What do my plants need?

[billiemackers]

Hi all,

My plants haven't looked great for a while - recently (2 weeks+) I have been fert dosing using a rough 50% EI regime, to try and cover all nutritional needs.

One of the things I don't add is any calcium, as I would have thought my tap water would have enough of this in (out of the tap Ca is 17.4ppm)

I dose EL EasyCarbo daily. 6W LED light is on for 7 hours per day.

Anyway, what do you think my plants need? Here are some pics

Crypt wedtii 'green' - Deformed growth, black spots and holes. New growth not as deformed as it used to be.

H. pinnatifida: Growing well albeit very green. The plant to the right of these 2 isn't as healthy, leaves are turning dark and dying lower down.

S. repens: Growing better than it has been, still a bit pale

Little Java fern - Seems fine, one of the leaves has black spots though
Rotala rotundifolia, grows well enough - still a bit pale. Not signs of pink/red at all

Everything else - dwarf hairgrass and java moss seem to grow OK, moss especially

Any help much appreciated, cheers!


For pics of the plants from a few weeks back, check here: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/plants-not-happy-please-help.43359/

 

[Mick.Dk]

- judging from newest growth ; time and patience.......
If you want the full colouration of your Hyg. pinn. and Rot. rotund.; a bit more light (which must then be supported by a bit more nutrients!)

 

[billiemackers]

- judging from newest growth ; time and patience.......
If you want the full colouration of your Hyg. pinn. and Rot. rotund.; a bit more light (which must then be supported by a bit more nutrients!)

Cheers Mick, the new growth does look better but still a bit deformed - was just wondering if there is an obvious deficiency. Time & patience is fine with me Thanks

 

[Martin in Holland]

I would investigate the flow at substrate level.

 

[HannahFergusonFan]

Cheers Mick, the new growth does look better but still a bit deformed - was just wondering if there is an obvious deficiency. Time & patience is fine with me Thanks

yes there is it seems may be the nutrients level in your water is bit low try to add some ferts after the water change or weekly, main ferts you need are NPK, nitrogen. Phosphate and Potassium. As I see in the picture some of your plants and stem plants which get the nutrients from water not form roots.

 

[billiemackers]

I would investigate the flow at substrate level.

Thanks, I think the flow is quite strong though. All of the plants sway in the current.

yes there is it seems may be the nutrients level in your water is bit low try to add some ferts after the water change or weekly, main ferts you need are NPK, nitrogen. Phosphate and Potassium. As I see in the picture some of your plants and stem plants which get the nutrients from water not form roots.

Thanks, I alternate dosing NPK and micros every day. I'll work out how much I add exactly

Here are some pictures from today. I got a new light, which makes it easier to see how pale everything is - especially the rotala. I have just noticed too that my dwarf hairgrass is dying off it was looking OK.

The rotala is growing, but it is almost white!

What should I do?

Any help much appreciated!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The rotala is growing, but it is almost white!

It looks like you might need a different chelator for iron. The chlorosis is caused by a non-mobile element within the plant, and there aren't many of these.

Have a look at <"Tom's ADA.."> .

cheers Darrel

 

[billiemackers]

Thanks Derrel, I use EL Profito for micros. From the EL website: "The nutrients in ProFito are stabilized in a number of different ways by various chelators."

Which chelator would you suggest I try?

My tap water is very soft, is it possible that Ca could be deficient?

 

[sciencefiction]

What is the size of the tank...I may have missed it....
How much of profito iron do you dose? There are several micro nutrients that can induce similar deficiency symptoms as iron...What else do you dose? It is certainly a micro deficiency.....most folks(including me) tend to dose on the low side out of unreasonable fear.

 

[HannahFergusonFan]

Don't remove Dwarf hair grass if they are brown, its just normal. They will regrow.

 

[billiemackers]

What is the size of the tank...I may have missed it....
How much of profito iron do you dose? There are several micro nutrients that can induce similar deficiency symptoms as iron...What else do you dose? It is certainly a micro deficiency.....most folks(including me) tend to dose on the low side out of unreasonable fear.

Hi, the tank is 30 litres. I dose 1ml of Profito every other day. This works out at 0.08ppm per dose, so approximately 0.2ppm - 0.3ppm of iron per week (not much?) Interestingly, I added 2.5ml of profito last night - this morning the rotala is visibly greener! Could this just be coincidence? I thought as Iron is relatively immobile in the plant, I wouldn't notice any difference until new growth appeared.

Don't remove Dwarf hair grass if they are brown, its just normal. They will regrow.

Ok cheers, plenty of it still alive - just a lot has recently gone brown. I read that adding some root tabs or fertiliser can help, not sure if I want to go down that route though

 

[sciencefiction]

I thought as Iron is relatively immobile in the plant, I wouldn't notice any difference until new growth appeared.

