What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance

[sciencefiction]

Why would you not take steps to prevent BBA from getting into your aquarium by cleaning plants of it or purchasing from a place that you know doesn't have BBA?

I understand your point scapefu.
But many of us already have BBA in our tanks. If your statement is true, then we need to boil the tanks to 60C or similar to get rid of the current "spores"
Now another thing is as fablau already stated that BBA stops growing and disappears on plants transferred to non-BBA tanks. This must mean something in terms of conditions triggering BBA.
I agree and it is also my opinion that CO2 fluctuations don't trigger BBA. So what does....once you have the spores? Having the spores doesn't equal BBA because I certainly have "spores" in all my tanks from transferring plants but don't have BBA in all my tanks. In fact right now I've got BBA in none of them. They all have had BBA or have had plants "infected" with BBA transferred to them at some point in time.

 

[Scapefu]

SF, thanks for reply.

How did you arrive at boiling your aquarium from my words?? I didn't say that.

My point is simply 1) minimize chances of BBA getting into your aquarium and 2) maintaining your water parameters and golden equilibrium will result in any algae going away.

It is true that algae will grow in one aquarium and not another. The reason is that one has conditions that favor growth and the other doesn't. Why do you discount the possibility that one aquarium is properly dialed in and the other is imbalanced?

In my experience, cyano died when I moved plants from one of my aquariums to another. One tank was a long standing, mature aquarium that was dialed in. The other was relatively new and I had not found the right balance for it yet.

 

[sciencefiction]

How did you arrive at boiling your aquarium from my words?? I didn't say that.

I was simply responding to your previous statement below. Sorry for the confusion.

BBA is typically introduced invasively through acquired plants or even the guts of fish.

I've had tanks for quite a few years now, so I was only kidding about the boiling part but it's too late for me to prevent possible "spores". Plus who can check fish's guts if it were through they can introduce it that way in one's aquariums.

The reason is that one has conditions that favor growth and the other doesn't.

I think that's the question. Why does it prosper in some tanks and not at all in others. I've transferred BBA infected plants numerous times to non-BBA tanks and the BBA ends up dying and disappearing from that same plant. I've done that with anubias a few times. I've also transferred completely healthy plants into a BBA tank and they got "infected" with BBA almost within days.

 

[AndyMcD]

Plus who can check fish's guts if it were through they can introduce it that way in one's aquariums.

If you search long enough on the Internet you can find most things.

I didn't keep the link but I did find studies performed by scientists who were studying how algae could move upstream.

Analysis of fish gut contents to try to find algae spores in full gory detail.

Riveting read.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

One tank was a long standing, mature aquarium that was dialed in. The other was relatively new and I had not found the right balance for it yet.

I think that is an answer, it doesn't tell us why, but if you have some plant growth and you just wait most algae goes away of its own accord. I say "goes away" but it is still there, just not as obvious visible "out-breaks".

I've looked at a lot of "clean" plant leaves and stems under the microscope, and there has always been algal filaments and diatoms present.

I think that's the question. Why does it prosper in some tanks and not at all in others. I've transferred BBA infected plants numerous times to non-BBA tanks and the BBA ends up dying and disappearing from that same plant. I've done that with anubias a few times. I've also transferred completely healthy plants into a BBA tank and they got "infected" with BBA almost within days.

Which is back to where we started. The problem would be all the parameters we would like to measure vitamin B12, BOD etc are really out of reach

I've noticed that I've got some small circular colonies of a red algae growing in one of containers I store the rain-water in over-night before a water change. The water in these will always have been fairly clean and low BOD (based on a conductivity of ~100 microS), and there must have been times when they've been exposed to atmospheric gases for several days at a time.

I'll try and get a photo when I'm in University tomorrow.

cheers Darrel

 

[AndyMcD]

My simple point is that inconsistent CO2 is not THE reason for BBA. Unfortunately, there are many people that say that this is THE cause of BBA.

Are you saying that available B12 in the aquarium with ammonium leads specifically to BBA? Alternatively, minimizing B12 in your aquarium would result in BBA being eliminated? I don't think this will prove correct. I believe there is not a single culprit that leads to BBA.

