260 L planted tank, minimum maintenance

[JohnCooke]

Agree with your point about the silica sand. It's a flexible substrate; can be made more fertile with root tabs, or, obviously, can be made more parsimonious by withholding them.

Outzen - you've been very thoughtful in your planning and your fish possibilities are very attractive. I would suggest a note of caution about 3 of your possibilities. The Hillstream loaches might not suit what will not be a fast-flow river-type tank. In addition, my own [admittedly ancient] experience with Serpae tetras has not been good. Yes, lots of them together may focus their natural boisterousness on themselves, but they may nevertheless become a nuisance. The other tetras you're interested in may be a better bet. Lastly, [and then I'll stop being a wet blanket!] the sharks can sometimes become more aggressive than you'd like. As I say, this is my own experience; others here may have serpaes and sharks with sheep-like temperaments!

 

[Tim Harrison]

I will probably have to supply with ferts and maybe other stuff (ammonia) in the startup fase,

I’m guessing you’re planning to use the ammonia for fishless cycling. It’s a bad idea and totally unnecessary in a planted tank for various reasons. And especially a soil substrate tank. There will be enough given off by the soil to cycle several tanks. See Darrel’s comments above.

Things have really moved on, although you wouldn't always know this from forums etc. Have a look at <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements"> and <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">.

 

[Outzen]

Tank arrived as planned the 28 Aug ...


Started aqua scaping 4/9 - First planning:

Will build with stones at right side of the tank, also to sort of hide the internal Juwel filter. Starting up with a basic layor of black grabble. Using pvc to keep it in place. Height: 1 inch. Putting sand around.


Peparing for a new layor with pvc. Filling up with black gravel and placing rocks around.


More rocks on the top.

Applying Pond soil to the left part of the tank, surrounded by pvc (1 inch high). The soil will be sloping downwards from the back to the front from abt. 2 inches to 1/2 inch (when reaching the pvc line)


Applying sand to the other side of the pvc. Rinsing the soil with a little bit of water to make it slightly more muddy, then massaging the soil with a plastic spon to get rid of any air pockets. Letting it settle for an hour.

Capping with black sand. Trying to make sure there is at least double as much sand compared to the pond soil.

Now here comes the roots. Im having some diffeculties with deciding how to place them, but end up with something like this.
Filling up with water:



Began the aquascaping monday - now its wedensday, so this took me 3 days (couldnt devote my time entirely to the aquarium), and have now started the "dark period". Aquarium is covered so no light can get in. Started the filter and the heater. Have not done anything else at this stage, but plan to add some bacterie - one suggested to also put some fish food in the tank from time to time to help the bacteria flora ... considering . Do not plan for any water changes. Will do some test later today or tomorrow. Then a new test after a week.

 

[Outzen]

Did a few tests - tank has been running for almost 24 hrs;
Strip tests "PRO JBL Aquatest" Easy 7 in 1

• No3 - 0
• No2 - 0
• GH - >21 >375
• KH - 20 - 357
• PH - 8,4 - 9.0
• CI2 - 0

GH/KH/PH looking scaringly high ... made me make a strip test of the tap water. Same result although slightly less

• No3 - 0
• No2 - 0
• GH - >21 >375
• KH - 15 - 258
• PH - 8.0 - 8.4
• CI2 - 0.8

Also bought No2 Pro JBL Aquatest (nitrit) and NH4 Pro JBL Aquatest (Ammonia) drop tests, and they showed 0

Have ordered GH, KH and PH drop test kits - plan not to touch the tank before next wedensday when it has been running for 7 days.

Added Juwel BioBoost to the bottom of the filter medias ( a bag with 3 pills which came with the tank).
Also added (distributed) bacterie in the tank - HappyStart - a Product from "Evolution" (Sweedish).

 

[_Maq_]

Purely incidentally, I've recalled a Czech proverb which can be translated roughly like this: There's no help to those who do not take an advice.
Is there any similar saying in English? Just curious...

 

[John q]

Is there any similar saying in English?

