 2nd picture i am injecting co2 yes, and its lime green so what could be the problem here ?
how can i have deficiency's in FE if i dose EI ? thats the weird thing about it which i dont understand.

what could be the case is that im having 20mg/l co2 drop check fluid, i am gonna order 30mg/l co2 drop check fluid because on this one i cant see if its for 30 or 20 mg/l

CO2 injection is never easy. There is few rules which have to be followed:

• recommended CO2 concentration in the water is 30ppm (or 1 PH unit drop). It can be less but then make sure the light intensity is appropriate (not too bright) or it can be more but then watch out for live stock. Some fish is very sensitive.
• chose your CO2 concentration and make sure it's achieved by the time your lights are on and then stable until lights off. If concentration is not achieved by the time the light are on or it drops during lights on then plants will starve and die slowly. Plants like stable CO2 supply otherwise they struggle
• ensure that your filter is producing enough flow so water can be moved through the full length of the aquarium so all plants can get the CO2 delivered
• ensure that your aquarium do not have stalled spots where water is not moving due to hardscape obstruction or to dense plant growth. This will block CO2 delivery to the plants in such areas which will cause problems again. In such cases CO2 drop checker will show lime green color (desired color) where the flow is OK but if you move it to stalled place it will turn to blue.

Also it's a good idea to have a digital PH meter with better precision. I had once a case where my drop checker was lime green but actual PH drop was just 0.5 drop. I was struggling with growing my plants for months until I bought PH pen and did PH profile which revealed the issue. Fixing CO2 concentration fixed the growth problem

Re Fe deficiency as I said it depends on what water PH do you have in the fish tank. Fe EDTA is getting useless when PH is 7 or above - plants can't use it. Check you PH before changing Fe chelator

 

[aquagenetics]

Hi there
Will you please provide more details.
Tank size,filtration, lighting and photoperiod, how long before lights on the CO2 comes on and when you get the lime green drop checker(for example when the lights come on,one or two ,3 hours after lights come on),temperature of the tank.
If Mg is not found in your water supply then that may be your limiting nutrient.You can easily rectify that by adding Epsom salt to your Macro solution .
It is possible to be flow and distribution issue.Have you moved the drop checker arround and near substrate level to see if you get the same reading.

Regards Konstantin

Tank size : juwel rio 240 (240 liter)
Filtration : JBL Cristalprofi 1500
co2 on before lights approx 3 hours (still changing the injection rate, because i had to add a new bottle.)
Light : 2x Juwel Helialux spectrum 1200
about the Mg i dont know, on dutch website they say our tap water is middle level in hardness, i bought it from a known website in the netherlands, and in their recipe there is no MG, i thought u need to add this when you use RO water.
about the flow and distribution, i used to have the drop checker lower, but a fish swimmed in the checker, and got stuck and died unfortunately. (so i placed it higher again. to minimize the risk of that.)

Do you guys reckon the skimmer is placed in good way ? i am not sure about this.
i have made a youtube video, to show you guys better.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

they dont use Magnesium. so that might be the culprit ?

It looks like iron (Fe) deficiency, assuming that the new leaves really are that pale?

Deficiency symptoms are really difficult to diagnose in most cases, but it is only really <"lack of iron"> that causes chlorotic new leaves. This is because iron isn't mobile within the plant and can't be shuffled to new leaves.

This is @Zeus.'s <"future of aquascaping image">, showing the effect of turning iron off and on.



cheers Darrel

 

[aquagenetics]

Hi all,

It looks like iron (Fe) deficiency, assuming that the new leaves really are that pale?

Deficiency symptoms are really difficult to diagnose in most cases, but it is only really <"lack of iron"> that causes chlorotic new leaves. This is because iron isn't mobile within the plant and can't be shuffled to new leaves.

This is @Zeus.'s <"future of aquascaping image">, showing the effect of turning iron off and on.



cheers Darrel

How can it be iron deficiency when i dose EI though ? which leaves do you see that are pale btw i think thats just bright light, anyways i ordered 30mg/l dropchecker fluid now to see if i really inject co2 for 30mg/l
also you can see the schema i posted in the PDF, so you can see what i dose, if its to less please let me know. because im already calculating on that website for 260 liter, coz i thought it was not rich enough because i saw deficiency's
thanks for the reply!

