Who needs a dog.

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Never thought of that actually, I'll check them out. I do know at some point earlier on in keeping this fish that it had smashed its head off something and had a bit of a war wound which had cleared up which would go some way to explaining the lack of hardscape.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Checked the comments @zozo as in this forum lot of mixed feelings and i don't think this is Foo's final destination. However while following links I came across the King of DIY and Frank. I think he can explain things far better than I could so if you have the time watch it all. I think I might get it, not that it's for me but I sort of see the point and he explains the reason these fish are kept the way they are and why they are popular with some people. It's all about the fish, its a pet. Its not about creating a small slice of nature in our homes and our family looking at it from afar its about having a fish in your house that is part of the family. I can understand that from my Discus days when I had a pair of blue cobalts, there was something about them and the way they interacted, they were on a different level emotionally from any other fish I'd kept.

I don't think it sat well with a lot of people here because most of us are nature people who try as much as we can to replicate that. The unfortunate thing about Flowerhorns is they don't belong to nature, they're man made. A product of our own selfishness? They're here now and not much we can do about it other than treat them the best we can. Whether or not we should let the animal fade out though stopping any breeding and discourage people from buying them is another argument I guess. There's plenty of other large Cichlids with big personalities that do belong to nature to pick from. Anyway, this has been an interesting journey for me, glad the post kept going @Tim Harrison BTW, I sort of feel empathy towards them now.

 

[tam]

Its not about creating a small slice of nature in our homes and our family looking at it from afar its about having a fish in your house that is part of the family.

A slice of nature is one way to providing an environment that allows animals to exhibit normal behaviour patterns, however, it doesn't have to be done that way. Here's an example of providing an outlet for one aspect of cats hunting instinct. No live mice involved, instead the cat hunts down balls, which it can then exchange for food, rather than having the food left sitting in a bowl. The result is a cat that uses it's brain and body more, improving fitness and mental well-being.



For fish, depending on species, releasing food into a current so they chase down 'moving' items would be one example of adding enrichment and allowing for natural behaviour patterns.

Enrichment shouldn't take away from your relationship, if anything it adds to it. You see a much wider range of interesting behaviours and animals tend to live longer, healthier lives.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

What an amazing cat! there's a zoo round where I live, at a certain time of day which was the highlight they would put a side of beef at the top of a telegraph pole and release the Sumatran tigers which had to climb the pole to get the food, stopped them becoming lazy feeders and made them work for their food like they do in nature. Even when you throw a ball for a dog its just fulfilling its instinct to chase something down and fetch it back to the pack. I talked my brother out of getting one of those collars that gives a little electric shock for his dog which kept barking at passers by while he was trying to kip for night shift. That's what the dog is meant to do, he's warning the pack of something coming while other members of the pack rest and he is its pack. Its akin to the frozen snake story where the guy defrosts it and the snake bites him. You knew it was a snake when you defrosted it, you knew it was a dog when you bought it so don't expect it not behave like a dog. But then again, my brother already thinks I'm nuts anyway

Same applies to the Flowerhorn. its instinct is to clear an area and being such a big powerful fish that's quite aggressive it will have a go anyway even with a large rock running the risk of smashing the tank or injuring itself so what do you do. I suppose the only option is to put something in there to push around that won't do any harm. The glitter ball doesn't seem so Psychopathic now does it? I was actually thinking about something like a couple of dogs rubber bones that it could shove about, imagine if I'd posted a picture of my fish with a couple of rubber bones in the tank Ultimately he'd just put something that attracts attention in to keep the fish occupied. The fish has fulfilled some of its needs, its seen something that's caught its eye, evaluated whether it flight or fight time, decided to take it on and push it around out of its territory and more importantly kept itself entertained for a while. No harm done, just looked a bit weird to us but no weirder than say someone on a cycling machine in the gym but then driving home in the car I guess.

 

[zozo]

A product of our own selfishness?

As so many things are, i think you kinda did hit the nail.. They are kept because they are bred and so they can and will be kept. All and all with personality features added up you could ask the question, should i keep one? And why? In respect of the fish and its true needs the answer is rather simple.. As product of our own selfishness? Now that's a somewhat different topic i guess. It equals the pedigree dog story... We do because we can, physically, realisticaly more often not but that's a later problem we try to solve along the way or can choose to ignore.

Joey should do a remake and review of this vids topic after his fatal Arowana experience, he probably will talk little different than he did in this video and likely rewind the 9.15 scene a few times over again. No pun intented, i like the guy and i did learn a great deal from his ideas and i'm following him already for years. And what he says in that scene i can find part of myself..

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Its certainly opened up a lot of questions about the hobby. I watched a video the other week about a respected fish keeper and in his fish room he had a row of betta tanks with no decoration probably for ease of maintenance and cleanliness. Once a day he exercised the fish by pulling out the white plastic dividers from between the tanks so they could display to each other. Imagine being in a glass box for 23 hours then a partition removed for an hour so you could row with your neighbour then back 23 hours of nothingness.

Al lot if fish are spawned in bare tanks then moved to a community tank. If this tank is full of dayglo plastic plants, divers wrecks and no fishing signs does the fish care what they are? It only wants some cover from predators, it just looks ridiculous to us and our perception of what we think the fish wants based on some ancient ancestor it had somewhere down its lineage.

 

[tam]

If this tank is full of dayglo plastic plants, divers wrecks and no fishing signs does the fish care what they are? It only wants some cover from predators, it just looks ridiculous to us and our perception of what we think the fish wants based on some ancient ancestor it had somewhere down its lineage.

