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The Nymph's Spring (EA900)

@shangman let me know how you get on with the UV, I’m debating over the TMC one or the Eheim one as I like the fittings on it.

As for the fish, I’ve been there and had to euthanise using clove oil, it’s probably the best thing you can actually do for your fish now. Then claim yourself a fresh start.
Whichever you choose will be what’s best for you, just know that there’s no judgement if you decide to start all over again.
I bet most of us would in a heartbeat.
 
Hi Rosie,
I've just been catching up on your journal, I'm so sorry to hear about everything that has gone on, what an absolutely terrible time you've had.
Like you, I have worried about fish TB in the past as fish gradually die from nonspecific symptoms. I have just never had it confirmed. I'm currently running a plant only tank so it's less of an issue!

However, between Diana's mycobactum document and this aquaculture document, I feel like UV may beg some more exploration. I certainly need to do some more reading.
It sounds very much like MB is endemic in ornamental fish culture, pet stores, and commercial aquaculture (even in fresh watersupply owing to its chlorine resistance).
It makes me wonder if running our tank water through UV sterilizers (at the correct flow rates) at least a couple of times a day might not be a very good prophylactic and it is likely better for fish than medications. This probably applies to all fish diseases especially as fish tend to actively shed disease before showing signs. I wonder if a discussion on UV sterilizers might not be warranted in its own thread?

You know I have been puzzled about this too, that apparently it's everywhere but often doesn't affect anything. There are about 20 species of Mycobacterium, and I wonder if they often use the generic staining test which doesn't indicate which type it is, if it doesn't actually affect the fish with granulomas then maybe it is just one of the less harful kinds. My theory is that many of the less harmful ones are everywhere, and that the very harmful ones (which I have and which causes granulomas) are rarer, this disease has been so nasty it's impossible to ignore. The generic one that kills very slowly over months and years doesn't seem like as much of a problem for a tank than what my tank has caught which has just ravaged the fish, and also much less obvious too, I wonder if people would ever notice it, unless they didn't buy fish for many years and kept one population like Walstad did.

Thank you for that article, I'll have a read through that now. I'm currently running the UV from 8pm - 10am, so I can dose fertiliser and it doesn't chelate the iron before the plants can use it. When I researched into UV it did look like a good option, but also often was confusing too and talking in terms I don't quite understand (redox). I think a separate discussion would be good, I will also at some point make a thread that just goes through my experience with the FishTB for others who think they might have it in the future. Bit too sad about it to start it now though tbh. I think at the moment I just need to get over the shock and sadness of it before I can regroup in a few days and make a better decision. Every option seems exhausting right now.

To answer your question as I was typing while you posted! I think I would immediately euthanase any obviously sick fish but I'd probably keep anything that looks ok for now.

Truly sterilizing a tank and filter will mean stripping it cleaning it and then running it with diluted chlorine bleach (we seal and fog areas in healthcare as well as using UV) for a period of time to get into every little crevice, but that would include nets, pipes, buckets the works and throwing away pretty much everything that is living or hard to clean like wood. Even then if there is any reservoir you've missed you will immediately reintroduce it at low levels or it could come in on the next fish that you buy...
Changing the substrate out and giving everything a good clean, filters pipes etc to try and get rid of as much biofilm as possible would be ideal but it will place huge stress on the fish which are already fighting MB, unless there is another tank they can go straight into?

I'm also wondering if twinstar reactors and or ozone may be of use?
I have been euthanising fish as soon as they have a symptom, since I killed all the pencils last week I haven't noticed any obvious symptoms, but they often come on very quickly. Energy seems lower in the tank but that might be my imagination tbh

Sadly there isn't another tank for them to go into, all my other tanks are tiny, and also in the offchance they don't have the TB I don't want to introduce it. In my two nanos with fish, one (23L) has ricefish where none have ever died but it's in the same room as my big <Nymphs Spring> tank and I'm sure I've swapped plants over before in the past few months, and the second (45L) has a betta and chili rasboras. In this tank the rasboras have gone from 12 to 7 over the past few months so I am suspicous, but the betta seems very healthy, and from what I've read FishTB really hurts bettas so maybe this tank has been spared idk. Maybe I should but I can't bear to destroy everything in every tank, so I will be buying all new buckets, pipes, cleaning equipment and work out a new regime to make things as safe as possible. I set up a third nano at Christmas with my dad that I haven't shared yet, for ricefish babies and crystal shrimps, I think that one should be safe as everything in it is new. I won't buy any new fish to these tanks though, and when the fish eventually die I will do a hard cleaning as you describe in every one, and I'm going to get all new buckets, pipes, cleaning equipment, etc.

