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Duckweed(amazon frogbit) dead. Nutritient deficiency? Which one?

Joined
26 Feb 2013
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3,412
Hi,
I am having problems growing floating plants. The amazon frogbit totally died(pictures at the bottom of the thread)
Does anyone know what fertilizer deficiency this could be? For the record, there's almost no snails in the tank. It's got clown loaches so besides the ones finding refugee in the filter, I don't think I've got any around the tank, so I don't think something ate the frogbit. I used to have salvinia minima too, it actually died with the same symptoms and I took it out. The frogbit just lasted a bit longer but is going too it seems.
Thanks for your help.

The tank is 330 litres.
I have bottles of N, P, K, Fe, micro ferts and liquid carbon, all by Easylife profito. Where do I start and at what dosage if I presume I've got something 0-ed out.
Unfortunately I don't have a Gh or Kh test kit but the Ph is 7.4 and I have no idea whether there's enough calcium or magnesium. I've never dosed them as I presumed the water is hard but I can invest in some powdered stuff it needs be, but not certain what to get.
dscf3980tu.jpg


dscf3983i.jpg
 
I used to do EI, but they didn't do well then either, very short roots and not that large leaves. I had a massive problem with green spot algae.
For the last 5 weeks or so I am dosing PMDD, cut down on light too in the process(2x39 T5 HO on a 330l at the moment, 8hrs split in 4hrs with a break of 4hrs) and just liquid carbon, all dosed daily. So that isn't helping but the green spot algae is history. After reading about the "duckweed" method for fert indicator I really want to figure out what I am short on. Plants are doing great at the moment unlike the duckweed but by the looks of it there's a major shortage in the tank.
Water changes are still 50% weekly.
It could be magnesium I guess since I never dosed any and the same happened in another tank after I managed to transfer some to this one. They just start getting these large holes like big bites in the middle and the sides and stop growing altogether.
What dosage magnesium should I try and which one would you recommend to get?
 
Hi
All aquariums are unique you may have a underlying problem.......looks like the plants may have been attacked by some bug/mite.
I'm not a great lover of siestas for a planted tank.
You could try adding MgSo4 dry.....2 teaspoons 3x...week to see if there is any improvement.
MgSo4/Epsom salt is widely available cheap.
hoggie
 
Thanks Hoggie. I'll try to get some.
Maybe it's some tiny bugs. I did find a couple of white ones actually when I scooped the plants but I had never seen them in this tank before. I do have seed shrimp in the other tank where the floaters died miserably too and I could have transfered them to this tank via the floating plants but I didn't think they'd eat healthy plants.
What is the down side of siestas?
 
Hi all,
Definitely looks both eaten and nutrient deficient. Magnesium (Mg) is a definite possibility, but it is more likely to be N (nitrogen & most likely) or potassium (K).

The other reason you get holes in the leaves is if water drops land on them? and you then get lensing and leaf burn.

Have a look at these: <Duckweed index ferts advice | UK Aquatic Plant Society>, <Low maintainence, long term sustrate | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <Plants with Deficiency of something | UK Aquatic Plant Society>

cheers Darrel
 
Thank you. I forgot to menion I tried keepingq the lid open for a week to rule out condensation. I'll try the magnesium route. I'll try with your suggestions and see how it goes. I saved very little bit of it in another tank as well, hopefully I'll have some left to experiment with by the time I buy some magnesium.
 
Will be interested to see if you figure this out. My frogbit seems to be bombproof in pretty much any tank I add it to, but when selling it on I've had a couple of people for whom it's completely melted.

Hi Tom
I bet you sent it down South?
I think your location's area may have a clue.
I think we should have the area underneath the persons avatar....like previously.
This will help some what.....regarding water parameters.
hoggie
 
Hi all

If you have any KNO3 I'd try that first or as well. Magnesium deficiency usually produces "interveinal chlorosis", and Mg is a micro-nutrient, so plants only need about 1/10 as much Mg as they need N and K.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel. I have K and KNO3. I'll dose up. The magnesium thing sounds even more appealing because when I think of it, I have on regular basis "intervenal chlorosis" from time to time on my plants in all tanks which comes and goes and I was never able to figure it out. I thought it's iron deficiency.
My "hard" water after all maybe rich on calcium and very little magnesium or is it possible the other way around?
How can I figure the calcium/magnesium relation?
 
Hi all,
I have dolomite at home. It's pure 100% CaMg(CO3)2 white powder Is it safe to put some(how much) or should I better do the MgSO4 when I get it?
You can use the dolomite, it is just limestone where some the calcium has been replaced by magnesium. It will raise dKH and is only sparingly soluble. Epsom Salts (MgSO4.7H2O) is much more soluble and won't raise dKH. What ever it says on the tub it is the heptahydrate - MgSO4.7H2O.

Often problems with both Mg and iron (Fe) deficiency are to do with the large amount of Ca (or K) interfering with uptake, rather than absolute levels. However, my suspicion would be that at least 9/10 of both magnesium and iron "deficiencies" are really nitrogen or potassium deficiencies.

