A reflection - putting it all into one scape

[plantnoobdude]

We often say that light drives co2 ... and that is entirely true ... but what if something chokes the co2 demand even further ... leidbig's law dictates that anyways ... and light is a nutrient in leidbig ... so choke the demand with ferts in the column (since the leaf can't mitigate NO3 and PO4 in their leaves like it can potassium - to some extent) -- but give the EI in the substrate with roots (since they are more powerful than leaves and can choose more freely - with the assistance of rhizosphere).

N/P lean tanks hardly have co2 issues. Have you ever seen an Ada system tank with a ph probe? Or a complex co2 reactor? No, they use one or maybe two diffusers for 4 foot tanks. Leaner column is easier for co2. I think for most folk, I would probably recommend something similar to APT , column levels.

 

[JoshP12]

N/P lean tanks hardly have co2 issues. Have you ever seen an Ada system tank with a ph probe? Or a complex co2 reactor? No, they use one or maybe two diffusers for 4 foot tanks. Leaner column is easier for co2. I think for most folk, I would probably recommend something similar to APT , column levels.

Help answer this question:
Why not run ADA system or rich substrate, lean column, proper co2 with your light at 30%. EDIT: When we know that the light compensation point is pretty low. So why should we not EI the light?

I get that relative to my 4 lights, my system in the past was at "30%" of now ... but why reduce our single light to 50% after spending a fortune on it. It's not clear to me. When choking nutrients seems to have a larger benefit to the system VS choking light. I just can't put my finger on why light is more beneficial to have than nutrients -- in abundance.

 

[John q]

ii) I would tell them, buy a tank, buy some aquasoil, dose a fraction in the column, and run your lights at 100%

That's all well and good mate, but... that newbie has no concept of getting consistent C02 around the tank, isn't up to speed with meticulous tank maintenance, and has a tank full of anubias and Cryptocoryne. Lol.
Surely you can't think blasting the tank with light is a one size fits all affair that will always work?

Just trying to get your grey cells working Josh 😉

 

[plantnoobdude]

Why not run ADA system or rich substrate, lean column, proper co2 with your light at 30%. EDIT: When we know that the light compensation point is pretty low. So why should we not EI the light?

Everything’s slower…. What’s the point🤣

Lean column…. Less co2 demand great forms… brilliant colour, what more do could you ask for.

 

[JoshP12]

That's all well and good mate, but... that newbie has no concept of getting consistent C02 around the tank, isn't up to speed with meticulous tank maintenance, and has a tank full of anubias and Cryptocoryne.

They’ll fail with Low light and rich column dosing too then! Through the process, they will get co2 right.

Here’s a question: is it easier to get co2 right under lean column and high light OR rich column and low light? Or lean column and low light.

Everything’s slower…. What’s the point🤣

Lean column…. Less co2 demand great forms… brilliant colour, what more do could you ask for.

Watch think to the question above?

Lol.
Surely you can't think blasting the tank with light is a one size fits all affair that will always work?

I don’t know. I can’t think of a time I wouldn’t use high light and just mitigate light for a tank full of crypts (just as an aside crypts look gorgeous under high light as does Anubias and buce etc) or to make shadows by adding floating plants. Unless I don’t want floating plants and I want a gloomy allure then I think that’s different.

I’m just struggling John!!

Just trying to get your grey cells working Josh 😉

I like it.

 

[John q]

They’ll fail with Low light and rich column dosing too then! Through the process, they will get co2 right.

Not necessarily, there's lots of folks go heavy on the ferts in low light tanks and seem to manage, obviously maintaining a moped takes less work than a ferrari 😉

Here’s a question: is it easier to get co2 right under lean column and high light OR rich column and low light? Or lean column and low light

My own personal experience.

Lean dosing and high light, I've no idea, I don't own a photo cannon.

Rich column and low light, fairly easy to grow plants in the easy category, minimal algae, with or without co2.

Lean column low light, some plants struggled, others faired ok. Various forms of algae. Was any of this co2 related?

