Who needs a dog.

[zozo]

The Animal Welfare Act (uk) defines the following needs every owner is responsible for providing for:

(a)its need for a suitable environment,

90% of the most popular pedigree dog breeds already fail having this invironment in their very own body..

Why is this still going on?.. Because societies elites have the biggest say in defending the breed in respect of identifying their status..

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I have to admit I wish I hadn't posted this. There's a lot of debate on whether or not (quite heated at times) and I didn't realise what the fish was until afterwards. I just assumed it was some kind of large Cichlid that I've never heard of because those type of fish don't interest me. However now I've had the chance to dig into some fact on it personally, I stand on the side of the fish shouldn't exist...but it does so whatever.

In defence of the owner, I follow his work on youtube which is where I came across the video. The guy looks after his fish and has some excellent low tech very natural tanks so I'm guessing he is a nature type person. Unsure of why this fish attracts him but each to their own. Maybe he wanted a pet with some character and this was as close as he was getting. The fish to me looks happy and healthy, for all we know the guy could be retired and spends all day playing with the fish like you would any other pet for its stimulation? From what I gather this thing might just be in a growing tank for now and not its final destination. They are also very aggressive fish which can't be kept with others and tend to wreck the tank including smashing heaters and pulling filters apart. That being said would I have one the answer is no.

In that vein though we also need to bring into question things like should a highly intelligent group animal be even kept at all? I had a rabbit for 10 years, he was my best friend, I kept his hutch nice and clean and was free to roam around the garden at will. Did I look after him? I feel I did but his instinct was to be out with other rabbits as part of a group. Same could be said about Parrots, Gerbils and Hamsters what about budgies, that sort of thing? Do we in breed bad traits into animal for our own aesthetic, yes we do and have done for centuries since we started domesticating animals. How many people have these new versions of dogs that seem to be in vogue at the moment? Paying thousands for the look of the dog then finding out that these dogs suffer from various ailments because of their size and shape. I personally know two people with British and French bull dogs that have had to take them to the vet because their faces were that flat due to line breeding they had breathing difficulties. Rotweilers that carry so much weight that their back ends tend to give up before the full lifespan of the dog.

I had a Jack Russel Patterdale cross, some people will probably call it a a "Patterrussel" or something these days and sell them for £850 going off the trend. Mine was a union of someone else's dog jumping over a fence when next doors dog had broke down. I got it for free, lived 16 years and never ailed a day in its life. I think they used to call them mongrels. Most of my friends never get more than 5/6 years out of a KC registered animal.

It's certainly a contentious issue that's for sure.

 

[Zeus.]

A certain Arowana springs to mind also!

The Animal Welfare Act (uk) defines the following needs every owner is responsible for providing for:

(a)its need for a suitable environment,
(b)its need for a suitable diet,
(c)its need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns,
(d)any need it has to be housed with, or apart from, other animals, and
(e)its need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.

The most common one that is ignored is need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns. We provide a clean tank with the correct parameters, a healthy diet, co-habitors (or not depending on the species) and medical care. They are all essential basics.

The next level - providing the facilities to exhibit normal behaviour patterns is more difficult and something I would say the majority of fish keepers (me included) fail with at some point. After all, if you've done all the above the fish is healthy and not apparently in poor conditions it seems like job done. To provide for normal behaviour patterns you have to know what they are for that individual species and work out how to accommodate them. Different fish's behaviour patterns can conflict (even if their water parameters don't) and it can conflict with how you want the tank to look, space and costs.

Do you make sure to grow enough algae in your tank to provide natural grazing options for fish whose natural behaviour is to spend half their day browsing on algae? Do you provide substrate suitable for digging in to fish that like to burrow? Does your lighting allow for normal wake/sleep cycles. Do you provide dense top growth for fish that naturally nest in it? Do you provide leaf litter for hiding in if appropriate? Is the flow in your tank really enough for fish that would naturally spend their day clinging on to rocks in high currents? Do you provide enough space for fish to live in a large shoal and to move in a way that's natural?

