Dutch 110ltr

[_Maq_]

I do not insist I'm always right. @Hanuman may very well be right, the more so he's obviously got a lot of experience with this Cabomba. @milesjames , you opted to follow his advice, please, go ahead.
I'd just like to explain that phototoxicity can lead to pale tops of plants, i.e. lack of chlorophyll, for which magnesium and iron are essential. This does not necessarily mean that either iron or magnesium are insufficient as such. It's a physiological problem which I've faced with various species and, frankly, not always succeeded to fix. I suspect it's quite a common issue. But I'm not the right guy to explore this problem because I run low-tech and my lighting is always on the moderate side.

 

[John q]

Guys this tank is being dosed with 0.6 ppm of iron a week. I find it amusing that folks constantly suggest fe deficiencies and suggest different cleates to solve the problem.

@milesjames tank looks great mate 👍

 

[GreggZ]

Here's my take. I can only speak to my personal experience. I've kept Cabomba Furcata for many years. I've kept it in heavy macros, light macros, heavy micros, light micros, Fe gluconate only, DTPA only, and EDTA only, and blends of all three. High dKH, low dKH. High dGH, low dGH. One thing that never changes is that it needs a good amount of light to show it's best red.

That being said, adding more Mg would probably help everything.

 

[plantnoobdude]

Guys this tank is being dosed with 0.6 ppm of iron a week. I find it amusing that folks constantly suggest fe deficiencies and suggest different cleates to solve the problem.

the problem is what is available to the plants, not what is dosed.
Here is a picture of plants when I was dosing over 1ppm Fe per week from EDTA. Does this not look iron/manganese deficient?

 

[John q]

Does this not look iron/manganese deficient?

Not sure mate, did adding more fe solve the problem?

 

[plantnoobdude]

Not sure mate, did adding more fe solve the problem?

No, changing the Fe chelate and increasing the Fe:Mn ratio did.

 

[John q]

No, changing the Fe chelate and increasing the Fe:Mn ratio did.

Fair do's add a bir more Mn. @milesjames What's the average ph of the tank.

 

[GreggZ]

the problem is what is available to the plants, not what is dosed.
Here is a picture of plants when I was dosing over 1ppm Fe per week from EDTA. Does this not look iron/manganese deficient?

This can be true. It's based on the pH of the tank. Tanks with lower pH will do fine with either, but higher pH tanks will do better with DTPA.

As to Fe:Mn ratio what do you consider good? The fact is that 99% of the folks do not control their Mn as they use a mix or store bought solution, and most do quite fine.

 

[plantnoobdude]

This can be true. It's based on the pH of the tank. Tanks with lower pH will do fine with either, but higher pH tanks will do better with DTPA.

My tank had Low pH and struggled with edta. So either EDTA did not work well and wasn’t available to plants, or the ratios came into play.

As to Fe:Mn ratio what do you consider good

I think
4:1 to 1:1 is a good start, not to say you can’t have good results Outside this however.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Guys this tank is being dosed with 0.6 ppm of iron a week. I find it amusing that folks constantly suggest fe deficiencies and suggest different cleates to solve the problem.

@milesjames tank looks great mate 👍

The others are right, iron (Fe) is different from most of the other nutrients, <"because it isn't mobile within the plant">.

I'd you get <"chlorosis in the new leaves">, it is very likely to be iron (<"and/or manganese (Mn)">) deficiency.

The other issue is that iron forms a lot <"of insoluble compounds"> in <"alkaline, oxidising conditions"> so the total amount of iron added is irrelevant if none of that iron is in a plant available form. As the others have said "Seachem Flourish" is <"gluconate based and a weak chelator">.

I think of it like turning the tap on and waiting for the sink to fill, it doesn't matter how much, or how quickly, water flows in, if the plug isn't in place the sink never fills up. Also if that plug isn't the right size the water still leaks away. An pH appropriate chelator is just the "right sized plug".

Cheers Darrel

 

[Hanuman]

I do not insist I'm always right.

Nor do I. I just gave my opinion based on what I see and my experience. I could well be wrong.

