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When to add fish!
- Thread starter rikstar
- Start date
PARAGUAY
Member
Plants are the best way to cycle IMO, but they need to be growing healthy . I usually wait approx6 weeks before adding livestock
Bradders
Member
- What are you current parameters for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrates?
- How are you cycling your aquarium? (i.e. have you been adding food?)
- Is your filter operational and been running for the last 3 weeks?
- Have you gone through any stages of bacterial bloom, cloud water etc?
I dont know my parameters yet, im added food once, plants are grown fast actually, plus i used my sons aquarium filter to quick start mine. No cloudy water yet, although i do have a 5ft sump filter on my aquarium that does a superb job, I do have a few spots of brown algae at the bottom,
Bradders
Member
5 Foot Sump!! How big is the aquarium?!
Once per day? Or once in the three weeks?
Yeah, would be great to get a sense check of where the parameters are. But as @PARAGUAY says, you are probably looking for around 5-6 weeks (taking into account you have used established media to seed your new aquarium
The whole system is empty is around 1800liters5 Foot Sump!! How big is the aquarium?!
Once per day? Or once in the three weeks?
Yeah, would be great to get a sense check of where the parameters are. But as @PARAGUAY says, you are probably looking for around 5-6 weeks (taking into account you have used established media to seed your new aquarium
I put food in once! Should i be doing this daily? I need to go get a test kits to test the parameters could i use saltwater test kit i have?
Bradders
Member
That is one massive aquarium! Awesome - and I am very jealous!
There are many ways to cycle an aquarium. If you add food daily (pretending there is some fish in there) it helps the tank cycle as the fish food rots and creates ammonia. The water will get darn right murky at some point, but eventually it will clear giving you an indication your aquarium is ready for habitation. (To be more accurate, a slow addition of fish over many weeks with checks on chemistry and for water clarity changes).
As said, that is just one way and something I used to cycle my tank - including using a test kit to check that ammonia and nitrite decline over time, and nitrates start to appear. (Although in your case, you have plants so they could end up removing all the nitrates!).
Don’t know about whether saltwater tests work with freshwater. Mixed answers on the internet so better leave that question to someone more experienced with testing kits. However, it would be great to see where the chemistry is after 3 weeks.
Hi all,
When I have time I'll write a proper "cycling guide". I have the references, but I need to measure some water parameters using the kit in the analytical lab.
The whole <"ammonia based microbial cycling"> concept was an idea is <"based on science"> that has been <"totally superseded">, unless you keep <"Mbuna">.
We have a couple of threads where we've actually talked to scientists involved in this work.
cheers Darrel
No, you don't need to, and it doesn't. The level of ammonia (NH3) (Total Ammoniacal Nitrogen) isn't actually that relevant to cycling. Just ignore everything you read on other forums, social media, or are told by LFS etc, <"it is all wrong">.
When I have time I'll write a proper "cycling guide". I have the references, but I need to measure some water parameters using the kit in the analytical lab.
The whole <"ammonia based microbial cycling"> concept was an idea is <"based on science"> that has been <"totally superseded">, unless you keep <"Mbuna">.
We have a couple of threads where we've actually talked to scientists involved in this work.
- <"Bacteria revealed">.
- <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">
- <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">.
You <"don't need a test kit"> and the salt water one you have won't work for nitrate (NO3-), potassium (K) etc. The difference is that salt water is a very salty medium with a known (and huge) quantity of sodium (Na+) and chlorine (Cl-), which can be taken into account. If you don't have interference from those ions the test kit readings won't be accurate, you've built in constants (for Cl- and Na+) for variables that don't exist.
I'm not anti-testing, <"I actually look after a lab.">, but there are a <"number of issues"> with the test kits available to us. Plants are very efficient at <"removing all forms of fixed nitrogen"> (and other nutrients) and that is why <"plant based "cycling"> works.
cheers Darrel
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tam
Member
- Joined
- 5 May 2011
- Messages
- 1,470
It depends.
If you've used an active substrate that initially leaches ammonia then you need to wait for that to stop which you'll need to test your ammonia/nitrate to determine.
If not, then you can add a source of ammonia (fish food or actual ammonia) and when you stop registering ammonia/nitrite and consistantly register nitrate then it's 'cycled' and you can stock. Usually around a 6 week process.
If you have lots of actively growing plants and you are happy to stock gradually and do regular water changes then you can start stocking when the plants are growing well - probably again about a month plus - watch the plants. If doing this then you start with small numbers of fish and aim to never have ammonia register as the plants take it up, you do water changes and you stock gradually as the filter/plants mature to compensate. This option doesn't work if you want to add a lot or large fish.
If you've used an active substrate that initially leaches ammonia then you need to wait for that to stop which you'll need to test your ammonia/nitrate to determine.
If not, then you can add a source of ammonia (fish food or actual ammonia) and when you stop registering ammonia/nitrite and consistantly register nitrate then it's 'cycled' and you can stock. Usually around a 6 week process.
If you have lots of actively growing plants and you are happy to stock gradually and do regular water changes then you can start stocking when the plants are growing well - probably again about a month plus - watch the plants. If doing this then you start with small numbers of fish and aim to never have ammonia register as the plants take it up, you do water changes and you stock gradually as the filter/plants mature to compensate. This option doesn't work if you want to add a lot or large fish.