I don't think the issue is fish owner specific. It's an issue that's building awareness in all animal keeping area - from scientific research animals, to zoos to dog owners - pop 'your animal type + enrichment' in google if you want to know more. I think everyone should ask themselves: are you really providing an environment that supports natural behaviour patterns for that animal? People in houses full of glass fish tanks shouldn't throw stones.

Dont think it applies to fish, we only have to look how commercial fisherman catch fish in nets and just let them suffocate to death! before going to market.

But we all have our own moral compasses to guide us. Was in Germany as seen some Arapaima in a big tank but still thought it wasnt fair on the fish IMO, Yet I have fished and caught them to 210KG at Gilhams which I thought wasnt cruel. Yet it is really.

The fish owner isnt going out of their way to be cruel, but in such a sterile environment with little interaction I wouldn't be happy myself.

 

[BubblingUnder]

90% of the most popular pedigree dog breeds already fail

90% is stretching it too far but I agree there is a problem with breed standards that put aesthetics above the health of the dog especially pugs, bulldogs etc. A little 'mongrel mutt' genetics required in the mix I think.

 

[tam]

In that vein though we also need to bring into question things like should a highly intelligent group animal be even kept at all? I had a rabbit for 10 years, he was my best friend, I kept his hutch nice and clean and was free to roam around the garden at will. Did I look after him? I feel I did but his instinct was to be out with other rabbits as part of a group.

This is my mastermind subject .. I even have a book: https://amzn.to/2I2niiY Yes, you did look after him to the best of your knowledge at the time. But scientific research is continually moving our knowledge on wards. We know from observation of wild rabbits and scientific research you are exactly right, rabbits do prefer company of their own kind. The research involved, for example, using weighted doors to determine the effort rabbits would go to obtain different resources like food and interaction with another rabbit. The current recommended practice is to keep rabbits in pairs or small social groups. But, we should certainly consider whether we can meet all the needs of an animal before keeping it.

I'm not sure you should try to analyse this sort of thing too hard you should try to provide the best you can reasonably with the current knowledge available. [...] The problem with humans over analysing this is they can't know what an animal prefers if the brain of a fish is the size of a pea. As a trade off would I prefer a long safe life where I am fed & there is no famine or a short life in the wild with hunger & fear of predators ?

That's exactly what we should do, use scientific methods to continually analyse and work on improving our knowledge and understanding of the animals we keep and use that to make improvements to their welfare. Your preference would be for a 6x4 cell where you are always feed and protected from conflict? That's the stage a lot of animal care is at. What we are realising is that caring for physical needs is just one aspect of welfare. That challenges, interaction and even the opportunity for play are also essential to welfare.

We can and do provide the opportunity for dogs to engage in natural behaviours related to hunting. For example, by laying scent trails, hiding objects to find, raw feeding, etc. when you start to look beyond just throwing a tennis ball there is a whole range of opportunity you can provide to encourage them to use natural instincts and abilities.

It might seem like understanding tiny fish brains would be impossible, but it's not. Scientists are working on that:

How strong are familiarity preferences in shoaling fish: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347200916658
What about taste preferences: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1467-2979.2003.00121.x

But we can work preferences out ourselves too, from researching the choices wild fish make and observing our own. Do you fish show preference for certain foods? Will fish pick a particularly type of cave for spawning over another? If you get a big tank, and plant half of it - you'll quickly see if a species show a preference for dense cover, open water or the margins between. They key is often providing choices so you can observe your fish make them and then develop an understanding of their preferences.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

A little 'mongrel mutt' genetics required in the mix I think.

The problem with this being the offspring are worthless as an end product, same goes for race horses, greyhounds, trail dogs and these fish apparently. Less than 5% of them are worth selling and most females are useless and probably infertile. The KC club already know in breeding causes health issues and do have guidelines but carry on regardless.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Yes, you did look after him to the best of your knowledge at the time. But scientific research is continually moving our knowledge on wards. We know from observation of wild rabbits and scientific research you are exactly right, rabbits do prefer company of their own kind.