I believe the same, looking closely at photos it appears it is not only the cabomba, but the limnophila, rotala appear to be having issues with iron deficiency.
0.6ppm Iron is very excessive, I agree. But that may actually not be available to the plants.

To be honest I don't see any deficiency in the plants in that tank. What I see are plants adapting and struggling some, which is normal for plants arriving in a new environment. But to call that iron deficiency seems extreme to me.

The others are right, iron (Fe) is different from most of the other nutrients, <"because it isn't mobile within the plant">.

I'd you get <"chlorosis in the new leaves">, it is very likely to be iron (<"and/or manganese (Mn)">) deficiency.

The other issue is that iron forms a lot <"of insoluble compounds"> in <"alkaline, oxidising conditions"> so the total amount of iron added is irrelevant if none of that iron is in a plant available form. As the others have said "Seachem Flourish" is <"gluconate based and a weak chelator">.

I think of it like turning the tap on and waiting for the sink to fill, it doesn't matter how much, or how quickly, water flows in, if the plug isn't in place the sink never fills up. Also if that plug isn't the right size the water still leaks away. An pH appropriate chelator is just the "right sized plug".

Not to dismiss any of the above, but I find it rather intriguing how fert deficiencies are the first diagnosis given in many threads specially when they are notoriously difficult to diagnose. And here is why I say this:
1. the setup is fresh, with plants just having being planted less than a month ago.
2. the soil is new filled to the brim with nutrients.
3. tank seems to be injected with CO2 which I would assume drops PH in the 5-6PH range making anything in there pretty much available to the plants.

If people are referring to the whitish tops on all of the plants we see, that seems to be the highlights created by the light above. Also the pictures are pretty washed out.

If it was my tank, I would let it be, make sure you Co2 is appropriate in relation to your light and I wouldn't touch your iron dosing at this stage. 0.6ppm is far more than enough, and it being available is not the issue here IMO. Even if only 20% of that is available to the plant, it would still be enough.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Not to dismiss any of the above, but I find it rather intriguing how fert deficiencies are the first diagnosis given in many threads specially when they are notoriously difficult to diagnose.

Agreed, I think attempting to diagnose nutrient deficiencies is a <"mug's game">. I'm not a <"plant physiologist"> and I usually a steer well away from posting on threads which look too closely at <"Mulder's chart"> or <"Marshner's numbers">, I just don't have enough knowledge to make any informed comment.

I've always advocated adding an <"all in one fertiliser if nutrient deficiencies are suspected">. However, I think there are exceptions to <"difficult to diagnose">:

• When people don't add any fertilser and their <"plants are small and pale">, and have shed all their older leaves.
• When the <"older leaves have net vein chlorosis">.
• When the <"new leaves are chlorotic">.

If people are referring to the whitish tops on all of the plants we see, that seems to be the highlights created by the light above. Also the pictures are pretty washed out.

I wasn't sure, so that was why <"I asked the original question">.

cheers Darrel

 

[John q]

Fe gluconate isn't available for long but it's available (more than chelated fe). The plants will get what they need in a very short space of time. The plants in question don't need a constant drip feed of iron, folks that think they do.... fail 😁

 

[_Maq_]

Fe gluconate isn't available for long but it's available (more than chelated fe).

I think that gluconate is considered special because it forms complex with divalent iron ion. I wonder if this is of any positive value, I doubt it.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Fe gluconate isn't available for long but it's available (more than chelated fe). The plants will get what they need in a very short space of time. The plants in question don't need a constant drip feed of iron, folks that think they do.... fail

This is true <"for most elements">, but it isn't <"true for iron (Fe)">, plants actually need a constant drip feed.

<"Plants can't stock-pile it"> and then move it around, because it isn' t mobile within the plant, and photosynthetic tissue formed when iron isn't available <"will always be chlorotic">. The non-mobility of iron is why I've moved to using a <"hybrid Duckweed index">, where I add iron on a regular basis.

This is @Zeus. 's "Future of Aquascaping" picture, where the iron has been turned off and on.

Cheers Darrel

 

[milesjames]

So as most of us fear when leaving a tank for too long in the hands of friends and family. I have returned to an aquarium of many new challenges!!!