 

[sparkyweasel]

Tenso Cocktail uses EDTA and DPTA chelated iron, these are good in acid water, but if the pH is high much of the iron is not available to plants, almost all of it is unavailable at pH7 or higher.

 

[aquagenetics]

Tenso Cocktail uses EDTA and DPTA chelated iron, these are good in acid water, but if the pH is high much of the iron is not available to plants, almost all of it is unavailable at pH7 or higher.

my PH is low, i'am using Tropica soil plus im injecting CO2, waiting now for co2 drop check fluid to come with 30mg/l since they dont have that in the store here. so i had to order it.
to see if im injecting enough.

 

[Konsa]

Hi
I am looking at your video and I see that while there is good circulation higher in the tank and towards the back there is barely noticeable movement of plants in lower areas and in the middle. I like the position of the skimmer but I would move the intake pipe on the same side as the outflow if you have a chance. Also have you considered using the spray bar on the back wall.Imo this will give you better flow around the tank of your size.
I am using the same filter and similar position of the pipes and while it has a good punch my tank is only 1/2 the size of yours
In regards of Mg and Fe.
Your water hardness depending on your location and geology may come from Ca only or Ca+Mg.If you are using RO you need to add Mg for sure.
Epsom salt is dirt cheap ( £2)and will not do any harm if you add it to your Macro solution.
As for Fe I was in the same boat like you when I was CO2 user.I bought a small amount of Fe EDDHA (cost £6)and started adding it to my Micro solution just to be in the safe side and it worked.
With EI you are dosing in excess anyway so 1 or 2 tweaks to your mix will not be an issue and you can put your mind at rest in regards of nutrient availability.
You did not mention your length of photoperiod and your temperature?
Regards Konstantin

 

[aquagenetics]

Hi
I am looking at your video and I see that while there is good circulation higher in the tank and towards the back there is barely noticeable movement of plants in lower areas and in the middle. I like the position of the skimmer but I would move the intake pipe on the same side as the outflow if you have a chance. Also have you considered using the spray bar on the back wall.Imo this will give you better flow around the tank of your size.
I am using the same filter and similar position of the pipes and while it has a good punch my tank is only 1/2 the size of yours
In regards of Mg and Fe.
Your water hardness depending on your location and geology may come from Ca only or Ca+Mg.If you are using RO you need to add Mg for sure.
Epsom salt is dirt cheap ( £2)and will not do any harm if you add it to your Macro solution.
As for Fe I was in the same boat like you when I was CO2 user.I bought a small amount of Fe EDDHA (cost £6)and started adding it to my Micro solution just to be in the safe side and it worked.
With EI you are dosing in excess anyway so 1 or 2 tweaks to your mix will not be an issue and you can put your mind at rest in regards of nutrient availability.
You did not mention your length of photoperiod and your temperature?
Regards Konstantin

Temperature 23 c
photoperiod 10 hours with sun up and sun down so bright 8 hours
i do want a spraybar across the whole side, however im not that handy and didnt see one that big, also not sure if that would work
because i had a spray first instead(The default one that came with the filter) instead of the outlet i have now, and i noticed the CO2 had struggles to come through with the spraybar because im using an JBL proflora inline diffusor.
Im not using RO im using regular tapwater from sink, it should have CA + MG coz its middle hardness or something i read in the report.
Thanks for your reaction! i am glad you solved your problem. i am still puzzling for mine 🙂

im using EI in the schema attached you can see what im dosing weekly. it should be 0.40 ppm FE
if you want more information let me know.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

which leaves do you see that are pale

The new leaves? Particularly on the Myriophyllum on the left of the photo?

It is really difficult to judge light intensity from a photo, but your light intensity look very high, so it maybe that Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) is <"driving demand beyond the supply of, at least one, nutrient">. Plant growth is like a car assembly line, <"one missing nutrient and no car">.

Personally I like a floating plant, because they have:

• Access to <">415 ppm CO2"> and
• are used to <"very bright light"> in their <"natural habitats">.
• You can use them like a <"net curtain"> to intercept some of the PAR, if you can't dim or raise the light.