My personal fav, medium light, halfway house between ei and lean. Harder to get co2 right because the plants grow so quickly and block the bloody flow.

So to answer the question, low light and rich column.

 

[JoshP12]

Not necessarily, there's lots of folks go heavy on the ferts in low light tanks and seem to manage, obviously maintaining a moped takes less work than a ferrari 😉

Only because of the prevalence of advice? Or because high light low fert didn’t work?

On maintenance:
I dunno because if you choke growth rates - it doesn’t matter how you do it … to use @Wookii car analogy - say you hit the gas by cranking light, but you throw on the parking break … it can only go so fast. Now take off a few wheels — it’s like choking N and P but still pedal to the metal. And then if the plant adapts by changing color, it’s like switching to a lower octane fuel 🤣 without anyone knowing … uh oh … incomplete combustion, carbon deposits … the machine is slowing down!

My own personal experience.

Lean dosing and high light, I've no idea, I don't own a photo cannon.

Gotta get one!

Rich column and low light, fairly easy to grow plants in the easy category, minimal algae, with or without co2.

Lean column low light, some plants struggled, others faired ok. Various forms of algae. Was any of this co2 related?

This is a really cool observation.

My personal fav, medium light, halfway house between ei and lean. Harder to get co2 right because the plants grow so quickly and block the bloody flow.

So to answer the question, low light and rich column.

Very fair. Wonder if it’s because you have softer water that your half ei works better?

It just seems to make sense to EI the ferts in soil. And EI the light. And EI the co2. Finished.

 

[plantnoobdude]

it easier to get co2 right under lean column and high light OR rich column and low light? Or lean column and low light.

The same id say. One way or another the growth is bottle necked. The co2 only needs to meet growth demands. Obviously depends on how much is Low light (not 400 par josh🤣), how much is lean dosing…. High dosing…

 

[Wookii]

Only because of the prevalence of advice? Or because high light low fert didn’t work?

Because for the beginner high light, low ferts is barely ever going to work and keep them algae free unless they either fluke it, or accurately follow a prescriptive system (read ADA).

Low light and high-'er' ferts (doesn't necessarily need to be EI, just sufficient excess to guarantee no deficiencies, and in a prescriptive regime that a new starter isn't going to get confused over), will get them to an algae free tank much quicker.

The tank you're running here is a really interesting experiment, and is obviously employing some extremes, but you are experienced enough to keep at it knowing (hoping maybe lol) that it'll come out the other side. Do you think a new aquarist would be able to do that when their tank hits the pea soup stage yours did? A couple of weeks of that, and they'll have torn it down, and the tank will be on eBay.

That's why I don't think high light is ever a good starting point for a new starter to the hobby, there is insufficient manoeuvring room for the inevitable errors they will end up making through lack of experience.

On maintenance:
I dunno because if you choke growth rates - it doesn’t matter how you do it … to use @Wookii car analogy - say you hit the gas by cranking light, but you throw on the parking break … it can only go so fast. Now take off a few wheels — it’s like choking N and P but still pedal to the metal. And then if the plant adapts by changing color, it’s like switching to a lower octane fuel 🤣 without anyone knowing … uh oh … incomplete combustion, carbon deposits … the machine is slowing down!

Man you've wrecked my car analogy 🤣

I get what you are trying to say, but I think you can avoid the painful pea soup process you've gone through by using lower light to get the tank to maturity, and then slowing ramping the light to the high point you want it. That would have gotten you there with considerably less algae, but would still eventually deliver the 'low octane' plant form you are after as the plants adapt to the gradually ramping light levels.

 

[JoshP12]

The same id say. One way or another the growth is bottle necked. The co2 only needs to meet growth demands. Obviously depends on how much is Low light (not 400 par josh🤣), how much is lean dosing…. High dosing…

I think I have this reputation for liking light or something … 🤣.

Because for the beginner high light, low ferts is barely ever going to work and keep them algae free unless they either fluke it, or accurately follow a prescriptive system (read ADA).