One can definitely notice improvement immediately because iron deficient plants sort of "perk up" when given iron..Just as if you've poured water into a drying out terrestrial plant....I am not sure what the exact chemical reaction is but iron deficiency even makes the stalks to be sort of bent and lifeless and a good dose sorts this out straight away even if it doesn't necessarily help recover the full extent of the damage...New growth should be normal though...I'd cut all bleached out growth now and dose a good bit of iron for the next week or so...You'll know for sure if its iron or not given the right doses...

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

added 2.5ml of profito last night - this morning the rotala is visibly greener! Could this just be coincidence? I thought as Iron is relatively immobile in the plant, I wouldn't notice any difference until new growth appeared.

You are right, you wouldn't get any direct effect from the iron on the older leaves, but I think "Easylife Ferro"? also contains magnesium (Mg) and potassium (K), and they are both mobile within the plant and would cause a quick greening of the new leaves if one, or both, were deficient.

You can add magnesium easily via "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.6H2O) from a chemist etc.

The non-mobile elements are boron (B), calcium (Ca), copper (Cu), iron (Fe), manganese (Mn) and zinc (Zn). Plants need very small amounts of B, Cu and Zn, and only slightly more Mn. They have a greater requirement for Ca and Fe, but they still only need small amounts.

Usually problems with micro-element deficiencies occur because of problems with the ratios of elements, rather than an absolute deficiency. In very soft water Fe and Mn are more available to the plant, but Ca is less available.

I'd would be surprised if it was a Ca deficiency. You can add a small amount of CaCl.2H2O (you can buy it as "food grade" or for reef tanks via Ebay etc) if you want to make sure you have enough Ca. If you don't mind having a less precise addition "Oyster (or Cockle) shell chick grit" works well and is very cheap to buy.

Diagnosing nutrient deficiencies is difficult, and those of non-mobile elements (that manifest in new leaves) is really difficult, because you only see an improvement when new growth grows.

Rotala rotundifolia seems particularly prone to <"chlorotic new growth"> and Fe would still be my suggestion as the most likely cause and I'd try adding additional Fe first.

Which chelator would you suggest I try?

I might start with FeEDTA, it is cheap to buy and because your water is soft it should work OK. More expensive options would be FeDTPA or FeEDDHA.

cheers Darrel

 

[billiemackers]

One can definitely notice improvement immediately because iron deficient plants sort of "perk up" when given iron..Just as if you've poured water into a drying out terrestrial plant....I am not sure what the exact chemical reaction is but iron deficiency even makes the stalks to be sort of bent and lifeless and a good dose sorts this out straight away even if it doesn't necessarily help recover the full extent of the damage...New growth should be normal though...I'd cut all bleached out growth now and dose a good bit of iron for the next week or so...You'll know for sure if its iron or not given the right doses...

Thanks a lot, I'll give this a try

You can add magnesium easily via "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.6H2O) from a chemist etc.

Thanks again Darrel, I already add MgSO4 at my 50% weekly water change. I started doing this primarily to increase dGH by 2. I figured that using only MgSO4 would kill 2 birds with one stone: up GH and Mg (which my tap water has relatively little of) at the same time. I didn't see the need to add anything else just to increase GH. The other ingredients that are used in GH boosters etc I didn't see the need for, as my tap water should have these covered - such as Ca. Hopefully I'm right about this!..

I might start with FeEDTA, it is cheap to buy and because your water is soft it should work OK. More expensive options would be FeDTPA or FeEDDHA. View attachment 96010
cheers Darrel

I know I can get hold of EDTAFeNa easily at work, would this be useful? I'll have a look for some FeEDTA too, I'm sure there will be some knocking around somewhere.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I know I can get hold of EDTAFeNa easily at work, would this be useful?

That is perfect.

With EDTA you can replace nearly all the other cations with an iron (Fe+++) ion, because iron is one of the most strongly bound ions and sodium (Na+) one of the least strongly bound ions.

FeNa EDTA is 13% iron (Fe).

cheers Darrel

 

[billiemackers]

Hi all,That is perfect.

With EDTA you can replace nearly all the other cations with an iron (Fe+++) ion, because iron is one of the most strongly bound ions and sodium (Na+) one of the least strongly bound ions.

FeNa EDTA is 13% iron (Fe).

cheers Darrel

Great, I'll make up a solution tomorrow and give it a try. I was thinking i'll trim some of the rotala stems and add 0.2ppm of iron per day for a week or two and observe to see if anything changes. Does this sound reasonable or would you recommend adding a bit more? If I don't see any difference, I want to confidently be able to rule out Fe deficiency.

 

[sciencefiction]

I think you should be fine with 0.2ppm per day and you should see result in a week max, as soon as plants grow new tops. Any new growth should be completely normal.

 

[billiemackers]

Great, cheers!

May post some results in a few weeks or so then - fingers crossed