Yes there are a few with similar meanings , Inc.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink”

"You can't help those that won't help themselves"

Still, that shouldn't stop us offering up advice and trying to steer folks back on the right path, that's assuming they are lost in the first place.

 

[foxfish]

It is great to see you being so enthusiastic, you are obviously enjoying your new adventure, just dont rely on those test kits being accurate!
There are hundreds of post relating to test kits but you will be hard pressed to find many promoting their use!
As there are no planted tank police, you can of course spend your money on any aspect you like but, our advice would be plants rather than test kits.
Most importantly is to get enjoyment from the hobby but disappointment can be very disheartening and you may become disappointed if you rely on test kits.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink

I use that <"one a lot">. I like the <"Seasoned Tank Time"> concept, because it is simple and it works.

It is great to see you being so enthusiastic, you are obviously enjoying your new adventure, just dont rely on those test kits being accurate!

That would be my point as well. Take all the results with a <"pinch of salt">. If there was a simple and accurate <"plug and play"> test for nitrate (NO3-)? I'd recommend it.

You could get accurate results for the <"water chemistry of your tank">, but you would need to spend a lot of time and money and send <"your samples to analytical lab."> that <"specialises in water testing">. All those parameters might be within an acceptable range, but your tank may still be unsuitable for fish.

I take a <"risk management"> approach to fish-keeping and that is why I've concentrated on dissolved oxygen (again <"difficult to quantify">), because low oxygen ("and / or high CO2") is the greatest risk to fish health.

After oxygen / CO2 we are probably looking at ammonia (NH3) as the next greatest risk, and the same applies again, I'm not going to try and measure it, I'm going to use techniques that use <"negative feedback loops"> to reduce the risk.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

you may become disappointed if you rely on test kits.

Very true, but now @Outzen still knows something with reasonable reliability - that his water is a liquid rock. Now, there's a major question what he wants to do with this adversity. I don't deny that many plants can be kept in such water, but there's no doubt it's a disadvantage.

because low oxygen ("and / or high CO2") is the greatest risk to fish health.

In stressing the importance of oxygen, Darrel & me form a combined task force on UKAPS and the rest of the world.
I'd just like to add that low oxygen (or high oxygen demand) is the greatest risk to plant health, too.

 

[Outzen]

Purely incidentally, I've recalled a Czech proverb which can be translated roughly like this: There's no help to those who do not take an advice.
Is there any similar saying in English? Just curious...

Im not sure what you are referrering to ... but am very happy for the responses I get, even though I should eventually choose not to follow them
Is it because I added bioboost/Bacteria? ... Have received several completely different advices on this, also one advice to add fishfood to the tank during the dark start period, to help the bacteria grow.

I’m guessing you’re planning to use the ammonia for fishless cycling. It’s a bad idea and totally unnecessary in a planted tank for various reasons. And especially a soil substrate tank. There will be enough given off by the soil to cycle several tanks. See Darrel’s comments above.

But think I will follow Tims advice not to add fishfood to decompose during the dark start period.

Abouth the bacteria - is that also a bad idea - and if yes - Why?

 

[_Maq_]

Abouth the bacteria - is that also a bad idea - and if yes - Why?

I'd put the question in reverse sense: Is it good idea, and if yes, why?
In general, I think we don't have products which reliably help anything particular. Most commercial blends contain heterotrophic bacteria and, as such, they delay the outset of nitrification (because heterotrophic bacteria outcompete nitrifying microbes). Some commercial products do contain nitrifying bacteria, but there are two caveats to that: firstly, nitrification runs without them anyway, secondly, there are many species of nitrifying microbes and only by chance you buy those which exactly fit into the conditions of your tank.
Generally, unless you use carefully rinsed silica sand, the substrate contains more microbes than you need. And they proliferate pretty quickly. On the other hand, you can never "inherit" nor "inoculate" the optimal microbial community for your tank. It simply takes time until it develops. The substrate develops, too.