The reason I ended up with the Rabbit was because my brother in law bought two with an interval and they fought all the time. I looked into getting another but what it would have required was a bit of a PITA, two separate hutches and gradually introducing them to each other over a period of time time which often still doesn't work. I then ran the risk of ending up with a 2nd rabbit which I needed to re-home and to be fair the ones I saw at P@H who recommended buying at least a pair looked like they were already part of a group or even possibly siblings so didn't want to split them. Thought best to give the best life I could to the one I had.

There's been quite a good documentary on BBC2 where they've set up an underground facility to understand what's going on in the warrens and introduced a load of tame rabbits. Like the guy said on there "in every pet rabbit there's a wild rabbit waiting to come out" it didn't take long for them to revert, a matter of days actually.

 

[tam]

The reason I ended up with the Rabbit was because my brother in law bought two with an interval and they fought all the time. I looked into getting another but what it would have required was a bit of a PITA, two separate hutches and gradually introducing them to each other over a period of time time which often still doesn't work. I then ran the risk of ending up with a 2nd rabbit which I needed to re-home and to be fair the ones I saw at P@H who recommended buying at least a pair looked like they were already part of a group or even possibly siblings so didn't want to split them. Thought best to give the best life I could to the one I had.

There's been quite a good documentary on BBC2 where they've set up an underground facility to understand what's going on in the warrens and introduced a load of tame rabbits. Like the guy said on there "in every pet rabbit there's a wild rabbit waiting to come out" it didn't take long for them to revert, a matter of days actually.

Yes, although rabbits are social, they naturally live in small family groups and fiercely defend territory against rival groups. The fights are impressive, particularly for an animal with a cute cuddly reputation. I would guess males? They often start to fight when they reach maturity. To introduce adult rabbits you usually go for opposite sex pairs (neutered) and then have to let them get to know each other on neutral territory, which as you say is time consuming and tricky.

The documentary you mentioned was very interesting. Pet rabbits are still genetically the same as European wild rabbits, not a separate species like domesticated dogs. Their instincts and behaviour are all there it's very much nurture that makes a lot of the difference. Once you start looking at how wild rabbits live and behave, the things pet ones do make a lot more sense. They are trying to express the same behaviours, but within the confines of the limited resources we give them.

 

[zozo]

I have to admit I wish I hadn't posted this.

Why? DOn't feel guilty... The issue should be discussed over again and can't be discussed enough.. I'tll never change if it is swept under the carpet to avoid the confrontation.. And yes indeed it's apainfull one and it aint always fair, the good has to suffer with the bad. Inevitable for any regulation or law.

Maybe that Ramshorn in the video isn't permanent in that tank, maybe it is just used to display its behaivor towards its owner and no damage done.. But than posting that still ignites a flame and it should.. In a way we should be thankfull to the maker of the video and thankfull to you to again put the issue under attention. Because that is what this issue franticaly needs.

90% is stretching it too far

It's not my estimate.. Afaik it is officialy investigated and the percentage of the "most popular breeds" not all dog breeds. I could be wrong with a few percent but it isn't far off. And lets be honnest even if it were 1% it still would be 1% to much.

 

[Tim Harrison]

I have to admit I wish I hadn't posted this.

Like Marcel says, I think it's a good thing, it's sparked a very lively debate
That's the great thing about UKAPS, most members respect others opinions, so we can have these debates without it all getting too heated and folk falling out

 

[zozo]

Dont think it applies to fish

Depends on the country.. In Germany for example it is.. I remember a interview with aquscaper Jurijs Mit S.. He was asked to list the best fish sp. for a nano tank.
He didn't want to answer the question nor go into the subject officialy in public because of this...