I will eventually do the BIG CLEAN as you describe in the big tank, I guess the question is when. Do I wait and see what happens, try UV and other treatments, or cut my losses and start again? Or some hybrid idk. If I did a rescape/cleaning with all new sand at least the fish would just be in buckets for a few hours and could go back in without extra ammonia and stuff.

Not sure about the twinstar/ozone, I guess that's worth an investigation too, I've never been sure what it did to be honest!

@shangman let me know how you get on with the UV, I’m debating over the TMC one or the Eheim one as I like the fittings on it.

As for the fish, I’ve been there and had to euthanise using clove oil, it’s probably the best thing you can actually do for your fish now. Then claim yourself a fresh start.
Whichever you choose will be what’s best for you, just know that there’s no judgement if you decide to start all over again.
I bet most of us would in a heartbeat.
For installing the TMC was very easy, though it does stick out the back of my cabinet a bit as it's so large. You can't see it though. It also looks like it will be easy to clean.

This is the thing also, is how many fish are suffering in the tank but I don't know? The pencilfish I gave to the vet were RIDDLED with granulomas, it is possible my fish have them and the obvious symptoms just aren't there yet. The most important thing is for my fish not to suffer. It's quite subjective though.

You are right, I think it's such a grim thing to happen that there aren't really any right answers. I may not euthanise immediately, btu I think I will before the end of the year, and probably sooner if things take an obvious turn for the worst. Maybe very soon, I'm not sure yet tbh. I think if my apistos start to look bad then that's that.
Interesting review article on MB in fish Microorganisms 2020, 8(9), 1368

Did the vet tell you what strain of MB your fish had?
I'll read this one asap too!

I don't know the strain sadly. I'll just upload the sort PDF of results I got from the vet
 
Reading up again, most people just destroy everything living in the tank and start again after thoroughly cleaning the equipment. I think I will do this eventually,
Its a tough call mate. Personally I'd run this as a closed system, euthanize the sickly fish as and when it seemed the leser of two evils and when all the critters have passed, which could be weeks or months, do a complete re start.

Caveats to the above is your personal health. If you've any existing conditions that would weaken your immune system then the risks to yourself need pushing to the forefront.
If your health is good and you practice sensible tank hygiene then I don't see why you couldn't manage this tank longterm.

I suppose the question is Rosie do you need time to mourn, or would an instant clean break be best? Only you can answer that.
 
I really do feel for you. I don't think that there is an easy answer here.
It seems like there are some main disease-causing (rapidly fatal) strains and some that are present all the time in the environment and only strike if a fish is weakened or stressed.
I guess the better question is why one species of MB suddenly reproduces so aggressively. It's a shame the vets weren't able to tell you the exact type but I realise that there are cost implications to more tests. I also note ' Mycobactum are relatively common in aquarium fish' on the report. I genuinely suspect that many fish have MB granulomas.

In humans, granuloma formation is typically the chronic not acute form of TB, though it's one of the reasons it is so hard to treat.

I see no harm in giving everything a good clean, perhaps in stages and as John says run it as a closed system. Sadly I suspect unless there has been no cross over of substrate, filter media, nets etc the other tanks are quite likely infected. 🙁
To give an idea of the lengths that you need to go to to truly remove it from a system see: Overview of a Disease Outbreak and Introduction of a Step-by-Step Protocol for the Eradication of Mycobacterium haemophilum in a Zebrafish System

Unless the shop that you got the fish from has bleached it's entire system I suspect that most of their fish will have some degree of infection.
 
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You know I have been puzzled about this too, that apparently it's everywhere but often doesn't affect anything.
This is what I don’t get either, surely this must be in every aquarium shop around or nearly every one. Regardless of whether shops quarantine this will come in through water, may not show itself for months. It Has many symptoms that can be taken as other diseases so will be misdiagnosed.

It’s strange how every tank isn’t riddled with it.
 