Sometimes, when experiencing algae outburst, or similar calamity, bacterial inoculation can help. In theory, or in professional conditions. We would have to know exactly which bacteria can help suppressing algae in given situation. Which we don't. So it's a blind shot. I have tried it. I've observed no manifest positive results; on the contrary, in some cases, bacterial bloom followed.
And that is, in short, my opinion on all bacterial inoculations: In theory, they may be beneficial in some circumstances. But in our hobby reality, one cannot tell in advance, so it's rather risky. They may do more harm than good.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Is it because I added bioboost/Bacteria? ... Have received several completely different advices on this,.....

What @_Maq_ says. It probably doesn't make any difference. It is very unlikely that it will contain the nitrifying microbes that occur in planted tanks. In terms of the advice offered have a look at:

• <"The nitrifying microbes in aquariums and cycling">
• <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">
• <"Bacteria in a bottle ?"> and
• <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">

But think I will follow Tims advice not to add fishfood to decompose during the dark start period.

You just need to reduce the amount of ammonia (NH3) in the tank, adding to it isn't going to help and may prolong the time before the tank becomes "fish safe"

Abouth the bacteria - is that also a bad idea - and if yes - Why?

It is just the environment within the bioreactor where the supplement was produced, it is very unlikely to be <"produced with suitable ammonia loading"> to replicate conditions in our tanks.

All the work I've read would strongly suggest that even small increases in ammonia loading drastically effect the microbial community. The initial reference would be Bartelme et al. (2017) <"Freshwater Recirculating Aquaculture System Operations Drive Biofilter Bacterial Community Shifts around a Stable Nitrifying Consortium of Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea and Comammox Nitrospira"> Front Microbiol. 2017; 8: 101. This had a top level of about 14 µM NH3

Cheers Darrel

 

[hwscot]

I take a <"risk management"> approach to fish-keeping and that is why I've concentrated on dissolved oxygen (again <"difficult to quantify">), because low oxygen ("and / or high CO2") is the greatest risk to fish health.

On the principle that the only dumb question is an unasked question ..
I'd be interested to know what we can do to maximise dissolved oxygen, beyond lots of healthy / fast plant growth and good surface movement.
I've no intention of going down the route of trying to measure it, but given my stock tank did once briefly trigger classic 'fish gasping at surface' behaviour after being apparently fine for a year or so .. (incidentally, resolved by sticking a couple of Aquael mini Pats in with venturi) .. I'd be keen to know if there are other (non teccy) things we can do to optimise.
(stock tank, btw, is fine, and currently working very effectively as a Suesswassertang propagator. I'm still a bit puzzled as to what caused the oxygen crisis).

 

[Tim Harrison]

Did a few tests - tank has been running for almost 24 hrs;
Strip tests "PRO JBL Aquatest" Easy 7 in 1

• No3 - 0
• No2 - 0
• GH - >21 >375
• KH - 20 - 357
• PH - 8,4 - 9.0
• CI2 - 0

GH/KH/PH looking scaringly high ... made me make a strip test of the tap water. Same result although slightly less

• No3 - 0
• No2 - 0
• GH - >21 >375
• KH - 15 - 258
• PH - 8.0 - 8.4
• CI2 - 0.8

Also bought No2 Pro JBL Aquatest (nitrit) and NH4 Pro JBL Aquatest (Ammonia) drop tests, and they showed 0

Have ordered GH, KH and PH drop test kits - plan not to touch the tank before next wedensday when it has been running for 7 days.

Usually, there is really no need to test extensively nor regularly. For one thing, hobby grade tests are not particularly accurate; there are confounding factors. However, planted tanks are often very robust and stable. The prime indicators of health are the plants and critters. Observation is key, it's a knack that comes with time and experience.

 

[Outzen]

Agree with your point about the silica sand. It's a flexible substrate; can be made more fertile with root tabs, or, obviously, can be made more parsimonious by withholding them.

Outzen - you've been very thoughtful in your planning and your fish possibilities are very attractive. I would suggest a note of caution about 3 of your possibilities. The Hillstream loaches might not suit what will not be a fast-flow river-type tank. In addition, my own [admittedly ancient] experience with Serpae tetras has not been good. Yes, lots of them together may focus their natural boisterousness on themselves, but they may nevertheless become a nuisance. The other tetras you're interested in may be a better bet. Lastly, [and then I'll stop being a wet blanket!] the sharks can sometimes become more aggressive than you'd like. As I say, this is my own experience; others here may have serpaes and sharks with sheep-like temperaments!