If you want to go angling in Germany you need to do an exam first and pass ofcourse before you get the permit.. Than you may go and try to catch a fish.. In my country you can get the permit at any age at the post office and do what ever you like..

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

The documentary you mentioned was very interesting. Pet rabbits are still genetically the same as European wild rabbits, not a separate species like domesticated dogs. Their instincts and behaviour are all there it's very much nurture that makes a lot of the difference. Once you start looking at how wild rabbits live and behave, the things pet ones do make a lot more sense. They are trying to express the same behaviours, but within the confines of the limited resources we give them.

Yeah, they discovered that rabbits breed so fast because the mother has very little to do with them other than feed milk now and again which enables the mother to spend more time grazing than bringing up young. People used to laugh at me when I said my rabbit had a toilet Seems that's how it works though, I had a plastic container that I used to leave a little bit of sawdust that was soaked in urine in until the rabbit associated it with its toilet and went back to it every time. The programme showed that in a warren they will dig a hole somewhere in the warren and use this purely for toilet matters...who's laughing now.

Why? DOn't feel guilty... The issue should be discussed over again and can't be discussed enough..

The history of it is I follow the guy and when some people expressed interest in his non co2 tanks I invited him here to the forum to discuss them. Told him there was friendly open discussion here and we'd like to talk about his techniques. The way the post was heading last night I thought I'd inadvertently walked him into a hostile landing zone. I didn't realise how contentious these fish are so felt a bit bad about it.

That's the great thing about UKAPS, most members respect others opinions, so we can have these debates without it all getting too heated and folk falling out

You guys haven't let me down and I can stand by what I said, I apologise for doubting you all. I've just seen so many of these things turn nasty before especially in Facebook groups etc but you're right, not discussing it is a far worse option. Nothing ever gets sorted that way.

 

[BubblingUnder]

The problem with this being the offspring are worthless as an end product

I agree which is why the governing bodies need to change the 'breed standard' for different dog breeds. That way they would maintain value but eventually return to a healthier dog breed. It's a long term problem requiring a long term fix (unless cloning takes off but that's a different debate).

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Here's my rabbit, unfortunately he died two weeks ago at the grand old age of 10ish, not sure of exact age as I don't know how old he was when I got him but I had him ten years. Died in the best way possible lying in the sun in the garden over the bank holiday week. Just noticed he hadn't moved for a while and there you go. We buried him in the bottom of the garden and me and some guys from work gave him a good send off . Just to draw some parallels with the OP. Was he happy and healthy? I'd like to think so. Was he living in ideal conditions, that's open to interpretation. If you take something out of the wild then you have a massive responsibility, but what if something has never been wild? The only thing you can cater for is its inbuilt instinct and the OP is making his fish chase for food and providing stimulus for something that's never seen a river in its life. I suppose there's always two sides to every story.

 

[mort]

With regards to dogs, I think many true dog owners couldn't care less what they have. Our first family dog was a spaniel collie cross and she died at the ripe old age of 17.5 yrs, our next dog was a golden retriever that was pure pedigree and she had plenty of health problems before her back legs went and we had to do something at 10 yrs, after that we didn't want a pedigree but rather a cross hopefully with some hybrid vigour. Most people with pedegrees seem to have more trouble and a lot switch back to cross breeds later because of it. They are seen as a luxury so it won't matter what they are they will still have value, a friend has a lovely heinz 57 variety and she had to pay a lot for it because the pups were so in demand. I'd rather splash out the cash for one than get a pedegrees and see the vet bills overtake it in short order.

 

[zozo]

I used to have small chicken breed running around in my garden.. And one time had 2 rabbits over for the holidays, they stayed about 2 weeks. They ran around in the same space as the chicken. Man i had fun observing it, rabbits definitively have a sense of humor.. Overall they did very well together, but now and then the rabbits liked to chase the chickens around.. For fun i guess. I realy see no other reason why else a rabbit would chase a chicken. But they did, never got physical, but sometimes if a chicken came close jump towards it making a fake attack and scare the chicken away. Minutes later they were peacefully close again. I should have recorded it on video. It only took 2 days before a chicken confiscated the rabbit-hutch to lay eggs. Anyway rabbits and chicken are an adorable pet combination.. Had a lot of laughs those 2 weeks.