Algae photosynthesises using CO2 as its carbon source. Like plants, it would make sense that algae growth should increase with CO2 concentration.

However, many very experienced aquarists report that BBA outbreaks are caused by inconsistent CO2.

Similarly, there are many reports that BBA outbreaks occur in aquariums with a higher concentration of organic carbon. Algae is unable to utilise organic carbon as its main source for growth.

As algae is unable to directly take advantage of these changes in the environment, how could BBA indirectly be benefiting from them?

What changes occur in the aquarium if CO2 reduces and organic carbon increases? What organisms that exist in our aquariums would benefit from these changes in the environment?

There is less CO2 for plants to convert to O2.

In our aquariums, autotrophic (nitrifying) bacteria and heterotrophic bacteria compete for oxygen and surface area. As it requires less energy (and oxygen) for heterotrophic bacteria to convert organic rather than inorganic carbon to building blocks for growth, they are able to multiply and take advantage of environmental changes. Some species are even able to function in very low concentrations of O2.

Therefore, with a higher level of organic carbon, the heterotrophic bacteria have a source of food to be able to multiply.

Plants suffering due to a deficiency may add to the available organic carbon levels.

A reducing level of O2 and a rising C/N ratio worsens the conditions for the autotrophic bacteria, meaning they are less able to compete for surface area.

As the population of heterotrophic bacteria increases the availability of oxygen will reduce, meaning the autotrophic bacteria may cease to function, converting less ammonia to nitrates. Also, heterotrophic bacteria break down proteins to amino acids and then ammonia. Both of these effects lead to an increase in the ammonia (ammonium) concentration in the aquarium.

Overstocking fish leads to an increase in ammonia and organic carbon waste.

Is there a link between the heterotrophic bacteria succeeding and algae benefiting?

Some heterotrophic bacteria produce vitamin B12. A paper quoted earlier in this thread describes the use of Pseudomonas Denitrificans to industrially produce B12. Also, it describes how reducing the concentration of O2 helps to maximise the yield of B12. As a heterotrophic bacteria population peaks, it may lead to a reducing concentration of available O2.

Vitamin B12 autotrophy in some species of algae is well known. Papers quoted earlier in this thread show how externally sourced vitamin B12 is required by some algae to produce the amino acids and proteins it requires to reproduce. To create protein, organisms need a source of nitrogen, in the form of nitrates, nitrites or ammonia (ammonium).

Algae has a higher proportion of protein than plants. BruceF made reference to a paper which described algae as having a preference for ammonia (ammonium) as its nitrogen source.

Therefore, it is a combination of ammonia (ammonium) and vitamin B12 in sufficient concentrations that is required to stimulate a BBA outbreak.

By carrying out standard maintenance techniques, you will be acting to minimise this effect:
- Water changes reduce concentration of ammonia and B12
- Regular maintenance keeps organic carbon levels low
- Sufficient CO2 and high plant mass helps ensure high levels of oxygen
- Sufficient nutrients helps ensure there is low levels of organic carbon for heterotrophic bacteria to feed on
- Filter cleaning helps maximise surface area for autotrophic bacteria

In my opinion, this model captures many of the reported causes of BBA outbreaks and helps to explain why known controls may be effective.

 

[AndyMcD]

I've noticed that I've got some small circular colonies of a red algae growing in one of containers I store the rain-water in over-night before a water change. The water in these will always have been fairly clean and low BOD (based on a conductivity of ~100 microS), and there must have been times when they've been exposed to atmospheric gases for several days at a time.

Darrel,

you may find this paper interesting.

In this paper they tried to isolate one type of algae and bacteria.

It talks about how heterotrophic bacteria can benefit from the organic carbon algae produces through photosynthesis, in return the algae benefits from the production of B12.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile...regulation/links/0fcfd509536dcb94d6000000.pdf

 

[AndyMcD]

Vitamin B12 autotrophy in some species of algae is well known.

Sorry, this should be "Vitamin B12 auxotrophy in some species of algae is well known".

On the other hand, "Vitamin B12 autotrophy" has never been heard of!

Bl**dy spell checker!

 

[BruceF]

So does that suggest that the treatment might be antibiotics?