........... Floating mats are a common feature of the aquatic communities of the Pantanal ............ restarts with free floating macrophytes (Salvinia auriculata Aubl., Pistia stratiotes L., Limnobium laevigatum (H. B. K.) Heine) and Eichhornia azurea. Within a few years, succession again reaches the stage of a floating meadow of sedges...........

Your water hardness depending on your location and geology may come from Ca only or Ca+Mg.If you are using RO you need to add Mg for sure.
Epsom salt is dirt cheap ( £2)and will not do any harm if you add it to your Macro solution.
As for Fe I was in the same boat like you when I was CO2 user.I bought a small amount of Fe EDDHA (cost £6)and started adding it to my Micro solution just to be in the safe side and it worked.

about the Mg i dont know, on dutch website they say our tap water is middle level in hardness, i bought it from a known website in the netherlands, and in their recipe there is no MG, i thought u need to add this when you use RO water.

You won't have much magnesium (Mg) in your tap water for <"geological reasons">. It is different around the Mediterranean sea, or in <"North America">. As @Konsa says there isn't really a downside to adding magnesium and because it is mobile in the plant they should show some improvement really quickly, if magnesium was <"Liebig's limiting nutrient">.

but if the pH is high much of the iron is not available to plants, almost all of it is unavailable at pH7 or higher.

That is the iron (Fe) issue, it doesn't matter how much you add if it isn't plant available.

cheers Darrel

 

[aquagenetics]

Update : i dropped the dropchecker lower again, lets hope a fish dont swim in it 😱 already happened before.
i made a video to show you guys the bubble count of the CO2


i also tested the PH (yes i know it sucks with test kit) but i dont have PH pen the one's i googled costed like 110 euro.
today we will also change the intake to the same side of the outlet, im wondering if the plants residing lower will move more.

so i think my ph is low enough for the FE to absorb right ?

Best regards,

 

[MrClockOff]

Update : i dropped the dropchecker lower again, lets hope a fish dont swim in it 😱 already happened before.
i made a video to show you guys the bubble count of the CO2


i also tested the PH (yes i know it sucks with test kit) but i dont have PH pen the one's i googled costed like 110 euro.
today we will also change the intake to the same side of the outlet, im wondering if the plants residing lower will move more.

so i think my ph is low enough for the FE to absorb right ?

Best regards,

Have you tested PH before CO2 on? When you dose micros? Before CO2 on or when it’s on? PH is changing in CO2 injected tanks: drops when CO2 on and rises when off

By the way what is water PH used to mix frets? Fe could be already useless to plants out of the bottle

 

[aquagenetics]

Have you tested PH before CO2 on? When you dose micros? Before CO2 on or when it’s on? PH is changing in CO2 injected tanks: drops when CO2 on and rises when off

By the way what is water PH used to mix frets? Fe could be already useless to plants out of the bottle

i dose micros when lights are on immediatly. so ph is already dropped then, i use tap water to mix Ferts, people said its fine on here.

 

[MrClockOff]

i dose micros when lights are on immediatly. so ph is already dropped then, i use tap water to mix Ferts, people said its fine on here.

Very possible your tap is above 7 PH. Aquarium and tap water PH can be different. Also during the night when CO2 is off remaining Fe will be rendered useless if PH will rise to 7 or above

 

[aquagenetics]

Very possible your tap is above 7 PH. Aquarium and tap water PH can be different. Also during the night when CO2 is off remaining Fe will be rendered useless if PH will rise to 7 or above

i am pretty sure my tap is above 7 yes, so thats the problem ?

 

[aquagenetics]

placed the drop checker back near the ground, seems nice lime green but not sure if its 30 mg/l because i dont have my new dropchecker fluid yet.

 

[John q]

i am pretty sure my tap is above 7 yes, so thats the problem ?

I'm no expert on this but pretty sure your micro mix will include some kind of acidifier to keep it stable. My tap water is 7.2ph out of the tap and I have no issues using this to mix ferts, small caveat, my tap water is soft.
I'd imagine if the iron is falling out of chelation in the mix you'd see precipitation/bits in the bottom of the bottle.

Light : 2x Juwel Helialux spectrum 1200

Looking at your last picture I'd suggest there's more than just an iron deficiency going on here, the plants and hardscape are covered in various types of algae, which to me is being caused by the light intensity demanding far more C02 than is being provided.

Is there any way you can dim these lights? If indeed these are running at full power 120w?