Mycobacterium marinum infection in fish and man: epidemiology, pathophysiology and management; a review
Occurrence of Mycobacterium spp. in ornamental fish
Both of the above suggest around a 30-50% infection rate in ornamental fish which makes it hard to believe that most of us haven't exposed our tanks at some point and that all petshops likely have..
It kind of suggests to me that something at some point tips the balance to favour MB eg another infection.

Identification Mycobacterium spp. in the Natural Water of Two Austrian Rivers
Present in most river samples it would seem
 
Hi Rosie,
I've read your posts, been for a walk & am back at my table, painting, looking at my two tanks but still I don't know what I would do or advise.
I'm about as far removed from a scientist as you can get but even I have wondered why this disease has devastated your tank, especially when shops buy from the same wholesalers, it should be everywhere.
If the remaining fish are looking fairly good then run it as a closed system but be prepared to euthanase everything should it deteriorate. Though this depends on how you are feeling, if you end up dreading what you'll find at lights on then your health becomes more important & a complete restart would probably be best.
Sorry for the ramble but whatever decision you choose to make you'll have plenty of support here. 😻
 
Just caught up with this and want to say thank you for sharing everything in so much detail. There are loads of anecdotal reports out there but this does provide a good source of what to look for.

I've not had to deal with it personally but met a guy that had quite a bad time after he contracted it, so definitely put your own health first.

If it were me I'd stick with things as they are. If all fish succumb, how long can MB live without a host? If it's present in all water, how long does it take for numbers to reduce to a safe level when there's no host and you're running a UV? Just thinking that you should be able to save your scape and avoid stripping everything, while still ensuring the environment is safe to reintroduce fish if MB numbers can be reduced to background levels with normal water changes/UV sterilisation.

If things with your other fish stabilise as horrible as it sounds I guess it makes things a bit trickier as there will be a host so maybe wait for things to stabilise and then wait another 6 months. I'd imagine any ongoing or long term damage should show up in that time.

Just a thought that occured to me, have you checked your waterbutt(s) for any 'foreign' objects? I remember you had a slug die in one. I also use rainwater so not having ago here but wondering if something got into the waterbutt and that was the potential source of MB? Just trying to understand where it stemmed from.

Sorry for the lengthy ramble and asking more questions that I've provided answers/suggestions.

All the best and hope things improve.
 
Its a tough call mate. Personally I'd run this as a closed system, euthanize the sickly fish as and when it seemed the leser of two evils and when all the critters have passed, which could be weeks or months, do a complete re start.

Caveats to the above is your personal health. If you've any existing conditions that would weaken your immune system then the risks to yourself need pushing to the forefront.
If your health is good and you practice sensible tank hygiene then I don't see why you couldn't manage this tank longterm.

I suppose the question is Rosie do you need time to mourn, or would an instant clean break be best? Only you can answer that.
I am in good health, but my dad is a bit less so and he gets eczema on his hands which I think makes dealing with the tanks dodgier. We have got gloves for all the tanks coming today, but it's just so easy to put your hands in not thinking! He doesn't do anything to do with this tank, but I think we can assume it is in his one too as we shared buckets and pipes until recently (when I started reading about the TB, but the pencils had been in the tank almost 2 months by then).

I don't think I can bear to do an instant clean break, I think it would be too depressing seeing an empty tank for the weeks and months after. I will change the scape eventually because tbh this one is feeling quite tainted, but will wait for a few months and watch the fish for any decline/improvements while saving up and working out what that next scape could be, and if the fish seem well enough for them to live in it. I do have an idea for it, but I would need to wait for my friend who would help to be less busy too which will be in late May. If I've got to do this, I'm going to make something f*cking fabulous next to make it worth it. Even though this has been awful, it doesn't make me love the hobby less, or want to quit or anything, I've just recieved a particularly bad bit of luck. Such is life!!




I really do feel for you. I don't think that there is an easy answer here.
It seems like there are some main disease-causing (rapidly fatal) strains and some that are present all the time in the environment and only strike if a fish is weakened or stressed.
I guess the better question is why one species of MB suddenly reproduces so aggressively. It's a shame the vets weren't able to tell you the exact type but I realise that there are cost implications to more tests. I also note ' Mycobactum are relatively common in aquarium fish' on the report. I genuinely suspect that many fish have MB granulomas.