 

[AndyMcD]

Antibiotics would probably kill both heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria. Not good.


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[BruceF]

Yes. But would the bba die?

 

[AndyMcD]

Yes, but fish may also die due to increased ammonia (uncycled tank).

If you could selectively kill off the heterotrophic bacteria, it could help reduce BBA. However, I think antibiotics may be too blunt an instrument.

Keeping organics low may be more effective at starving heterotrophic bacteria (water change, gravel clean, remove dead leaves, clean filter, activated carbon for less than two months).


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[sciencefiction]

Antibiotics are an extremely "blunt instrument" as Andy put it. They will shift your tank's balance into the unknown and most likely ruin any "balance" there ever was or is going to happen for a good while.....Try it on yourself first...

If we are talking heterotrophic bacteria vs most organisms. Heterotrophic bactaria wins. We humans are heterotrophs.

 

[AndyMcD]

In this thread we have tried to identify a process that occurs when light intensity increases and CO2 concentration reduces.

The process of Photorespiration does just this and leads to the release of CO2 and ammonia. Although the majority of the CO2 and NH3 may be re-assimilated internally within the plant, while the plant is photorespiring strongly, the plant may have less demand for nitrates / ammonium from outside the plant, meaning under these conditions the plant may compete less with the algae for ammonia.


The process of photosynthesis is explained by the Calvin cycle. During one step in the Calvin cycle, the preferred route is for the enzyme RuBisCO to add CO2 to the molecule RuBP (carboxylation). However, about 25% of these reactions take the non-preferred route of adding O2 to the molecule RuBP (oxygenation), but this rate can vary with environmental conditions.

Photorespiration effects the efficiency of photosynthesis of C3 plants (approximately 95% of plants are C3 by biomass).

The addition of O2 to RuBP is wasteful to the plant in terms of energy, carbon and nitrogen. Therefore, excess photorespiration acts to weaken the plant.

The reaction leads to CO2 and ammonia being released, however these are likely to be re-assimilated by the plant, although it requires additional energy to do this.

Photorespiration occurs at higher rates under the following conditions:
- low levels of CO2
- high levels of O2
- high light intensity
- higher temperature (leading to a greater lowering of CO2 concentration in comparison to O2)

Certain species of algae and plants use carbon concentrating mechanisms to increase the concentration of CO2 near to the RuBisCO. For example, in some species of algae, the pyrenoid increased the concentration of CO2 in the chloroplasts, to reduce the effects of photorespiration.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photorespiration

http://rubisco.ugr.es/fisiofar/pagwebinmalcb/contenidos/Tema08/fotorresp.pdf

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrenoid

 

[BruceF]

That's great stuff Andy. Thanks for all this.

I just want to throw this in here. I have this pet theory about c4 plants which involves me in trying to understand why certain plants seem to do fine in aquariums without CO2 supplementation. I don't really have the education to comprehend all this.


In water with low free [CO2] a common strategy of submersed plants is to use HCO 3 − , but some species utilize a C4 photosynthetic system that surprisingly lacks the Kranz dual-cell compartmentation of most terrestrial C4 plants. Instead, the C4 and C3 cycles are in the same cell, with phosphoenolpyruvate carboxylase (PEPC) and ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase–oxygenase (rubisco) sequestered in the cytosol and chloroplasts, respectively. Malate decarboxylation by NADP malic enzyme (NADP-ME) in the chloroplasts produces a chloroplastic CO2 concentrating mechanism (CCM). It occurs in the submersed monocots Hydrilla verticillata and Egeria densa(Hydrocharitaceae), and in these species it is facultative because low [CO2] induces a metabolic shift in the leaves from C3 to single-cell C4 photosynthesis. Submersed leaves of other species also perform single-cell C4 photosynthesis, including Sagittaria subulata (Alismataceae), the grassesOrcuttia californica and O. viscida (Poaceae), and the sedge Eleocharis acicularis. A marine macroalga (Udotea flabellum, Chlorophyta) and a diatom (Thalassiosira weissflogii) likewise show evidence of its occurrence, so it is not restricted to higher plants. The change from C3 to C4photosynthetic gas exchange and pulse-chase characteristics is well documented in Hydrilla, along with enzyme kinetics and localization; high internal [CO2], and improved growth. Multiple isoforms of PEPC, NADP-ME and pyruvate orthophosphate dikinase (PPDK) exist in Hydrilla and Egeria, but specific forms, including hvpepc4, hvme1 and hvppdk1are up-regulated in the C4 leaves of Hydrillaand encode proteins with C4 photosynthetic characteristics. Interestingly, the photosynthetichvpepc4 differs from its terrestrial C4 counterparts in lacking a “C4-signature” serine near the carboxy terminus. The C3 leaf must maximize CO2 conductance to rubisco, but as the C4 system is induced, chloroplast conductance is probably minimized to reduce leakage from the CCM. Further study of the facultative system of Hydrilla could determine if down-regulation of chloroplast-envelope aquaporins is involved in reducing CO2 conductance. Hydrilla and Egeria are in the ancient Hydrocharitaceae family, and can give insights into early C4 photosynthesis, which likely originated in water prior to its advent on land.