Nitrogen, potassium and magnesium are all mobile within the plant, so it is the older leaves that tend to show symptoms first. If your plants are "all over pale" green, nitrogen is by far the likeliest limiting nutrient. Because of this mobility you should get a fairly quick greening (in 3 - 4 days).

This is also why the "duckweed index" works, the plants have access to atmospheric CO2, so CO2 is taken out of the equation, and you get a quick response to the nutrients you add.
My "hard" water after all maybe rich on calcium and very little magnesium or is it possible the other way around?
If you in the S. of the UK you are unlikely to have much magnesium in your water supply, as the chalk and oolitic limestone aquifers are pure calcium carbonate.

cheers Darrel
 
This is a long thread below, sorry for all the explanations but might help understanding what's happening to this tank.

The green chlorosis was actually on the newer leaves. I didn't bother taking pictures as it was gross but found one that shows it a bit. It's from beginning of December. The plants were gone totally wrong, green spot algae, brown tips on the amazon swords and aponogeton, green chlorosis, etc.. A batch of amazon frogbit and salvinia minima had already miserably died after struggling for a month but flourished in another tank so I had a chance to try again middle of December. I wanted to use it to block light because I thought it would help with the GSA.
Below is a recent pictured history of the tank.

Beginning of December 2012. EI dosing. No floating plants survived. Surface clear.
Here next to the pleco's nose you can see the green veins in the anubias nana. All anubias were somewhat like it but it was the new leaves rather than the old ones. The old leaves of amazon swords and aponogeton had brown tips here and there as in the picture below(the left thin leaf is amazon sword)
dscf2943d.jpg


Around the 1st-2nd of December 2012.
New leaves get attacked by GSA in no time, starting like this:
dscf2759z.jpg


And then getting like this:
dscf2761h.jpg



About the 9th of December this tank still has no surviving floaters but the ones in the other tank started dying as well so I decided to transfer some to save them and give them a chance here again. I put salvinia minima and amazon frogbit. They started multiplying rapidly for the next 3-4 weeks.
Here it's the salvinia minima mostly flourishing. Pic taken on the 6th of January 2013
dscf3429k.jpg


After this picture, the salvinia minima went downhill. Still full EI dose at this stage. So I decided to bin 23rd of January but unfortunately no picture taken with it with the holes. However, the amazon frogbit was still ok. At this stage the 2nd tank I got the floating plants from to reload this one, had no surviving floaters. I put two small salvinia minima survivors in a 3rd tank(betta small tank) and it has multiplied since and still doing ok there.
Here is a picture from the 23rd of January just after I binned the salvinia.
dscf3567.jpg


I was still battling the GSA and then I read an interview with Amano Takashi on GSA. Surprisingly he said excessive nutritients(although every one claims there's no such a thing), higher temperatures(my tank falls within the ones he said), lack of water changes(that wasn't the issue as I'd done a lot and big) all lead to GSA. So from these three factors, temperature wasn't changeable, water changes were done, I was left to cutting down the nutritient dosage after trying overdosing on all to stop it, particularly fosfo, nitro and potassium. I did two major water changes and started dosing lean(just a bit over PMDD) I cut out the nitrAtes and fosfo. I know the nitrAte test is unreliable but between 4 tanks, this one was off the scale before the big water changes and PMDD. TDS used to creep up during EI regardless of water changes. The tank is well stocked(big pleco and 5 clown loaches and lots of small fish)

4-5 weeks after cutting the doses but keeping the rest of the factors, same amount of light and carbon, inclusive of 50% water changes) I got improvements on the GSA. The anubias started flowering and no green spot algae on 4 new leaves, one is at the back. Same effect on the other anubias, growing darker bigger healhty leaves and leaves don't develop GSA anymore.
dscf3838r.jpg



So when I think of it, possibly I've got N, P, K and even magnesium defficiency but I am still dosing potassium, micros and extra iron, but maybe not enough potassium because I've cut down. However, the pattern of dying floaters is in more than one tank, twice on this one, once with EI and once with PMDD. They first died when I did EI, after a month struggling, then on the 2nd attempt just the salvinia died when still EI, then whether coincidental or not, the amazon frogbit did die when no N and P added to the tank but the rest of the plants had a massive improvement during this time unlike the amazon frogbit. Generally, the pattern for floaters is a month and a half of thriving as in taking excessive nutritients, then going downhill in the space of week or two when done the job.
On a side note, my other tanks aren't dosed with nutritients or CO2 and do not have any visible algae. They do get the occassional nutritient deficiency which I try to correct the way I know but no algae. However, I've no idea what's happening to the floaters. Maybe it is bugs after all :)

So the plan is now to dose N and K(what ppm do you recommend?) and get magnesium as I've never tried extra of it. I just want to be careful because I just won't cope with another GSA outbreak.
 
I've always found adding more p04 will rid GSA. It doesn't take long to get working either.
 
Tbh, I suffered more GSA when I was using pure Lincolnshire tap water, which is hard as nails.
 
Did you ensure the distribution was good around the tank?

I can't be certain I got the flow completely right but from what I could see all plants were swaying, some even more. It used to be 20x the tank volume an hour flow. I removed a powerhead only a week ago as it was impossible to direct without doing mechanical damage to some plants in this tank.
 
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