In humans, granuloma formation is typically the chronic not acute form of TB, though it's one of the reasons it is so hard to treat.

I see no harm in giving everything a good clean, perhaps in stages and as John says run it as a closed system. Sadly I suspect unless there has been no cross over of substrate, filter media, nets etc the other tanks are quite likely infected. 🙁
To give an idea of the lengths that you need to go to to truly remove it from a system see: Overview of a Disease Outbreak and Introduction of a Step-by-Step Protocol for the Eradication of Mycobacterium haemophilum in a Zebrafish System

Unless the shop that you got the fish from has bleached it's entire system I suspect that most of their fish will have some degree of infection.
Thank you for another useful link!!

I think the closed system is the best way for now. I am wondering are the fish going to continue to die like before? Since I have killed the pencils no other fish have died which I think is a good sign. I think it is worth it to see if it progresses further or not for a while at least, and if they do then I know that euthanising is the course forward. TBH I'm mostly waiting to see if the apistos are gonna suffer from it, they were born and raised in my tanks and they are the ones I feel worst about. I also feel bad for the kuhli loaches, as they can live for 10 years, I suspect they are happily living in caves in the tank, even if I never see them. I was going to give them away one day but can't do that any more.

Personally I won't be going to the shop I bought the pencilfish from again, just in case. Though I still think it's impossible to really tell if they brought it in, it could be they caught it in my tank and were very swiftly affected. That quite a few fish of other species suffered from it as well in the past 2 months makes it even more confusing. It's all a big grey area, a very frustating disease. The pencilfish themselves never seemed stressed to me at all, they were my least shy fish up to the end. If anything they stresed out the other fish by being so bolshy!




This is what I don’t get either, surely this must be in every aquarium shop around or nearly every one. Regardless of whether shops quarantine this will come in through water, may not show itself for months. It Has many symptoms that can be taken as other diseases so will be misdiagnosed.

It’s strange how every tank isn’t riddled with it.
This is what confuses me too. That if what is written about it is true, then presumably something I've done in the tank is causing it to "flare up"? If I did weird maintenance it would make more sense, but I don't think I do anything that isn't standard practice. This is why I go back to the pencils already having it and spreading it to my tank. I am reminded of @confusedman and his terrible luck with sick and dying fish, I wonder if it was the same thing.




Hi Rosie,
I've read your posts, been for a walk & am back at my table, painting, looking at my two tanks but still I don't know what I would do or advise.
I'm about as far removed from a scientist as you can get but even I have wondered why this disease has devastated your tank, especially when shops buy from the same wholesalers, it should be everywhere.
If the remaining fish are looking fairly good then run it as a closed system but be prepared to euthanase everything should it deteriorate. Though this depends on how you are feeling, if you end up dreading what you'll find at lights on then your health becomes more important & a complete restart would probably be best.
Sorry for the ramble but whatever decision you choose to make you'll have plenty of support here. 😻
<3 Thank you. I think that is one of the puzzling things, my friends have bought fish from the same shop and not had any problems. One friend did buy some dicrossus there at the same time as me and one died of popeye (which is a symptom of TB), otherwise, nothing of note. I think you are right about the dread, I have felt that a lot in the past few weeks once I realised something was going on. I think I will wait to see if more die, and if they do then it will be time to stop because the slow dripdripdrip of suffering is just awful.

What do you paint? When I first read this comment yesterday I was doing some drawing for the first time in ages, now I can't be rearranging and trimming and fiddling with the tank every day I've got to do something else for now I suppose!




I agree with John completely. If it was me I would give them a chance and watch them like a hawk. It's not an easy decision but I find generally we know when the time is right if we need to do something.
This is pretty much the plan. It feels on a knife edge at the moment, I do feel like the fish seem more subdued generally now and I wonder if that is ill health or my imagination. Only time will tell! The pygmies seem ok though which is nice, what a fabulous fish they are. One day I will keep a fleet of 100 and it'll be beautiful.



Just caught up with this and want to say thank you for sharing everything in so much detail. There are loads of anecdotal reports out there but this does provide a good source of what to look for.

I've not had to deal with it personally but met a guy that had quite a bad time after he contracted it, so definitely put your own health first.