 

[mort]

The history of it is I follow the guy and when some people expressed interest in his non co2 tanks I invited him here to the forum to discuss them. Told him there was friendly open discussion here and we'd like to talk about his techniques. The way the post was heading last night I thought I'd inadvertently walked him into a hostile landing zone. I didn't realise how contentious these fish are so felt a bit bad about it.



You guys haven't let me down and I can stand by what I said, I apologise for doubting you all. I've just seen so many of these things turn nasty before especially in Facebook groups etc but you're right, not discussing it is a far worse option. Nothing ever gets sorted that way.

It would be really interesting to hear his opinions as we are just looking at the video and making assumptions. As I said before it looks a very well cared for fish and it might be that he tried decor and enrichment in the tank and that it had to be removed because of the fish. From what I have read or seen about them in the past, they are so destructive and ornery that you have no real sensible option but to keep them in a bare setup. For many of us that might not look right but would having a couple of rocks or driftwood that it might ignore have much affect. It's arguably no worse than putting small schoolers that like cover in a iwagumi.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

It would be really interesting to hear his opinions as we are just looking at the video and making assumptions. As I said before it looks a very well cared for fish and it might be that he tried decor and enrichment in the tank and that it had to be removed because of the fish.

Yeah I tagged him in earlier in the post to get his side then regretted it thinking he was going to get tore a new one by the purists. Not sure if he still hangs out here or just popped in when we were discussing his non co2 soil tank. Depending on his settings he may have got an email saying he'd had a mention.

With regards to dogs, I think many true dog owners couldn't care less what they have. Our first family dog was a spaniel collie cross and she died at the ripe old age of 17.5 yrs, our next dog was a golden retriever that was pure pedigree and she had plenty of health problems before her back legs went and we had to do something at 10 yrs, after that we didn't want a pedigree but rather a cross hopefully with some hybrid vigour. Most people with pedegrees seem to have more trouble and a lot switch back to cross breeds later because of it. They are seen as a luxury so it won't matter what they are they will still have value, a friend has a lovely heinz 57 variety and she had to pay a lot for it because the pups were so in demand. I'd rather splash out the cash for one than get a pedegrees and see the vet bills overtake it in short order.

Friend of mine has a chihuahua which suffers from explosive diarrhoea if you feed it anything except one certain brand of dog food. The vets had them try other foods to no avail so that's all it eats. The best bit of having a dog is sharing a few bits of your own food with it and it feeling part of the pack. What a life for the dog!

I've only had one dog which as mentioned was from a guy who worked dogs and had Jack Russels but the neighbours Patterdale terrier got in amongst one day by using a kennel roof to breach the compound The one I got was the runt of the litter and the mother rejected it so we didn't think it would make it, put it in a basket with a hot water bottle and a ticking clock to simulate the mothers heartbeat and had her for 16 or so years. When I left home my parents kept her as they spent most of the time walking her anyway and I had work commitments away from home. I don't have the time a dog needs for another these days so I'll just walk someone else's when I get the chance and time. If I ever was to get another I'd just pick one from the pound. Seems pointless buying them when there's some without a home.

 

[BubblingUnder]

but now and then the rabbits liked to chase the chickens around.. For fun i guess

Used to have a rabbit who chased our cat around. The cat would stalk it then get chased by the rabbit when it got too close (that bunny was rock hard).

 

[zozo]

It would be really interesting to hear his opinions as we are just looking at the video and making assumptions.

Read the youtube comments bellow the video.. There he gets simmular criticism of all kind and he also kinda explains his motivations why it is what it is.. So i guess he's arleady hardenet.. Nothing said here that yet isn't said there and more.