Thks ... will probably choose the phantom tetra over the red serpae in light of yr comments, the sharks like the rams are one my “must have” list. . Havent kept Hillstream loaches before, so not a big deal if they are not suitable for my setup - think there is enough “cleaners” on my list, so dont have to look for replacements. Anyway, the list is still “preliminary”, some of the species its probably not available at the local dealers here in DK cph area …

 

[Outzen]

Usually, there is really no need to test extensively nor regularly. For one thing, hobby grade tests are not particularly accurate; there are confounding factors. However, planted tanks are often very robust and stable. The prime indicators of health are the plants and critters. Observation is key, it's a knack that comes with time and experience.

Yes, roger that … Im testing because I want to know what im working with in terms of water quality, and on this stage I have no intention of trying to go down the RO road, even though my tap water is an “disadvantage” ( Maq )
That said, I would like to attempt lowering the ph without using chemicals, ie roots, peat moss, ...?
But guess the way forward for me is to plant heavily when I finish my dark start period, ie not just buy a few plants to see how they cope.

 

[Outzen]

On the principle that the only dumb question is an unasked question ..
I'd be interested to know what we can do to maximise dissolved oxygen, beyond lots of healthy / fast plant growth and good surface movement.
I've no intention of going down the route of trying to measure it, but given my stock tank did once briefly trigger classic 'fish gasping at surface' behaviour after being apparently fine for a year or so .. (incidentally, resolved by sticking a couple of Aquael mini Pats in with venturi) .. I'd be keen to know if there are other (non teccy) things we can do to optimise.
(stock tank, btw, is fine, and currently working very effectively as a Suesswassertang propagator. I'm still a bit puzzled as to what caused the oxygen crisis).

This is completely now to me - "maximise dissolved oxygen" - will try to look into that
Im currently "only" running the standard Juwel filter that came with the tank - Is that enough to get a good circulation in the tank? I could ofcause make sure that the outlet tube will be directed at the surface to get good surface movement, but will that provide enought movement in the remaining water column?

 

[Tim Harrison]

Im currently "only" running the standard Juwel filter that came with the tank - Is that enough to get a good circulation in the tank?

I think so. I set up a JUWEL 180 for my son last Christmas. He has a busy life so we decided to just go with plug and play. It’s working out fine. And that’s relatively high energy, green drop checker rather than lime green.

 

[fredi]

Yes, roger that … Im testing because I want to know what im working with in terms of water quality, and on this stage I have no intention of trying to go down the RO road, even though my tap water is an “disadvantage” ( Maq )
That said, I would like to attempt lowering the ph without using chemicals, ie roots, peat moss, ...?
But guess the way forward for me is to plant heavily when I finish my dark start period, ie not just buy a few plants to see how they cope.

For what it’s worth, I like to test (it makes me happy 😂), i plot a graph with daily results, it’s easy to see trends, whilst the values given may not be spot on, they should be (reasonably) consistently inaccurate, i use API test kits, years ago (many), i had (and probably still have), a tetra colourimetric set, with lots of coloured wheels, it was very easy to read, but some results puzzled me, NO3 results were random (I was keeping Tropheus, ignore anyone who tells you that NO3 levels don’t matter to fish) I tried a few other NO3 kits and settled on API, as the tetra reagents ran out I switched to API (if I get the odd “outlier”, i then retest, a graph is very good at showing this). As has been mentioned by others previously, test strips, are “not very good”, imho best place for them is the bin

 

[Tim Harrison]

For what it’s worth, I like to test (it makes me happy 😂),

Absolutely, although not strictly necessary, for some it’s part of the hobby. I must admit I enjoyed using multiple test kits for a while. Now I just do ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at the beginning of setup to help gauge when the tank is ready to introduce fish and other critters.