You know. I think you’re right. And the reason is because if they don’t purge the system or get co2 right, the substrate inadvertently doses EI into the column and in conjunction with high light, ei in the column, and potentially poor co2 application, the system breaks.

Low light and high-'er' ferts (doesn't necessarily need to be EI, just sufficient excess to guarantee no deficiencies, and in a prescriptive regime that a new starter isn't going to get confused over), will get them to an algae free tank much quicker.

Can the higher ferts just be daily dose on a bottle? I suppose we then go back to the “show it works” argument from above. Fair.

The tank you're running here is a really interesting experiment, and is obviously employing some extremes, but you are experienced enough to keep at it knowing (hoping maybe lol) that it'll come out the other side. Do you think a new aquarist would be able to do that when their tank hits the pea soup stage yours did? A couple of weeks of that, and they'll have torn it down, and the tank will be on eBay.

Agreed. Unless someone was there coaching them through. Goes for anything though, really.

That's why I don't think high light is ever a good starting point for a new starter to the hobby, there is insufficient manoeuvring room for the inevitable errors they will end up making through lack of experience.

Again, fair.

Why not inert with just a bit of ferts - I guess the same argument to show it.

Man you've wrecked my car analogy 🤣

I didn’t give it NOx? Lol

I get what you are trying to say, but I think you can avoid the painful pea soup process you've gone through by using lower light to get the tank to maturity, and then slowing ramping the light to the high point you want it. That would have gotten you there with considerably less algae, but would still eventually deliver the 'low octane' plant form you are after as the plants adapt to the gradually ramping light levels.

And I think the pea soup comes from EI dosed column and high light from poorly managed substrate in early days (even with my daily’s my substrate was too powerful lol) - and that’s why ADA has carbons etc and the prescribed system. (Remember I used nothing in filter on purpose)

High octane Wooki! Rocket fuel (without wheels) forms! 🤣🤣🤣. Hehe.

But the plants have always been a healthy.

So what’s the cause of algae?

Ps I think we need a brigade of noobies to try it out for us 😂. But it is likely all the failed threads of people Who didn’t follow ada system. But how often do first time ada users make it work?

 

[JoshP12]

So:

Low light - not really related to algae
High co2 - not really related to algae

High light - related (if in conjunction with another factor)

Low co2 - related (if you run blue dc and everything is fine, turn co2 down further and algae will come)

High ferts in column - related (there is excess so something should be able to take advantage of if the system is running strong enough - case and point my tank - needs to be in conjunction with another factor)

Low ferts in column and low substrate - related (since plant can’t grow properly, it dies, nutrient soup from dead plant - algae)


I think caveat - higher and lower are relative to an imaginary “demands met number for the nutrient”



Can really start to see why EI isn’t a bad idea.

Low ferts is bad.

High ferts is only bad with low co2 or high lights

High light is only bad with high ferts or low co2.

Low co2 is always bad.

High ferts (in column) low light proper co2

Low ferts (in column) high light proper co2

Otherwise algae 😂.

There is always enough ferts somewhere to avoid low fert situation and unhealthy plants.

AHA! Low ferts in water, high ferts substrate, high light, mature system is easier to manage?


Getting a noobie to mature system seems to be the sticking point and it’s the off gas from rich substrate that causes the issues since it mimick the Ferrari

 

[Wookii]

Can the higher ferts just be daily dose on a bottle? I suppose we then go back to the “show it works” argument from above. Fair.

Yeah sure, maybe not the bottle dose, as most are a bit lean (@dw1305's worlds most expensive water), but a multiple of it. Most beginners already have a bottle in hand, so if they did well and got something that contains all macros and micros - like TBC Complete or APT, then we can just advise them to dose a bit more than is on the bottle.

So what’s the cause of algae?

I don't think we'll ever know that unfortunately, and its exasperated by the fact that multiple different combinations of factors can contribute.