If it were me I'd stick with things as they are. If all fish succumb, how long can MB live without a host? If it's present in all water, how long does it take for numbers to reduce to a safe level when there's no host and you're running a UV? Just thinking that you should be able to save your scape and avoid stripping everything, while still ensuring the environment is safe to reintroduce fish if MB numbers can be reduced to background levels with normal water changes/UV sterilisation.

If things with your other fish stabilise as horrible as it sounds I guess it makes things a bit trickier as there will be a host so maybe wait for things to stabilise and then wait another 6 months. I'd imagine any ongoing or long term damage should show up in that time.

Just a thought that occured to me, have you checked your waterbutt(s) for any 'foreign' objects? I remember you had a slug die in one. I also use rainwater so not having ago here but wondering if something got into the waterbutt and that was the potential source of MB? Just trying to understand where it stemmed from.

Sorry for the lengthy ramble and asking more questions that I've provided answers/suggestions.

All the best and hope things improve.
Thank you. It feels like all I can really do is describe it, at least it might be useful to someone in the future.

I have heard it's really nasty to catch, I saw one guy who catually almost died from it which was very fun to read... the long pond gloves are coming today to hopefully avoid this stuff. The scary this is that I think I probably have put my hands in while the pencils were suffering and before I realised it was TB, and I have a cat who does like a little bite and scratch when playing. Apparently it can take a while to develop. Either way if I see any sign it'll be straight to the doctor for me ASAP.

That is the question about the MB, from what I can tell it can just live perfectly happy in biofilm without a host. I am hopeful that the UV will really reduce levels so it's safer for me and the fish. I don't know that I will ever feel comfortabel introducing new fish to the tank though. To be honest this tank has not been without problems growing plants for me (it acts like a lowtech even with CO2 basically ffs), if the plants were all growing healthily before I would persevere but this has pushed it over the edge. Ultimately it doesn't seem like a stable environment longterm, it is very hard to reach quite a few areas for cleaning as well. Next time I'll keep that in mind more.

The rainwater is a real question mark, and I have wondered if that was the/a problem. I am not sure if I should continue using the rainwater in this big tank, it would be easier to do bigger and more frequent waterchanges if I just used tap, but also maybe that would stress the fish even more. The vet seems quite convinced that the pencils could have got sicker if they were raised in a higher PH water, and shocked to live in a lower pH in my tank. All of my fish are considered softwater fish though? Seems kinda against what I've learnt about pH and fish, but idk I'm not an expert. The only thing about this is that I do use rainwater in all my tanks, and I haven't had any ricefish or my betta suffer. I do have less chilli rasboras on the other hand, about 1/3 have disappeared in the past 6 months since I got them.
 
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Sounds like a plan! 👍🏻
A slight rescape seems a good idea, if you can make maintenance more simple & less "up to your elbows" in tank water you stand a better chance of keeping on top of things like fish health without worrying about any scratches on your hands or arms. (Love 'em to bits but they can be little devils 😼) Hopefully you won't need to resort to the grim plan b.
I'm still smiling at a "fleet" of pygmy corys, it's a brilliant description!
 
the vet seems quite convinced that the pencils could have got sicker if they were raised in a higher PH water, and shocked to live in a lower pH in my tank.
This is an added bonus of having a quarantine tank - I had a couple of instances where fish who were fine in the quarantine tank for several weeks, then pegged it within a week of going into the destination tank. Having read up on it, there's an added challenge of adapting to the local micro-organisms when fish move to a new tank. I now use quarantine time as an opportunity to gradually add water from the destination tank so that the fish get exposed to small volumes of the destination ecosystem / environment / bacteria, and then gradually build up over time. You can also use that time to gradually switch from LFS water hardness to target water hardness.
 
Are there inoculations you and your dad could look into? I only ask as I had an injury swimming off the back of the boat 3 yrs ago and I ended up in hospital and they were very quick with a variety of jabs against bacteria from the river (I think Thames based injuries are common round here, but mine was quite serious).
 
I'd imagine her dad will have had the BCG jab many moons ago (one time shot), not sure about Rosie, she might have just missed out on the cut off point of having it.

Thing is with this vaccine it was always controversial in regards to how effective it was, and it is widely accepted the vaccine offerd little protection against pulmonary tb.
 