http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-90-481-9407-0_5

 

[AndyMcD]

I just want to throw this in here. I have this pet theory about c4 plants which involves me in trying to understand why certain plants seem to do fine in aquariums without CO2 supplementation. I don't really have the education to comprehend all this.

BruceF, I don't have the education to comprehend all this either! However, I keep feeling if you look at the science in just a little bit more depth, a lot of the observations that people report here may be explained by science that people have investigated already.

From what I've read C4, CAM and pyrenoids in algae are all carbon concentrating mechanisms, that help to store and concentrate CO2 (via intermediate compounds) around the chloroplasts / rubisco, to help them photosynthesise even when CO2 levels are lower.

I think I read somewhere that Vallisneria is able to concentrate CO2, using an alternative mechanism.

Just a thought - brainstormed idea - I wonder if carbon concentrating mechanisms in certain plants may be the cause of incompatibility with liquid carbon ( glutaraldehyde)

As you say, not all plants are C3 plants and would suffer from this photorespiration process to the same extent. However, I think this process may explain why under bright lights with insufficient CO2 some plants may suffer.

Ammonia and CO2 being released from this reaction seemed to tie in with the hypothesis that ammonia with B12 leads to an increase in BBA growth. However, it would appear that the majority of NH3 maybe re-assimilated. Still with an excess of NH3 to be re-assimilated, it may be that the plants absorb less ammonia from the water and compete less with the algae.

 

[RisingSun]

Interesting read.

Therefore, it is a combination of ammonia (ammonium) and vitamin B12 in sufficient concentrations that is required to stimulate a BBA outbreak.

Isn't this easy to test? Just get a vitamin B12 pill from the drug store and ammonia and put it in a tank, see if BBA appears?

 

[AndyMcD]

I've just started an upgrade to a bigger tank, but once I've done this I'll have all the bits I need to set up a test tank. I've plenty of samples of BBA to seed the test tank with

I've bought a 30cm cube and heater from a local fish shop, second hand on sale. I'll need to add surface movement using a small power head I already have, to provide O2 (bacteria) and CO2 (algae). I'll also need a light source (algae) - the days are getting quite short where I am now.

I could then test either:
- Add vitamin B12 and ammonia to the tank only (both manufactured synthetically). This would narrowly test the effect of just these two 'nutrients'.
- Add B12, ammonia, molasses, melting crypt, excess fish food, to feed the bacteria and the algae. This would help the heterotrophic bacteria to grow, in case they are providing another vital nutrient required, e.g. Phosphate.

 

[AndyMcD]

I may need to add CO2, to ensure algae not carbon limited. Less O2 may be a better test of this suggestion.

 

[RisingSun]

Awesome, interested in hearing the results of your test!

Also, many sources say that a large, healthy, biomass is sufficient to prevent BBA. If I'm not mistaken, your theory explains this phenomenon by saying

healthy plants -> high O2 -> healthy autotrophic bacteria colony = no BBA.

But if this is really the causal chain, then why doesn't this work (someone mentioned Tom tried this):

high O2 -> healthy autotrophic bacteria colony = no BBA

I'm sure one can inject more O2 into one's tank using a CO2 cannister than plants could produce.