It would appear my parents have done their best to maintain the tank but clearly weekly water changes, feeding appropriately, adding ferts and turning on my CO2 on is not in thier remit!!!

I have returned to a snail infestation, 2 dead fish, and plants that look let they are crying for feeding.

I love how when I text my dad to check up as they were house sitting stated the tank is doing great no issues exactly how you left it!!!

Oh well I guess it is my own fault for leaving them in charge of such a young tank.

Time to roll up the sleeves and start the process of righting the wrongs!!

 

[milesjames]

I believe this is the heart of your problem. Flourish iron I believe is Fe gluconate. Gluconate is not available for long, I would suggest adding 0.1ppm Fe dtpa in addition to your current dosing while cutting back iron. This dose sHould be more than sufficient in terms of iron.
You may have better results with DTPA plus flourish+flourish iron or even try using flourish trace. Your plants, in terms of growth form are doing very well, so you are doing well onThat part.

Far as colouration goes, you may want to invest in light some heavier red blue spectrum as well. You may even consider adding a led strip of grow lights in combination with your current lights.

0.6ppm is plenty, which tells me you have availability issues, whether that be precipitation or something else, in my tank I’ve never needed to go over 0.1ppm Fe. To make sure you have good uptake also make sure you maintain decent concentrations of magnesium and manganese since these can contribute the to chlorosis.

Thanks plantnoob I'll try making an adjustment and go daily with FE, add additional magnesium and look into sorting some DTPA. 😊

 

[milesjames]

OMG you can't right this stuff!!!

So I was thinking seems strange how can my tank have a huge snail infestation, dead fish and my ottos be so fat!!

Seemed like strange issues and my ottos although normally are chunking thier bellies appear like they have had a feast!! To be having this after being away for just a week very odd...

Then I turn on the light just now by hand rather than the app to find...

My parents have been feeding the tank with shrimp and snail food not the flake in the cupboard.... The pellets are all over the top and if that's what they spilt god knows how much they put in!!!

 

[_Maq_]

I'll try making an adjustment and go daily with FE, add additional magnesium

I regret your option.
You know, you've incidentally provoked an interesting discussion, where two to three opinions stand against each other:
(1) Cabombas need more light.
(2a) Cabombas suffer from phototoxicity (too much light) and cannot form chlorophyll in the canopy.
(2b) Cabombas would benefit from more/better-chelated iron plus magnesium.
I understand very well that you simply want to remedy your problem. Yet I would love if you turn a bit of a researcher and stick to one option or another. If I'm not mistaken, a while ago you opted for @Hanuman 's suggestion - option (1). Would you pleeease give it a try? I'd really love to know exactly the reason of your chlorosis.

 

[milesjames]

I regret your option.
You know, you've incidentally provoked an interesting discussion, where two to three opinions stand against each other:
(1) Cabombas need more light.
(2a) Cabombas suffer from phototoxicity (too much light) and cannot form chlorophyll in the canopy.
(2b) Cabombas would benefit from more/better-chelated iron plus magnesium.
I understand very well that you simply want to remedy your problem. Yet I would love if you turn a bit of a researcher and stick to one option or another. If I'm not mistaken, a while ago you opted for @Hanuman 's suggestion - option (1). Would you pleeease give it a try? I'd really love to know exactly the reason of your chlorosis.

Hi @_Maq_ ,

First of all cheers for the post and yes there is alot for me to take on from many sides on the issue.

In fact you could say I'm overly wealthy in advice with some tricky decisions to wieght up.

For now changing things drastically is going to be a problem, over all tank health vs colouration of cabomba is a no brainer.

So lighting is going to continue to move up gradually. In that time I'm going to start to think about fertiliser options and observe how light impacts growth over time until full power.

So I have time to consider the advice given and can acknowledge all the kind advice offered over that time.

You will be kept upto date with details of what's decided and altered over time.

For now I've just woken from a short sleep after flying all day yesterday to a tank that needs TLC. Please be patient whilst I gather my thoughts on the matter and appreciate I will acknowledge all advice also I will give it consideration over time.