I think you are right, they probably don't care - we have the concept of a 'ship wreck' but to a fish it's just a weirdly shaped rock and still provides cover. We know that wool spawning mops are often attractive to fish, even though they are unnatural materials. You could certainly investigate things like plastic plant colour and fish preference. Maybe there are colours they prefer over others in terms of camouflage or even colours that would be considered dangerous. I don't think you'd always find that things that were very unnatural looking to us were offensive to fish. Just like some 'natural' appearing decoration might be unsuitable - rough gravel for corys for example.

I think if rubber bones gave him the opportunity to play out natural behaviours without causing harm then it would be a brilliant idea. Like you say, it's still providing an outlet for all those instincts even if the youtube comments would be an interesting read!

 

[zozo]

Not so long ago i saw this at a local LFS.. It kinda shocked me, looked at the shops clerck and said wtf is this.. He looked at me like i was from another planet and replied it's quite common and normal. I din't go into it any further, it's beyond any help...

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

"I think if rubber bones gave him the opportunity to play out natural behaviours without causing harm then it would be a brilliant idea"

From what I've seen so far they also like to get their teeth into things as well so it will give them something practice on instead of their owners fingers

Pushing a rubber bone about would be no different in the fish 's head than pushing a lp of wood out of its spawning territory.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk

 

[lazybones51]

Not so long ago i saw this at a local LFS.. It kinda shocked me, looked at the shops clerck and said wtf is this.. He looked at me like i was from another planet and replied it's quite common and normal. I din't go into it any further, it's beyond any help...

There's a store fairly local to me with a display very similar to this. I was new to the hobby at the time and knew nothing of Betta's, so I was shocked to see fish kept in such cramped conditions. I've not been there since... which is a shame as they have some nice items in stock.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Marginally better than my LFS who used to leave them in the bags they came in

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[Zeus.]

If you want to go angling in Germany you need to do an exam first and pass ofcourse before you get the permit..

Wasn't aware of that Well the Germans have it right IMO, too many anglers dont look after the environment IMO.

 

[zozo]

Wasn't aware of that Well the Germans have it right IMO, too many anglers dont look after the environment IMO.

That's indeed what happens in my country.. Always find nylon lines on the floor and other crap.. In a way it commes handy to find evidence of poaching on waters without permition. They always leaf something behing, empty cans, lines. broken floaters, bottles etc. Uneducated dirtbags.. And that's different in Germany.. I remember thay also had a law, that you need to kill any fish you catch and take it home, eat it or make petfood what ever. Releasing a stressed and wounded fish was not permited. That's why German anglers never were welcome on Dutch waters so to speak. Because our regulation is contrary, throw it back so another angler can have fun later. For so far you can call that fun or a sport at all. I always called angling for sport "malicious pleasure".. Anyway Dutch anglers always accused and cry baby about the German anglers from stealing fish. Nowadays i believe the law is modarated since the high popularity of carp fishing. Tho carp dish is still considered a delicasy in Germany, it's something they make during silvester like americans make turkey for thanksgiving.

But indeed Germans are pretty Gründlich and educate the kids in a fair way about invironment. Overall their law system is rather fair instead of crooked.. For example we pay monthly road tax calculated over the weight of the car, even if you don't drive the darn thing you pay full tax. It'sactualy called ownership tax.. what kind of person thinks of this crazy tax law.. In Germany you pay no road taxat all but emmision tax, dirty car you pay a lot, invironmental friendly car you pay less. Very simple and very fair people get stimulated to build a catalisis in their car and it pays back.

Rather remarkeble that our goverment complains about invironment but when it comes to educating and stimulate the public they lak because then the need to change the system and that means a lot of work it will cost money.. Rather lazy than tired, complain and leave it as is.. Idiots..

 

[BubblingUnder]

throw it back so another angler can have fun later. For so far you can call that fun or a sport at all. I always called angling for sport

Anglers return fish in many countries (with quotas for taking some) this is due to that popularity of the sport & so that it doesn't affect fish stocks which is especially important in smaller countries such as the UK. Anglers also fund legal action against polluters who kill fish by releasing chemicals that organisation is called 'Fish Legal' in the UK. They are also generally speaking the first to report fish deaths by pollution to the authorities reducing mortality. See this link for fish legal http://www.fishlegal.net/ . Anglers also create & maintain aquatic environments without them many aquatic habits & their wildlife would have been destroyed for farming.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Regardless of where you stand on the Flowerhorn subject you need to check the same guys no filter no co2 tank. Amazing tank with amazing camera work. I could watch it all night.

 

[alto]

Regards that Betta display system, shop Bettas do much better in this system than the still (sealed!) cups used by many big box chains, the tiny bags are meant for shipping only & it's expected that Bettas will be transferred to freshwater at destination ...
The biggest problem with this display system is shop staff that don't do any water changes, though at least fish are fed & are able to extend their fins without touching the cup sides
At sale, the container & Betta are sold as a unit, so new Bettas always go into clean cups (of course that's of limited use if no water changes are done)
This is designed as a holding system with the assumption that Bettas will sell on each week (& most do)

Another problem with this system is breakdowns which are rarely repaired - it needs a good bit of maintenance to run properly & few shops do this ... too costly??? I've no idea ... But the system was developed with the idea of improving shop life for Bettas

It's usually easy enough to sort out the shops that care for their Bettas - regardless of display system - I've seen obviously ill/depressed Bettas displayed in 2-4 litre jars, & healthy/active Bettas in the Elive systems

This is a well worth the time article including photos/video from Melbourne Betta visit to Thailand (in search of breeding stock)

 

[alto]

Amazing tank with amazing camera work. I could watch it all night.

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