That if what is written about it is true, then presumably something I've done in the tank is causing it to "flare up"?
I doubt it's anything you did. I think it's entirely plausible that the pencils were either exposed before they came to you and just took some time to become ill enough to show it, or they were more susceptible to whatever bacteria strains were already in your tank, leading to an explosion of infectious material that ultimately overwhelmed the immune systems of some of your previous fish that had more natural immunity to begin with.
 
I hadn't noticed any sick fish for a few days, but they have been acting very shy so it has been hard to get a great look. Tonight I saw a pygmy cory with a small white 3D lump on it's head, another new symptom of TB to me, but is on the list of classics. Annoyingly hard to see and catch as they're tiny and hide in the back & are very fast, will have to catch it tomorrow though. I also think my male apisto is acting oddly, but he seems afraid of the female so maybe she is "just" bullying him, she herself is thin I think though, we'll see.

Got some full arm-length pond gloves in, so yesterday I replaced the sand so it looks nicer now and hopefully helps get rid of some nasties living in/on it. The UV Steriliser is on for about 15 hours a day (mostly overnight). I'm going to add in a load of leaves now too as I removed them all a few weeks ago to get rid of biofilm with potential nasties) as I think that's partly why the fish are more shy. I'm going to add another one of those pretty palm flower stalks as well as a whole load of other leaves, give these fish the best home possible for now.

This is an added bonus of having a quarantine tank - I had a couple of instances where fish who were fine in the quarantine tank for several weeks, then pegged it within a week of going into the destination tank. Having read up on it, there's an added challenge of adapting to the local micro-organisms when fish move to a new tank. I now use quarantine time as an opportunity to gradually add water from the destination tank so that the fish get exposed to small volumes of the destination ecosystem / environment / bacteria, and then gradually build up over time. You can also use that time to gradually switch from LFS water hardness to target water hardness.

This is a good idea! It sounds like it would be much less stressful for the fish to get "normal" water after their car journey stress, do a really slow acclimation.

Are there inoculations you and your dad could look into? I only ask as I had an injury swimming off the back of the boat 3 yrs ago and I ended up in hospital and they were very quick with a variety of jabs against bacteria from the river (I think Thames based injuries are common round here, but mine was quite serious).
Cripes I haven't checked, I didn't see anything online about it yet though. Ugh just so grim to have to tbh!!

I doubt it's anything you did. I think it's entirely plausible that the pencils were either exposed before they came to you and just took some time to become ill enough to show it, or they were more susceptible to whatever bacteria strains were already in your tank, leading to an explosion of infectious material that ultimately overwhelmed the immune systems of some of your previous fish that had more natural immunity to begin with.
I think you're right, those make sense. And of course makes it impossible to knew what source brought it in really, it's just unknowable. I guess it's just bad luck.
 
I was talking to my mum this evening about everything that has been going on in the tank and what this disease is, and her view was that for my health and the fish potential suffering it's better just to destroy everything asap, clean it out and replace it with something new like immediately. That it's hard, but better to have a clean break than drag it on, even if it could be useful to know the decline it's at best not enjoyable and actually deeply unpleasant, it feels contaminated as I can catch it and have to wear these bloody hazmat suit gloves to do maintenance. Every day, multiple times a day I look in the tank and check "are any of you dying of something horrible today???" and look for them all, and mostly the answer is no, but like... often the answer is yes and now it's after the pencils it's so depressing, my silly hope was maybe it would stop. And I don't think I'm imagining them being less active and more shy. They called it fish zombie disease and that is so right, not just in all the horrible symptoms that appear, but also in the hopelessness of it. I always hated zombie films for that feeling of complete giving up in the world and failure. In other posts on other forums when people got this in their tanks they have destroyed them, but not really explained their feeling behind why they did it and I thought I wouldn't do the same but idk. It's just turned something really joyful into something tragic.
 
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I don't think it's silly, I would have hoped for some relief from the fish becoming sick after setting up the UV steriliser, euthanasing all the pencils and changing the sand and botanicals but it looks as though the infection is deeply embedded.
It's easier to give someone advice about what they should do than stand in front of your own tank & make the same decision after putting so much time & energy into it's creation. I know I would find it a real struggle.
Describing it as destroying the tank implies violence & you're not breaking it apart you're helping the fish pass without struggling & suffering.
 
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