So no need for a test kit? Can i add a few fish now?
Hi all,
Have a look at <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">. There <"isn't any ambiguity">, I'm interested in the <"science of probability"> and my opinion is that "grown-in" is the method with <"the lowest risk of failure">.
Have a look at the "Seasoned Tank Time video in "<"Help needed with 0 Nitrates Levels">.
cheers Darrel
You may be able to, but you really need to wait for the tank to grows in. The advantage of a tank with a <"lot of healthy plant growth"> is that it is fish safe, you don't need to know anything else, you can <"just use your eyes">.
Have a look at <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">. There <"isn't any ambiguity">, I'm interested in the <"science of probability"> and my opinion is that "grown-in" is the method with <"the lowest risk of failure">.
Have a look at the "Seasoned Tank Time video in "<"Help needed with 0 Nitrates Levels">.
cheers Darrel
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Hi all,
cheers Darrel
Can we have a picture?
I should have added a proviso to that, and asked a couple of questions.
- Did you use filter media from another tank? and
- What is the substrate?
I should probably post this somewhere as well <"Water Quality: A Holistic Approach | DrTim's Aquatics">.
cheers Darrel
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Bradders
Member
I would be greatly interested and love to read this once you have some time. I do think you should include the alternative (without plants) just for balance/comparison.
Hi all,
The design is to use a horticultural fertiliser (containing ammonia) (possibly <"2:1:2">) for the different treatments, that would mean that the only variable would be the plant. I'd also add some dKH.
For the first run through I would just use water, fertiliser and Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium (Hydrocharis) laevigatum). Using a shallow dish would allow gas exchange and I'd could measure TAN in situ daily with an Ion Selective Electrode.
Further experiments could add <"a substrate">, a rooted plant, <"some leaf mold"> etc.
The problem with adding more factors is that replication rapidly grows out of hand. You would want at least 6 replicates for statistical purposes, and if you want to look at interactions (multifactorial experiments) that number grows very rapidly.
cheers Darrel
That is mainly why I need to get some empirical values. A bit like @_Maq_ 's experiments <"Maq's experiment 23b">, you would need a control treatment.
The design is to use a horticultural fertiliser (containing ammonia) (possibly <"2:1:2">) for the different treatments, that would mean that the only variable would be the plant. I'd also add some dKH.
For the first run through I would just use water, fertiliser and Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium (Hydrocharis) laevigatum). Using a shallow dish would allow gas exchange and I'd could measure TAN in situ daily with an Ion Selective Electrode.
Further experiments could add <"a substrate">, a rooted plant, <"some leaf mold"> etc.
The problem with adding more factors is that replication rapidly grows out of hand. You would want at least 6 replicates for statistical purposes, and if you want to look at interactions (multifactorial experiments) that number grows very rapidly.
cheers Darrel
Bradders
Member
Now, you are just being flashy.
I'm just a boy from Essex! I think the experiments should be from an aquarium skill level and stocking perspective. i.e. (And this is ONLY a poor but illustrative starting point!), we have a) a no-plant experiment - possibly a control, b) a plant experiment and c) a fish food experiment for achieving a cycled tank. I am sure you have better ways to express this, but hopefully, you get my drift!
However, extending from that, I think some questions should be answered—for example, the difference between a cycled aquarium/filter and one that can deal with pathogens. Or maybe, is a cycled filter a healthy one?
MichaelJ
Member
Plant densely, wait for some good growth, fertilize from day one. The more plants you have in from the get go the faster you can introduce fish. If you're using highly enriched substrate you might want to wait for that to settle and stop leaching. It's not cut in stone, but the 6 weeks that @PARAGUAY mentioned above is a good number. You can further accelerate the process by introducing some filter material or gravel from an established tank, but usually the plants will take care of business.
Cheers,
Michael
Cheers,
Michael
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Bradders
Member
Just so I understand (and in no way to be inflammatory!), what do you mean specifically by "plants will take care of business"? i.e. what are you describing exactly when you say "business'?
MichaelJ
Member
That is, help establish and mature the tank... spark and accelerate growth of a healthy beneficial microbial community... which eventually is essentially what we qualify as a mature (or "cycled") tank.
Cheers,
Michael
Hi all,
There is lots of research on phytoremediation, from both aquaculture and wastewater, where you need to get most bang for your buck.
You can mitigate for loss of water quality in non planted tanks by massive volume water changes and shower filters etc., but you would still have even better water quality if you combined plants with efficient filtration and water changes.
Cheers Darrel
It just means that <"plant / microbe' biofiltration"> is much more effective than "microbe only" biofiltration. There isn't any "plant only" biofiltration, even if you only have floating plants.
There is lots of research on phytoremediation, from both aquaculture and wastewater, where you need to get most bang for your buck.
Basically a planted aquarium, with actively growing plants, will produce better water quality than an unplanted one. This is partially because of the increased volume of tank available for microbial colonisation and partially because of the <"massive net oxygen production of plants">, not only the oxygen from photosynthesis, but also the ammonia and nitrite that they take up, which then doesn't enter microbial nitrification.
You can mitigate for loss of water quality in non planted tanks by massive volume water changes and shower filters etc., but you would still have even better water quality if you combined plants with efficient filtration and water changes.
Cheers Darrel
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