To me, in broad brush terms, algae is caused by instability in the 'system'. That instability in the system can be instigated by a range of factors that need to change rapidly to cause the instability. Rapid changes in CO2, changes in light, changes in ferts, changes in plant mass (large trimming session), changes in accumulated organics, changes in dissolved oxygen etc etc. A mature tank with healthy plant growth can better handle fluctuations in those factors better than a newly set up tank can, as there is a larger buffer.

I think often one of the biggest things negatively affecting tank stability is the aquarist. New tanks often seem to take 3-4 months to achieve stability - and sure, a large chunk of that is biological maturation - but often I think that is also because it takes a couple of months before the aquarist grows tired is messing about tweaking the inputs to the tank (I'm as guilty of that as the next person), and sits back a lets things cruise, then stability gets chance to set in, and the tank improves - sometimes the best policy once everything is initially set up, is just to sit on our hands!

 

[JoshP12]

I don't think we'll ever know that unfortunately, and its exasperated by the fact that multiple different combinations of factors can contribute.

I think we already have the building blocks. Not us. I mean the scientific body. We just need major meta analysis in conjunction with learning machine(s) that we can monitor and the right people to be interested and devote their life to it.

It’s a big question actually - how does life work? We can go all philosophical and say algaes come out in our lives … instabilities in us allow them to come and manifest. So this model would be the key to life! 🤣

@Wookii what are you doing to me over my morning coffee …

We should stick to car analogies 🤣.

 

[Wookii]

Can really start to see why EI isn’t a bad idea.

Low ferts is bad.

High ferts is only bad with low co2 or high lights

High light is only bad with high ferts or low co2.

Low co2 is always bad.

High ferts (in column) low light proper co2

Low ferts (in column) high light proper co2

Otherwise algae 😂.

I think you can simplify that, or maybe re-word:

Low insufficient ferts is bad.

High ferts is only bad with low co2 or and high lights is bad

High light is only bad with high ferts or low co2.

Low co2 is always bad. (Lets quantify: < 15ppm - in 99% of cases yes, unless properly balanced with very low light. In the vast majority of cases, I don't see a reason not to just set and forget at 30ppm, unless very high light is used in which case that might not be sufficient without very good distribution. I find it easier just to consider CO2 as fert like any other - you want an excess above the requirements demanded by the plant, which are determined by the level of light to plant is exposed to.)

High ferts (in column) low light proper co2

Low ferts (in column) high light proper co2

To be honest I don't really get the high ferts, low ferts thing - probably because we're not defining anything. We always need an 'excess' of ferts otherwise a deficiency results, so really we are talking about the level of excess - and there we should be talking about long term accumulated excess.

AHA!

 

[JoshP12]

Lol … not touching the philosophy one eh! Hahah!

I think the ferts thing is “directional” @Wookii

If I did three water changes daily, I betcha I wouldn’t have the algae soup for the process.

I didn’t have it when I did 2 daily albeit the co2 excess times.

Do you agree that plants respond differently to ferts in water column vs ferts in substrate?

 

[Wookii]

Lol … not touching the philosophy one eh! Hahah!

Yep, staying away from that - this conversations abstract enough already! 😂

Do you agree that plants respond differently to ferts in water column vs ferts in substrate?

Honestly I don't know. It depends what you mean by 'respond differently', you need to elaborate? Most of your cut and replanted stems will have little to no roots so the healthy growth you are seeing in them is largely from acquiring nutrients from the water column I'd assume? Do you feel they are growing differently to those that have been planted form the start?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I think often one of the biggest things negatively affecting tank stability is the aquarist. New tanks often seem to take 3-4 months to achieve stability - and sure, a large chunk of that is biological maturation - but often I think that is also because it takes a couple of months before the aquarist grows tired is messing about tweaking the inputs to the tank

I think that is right. Basically <"good things come to those who wait">. It also feeds in to <"KISS and if it ain't broke don't fix it">.

If we get to a stage where it is broke? Then change one factor at a time, <"based on probability">. Once we've isolated <"the problem"> / problems then we can try manipulating parameters to "re-brake" our system.

These are validation and verification, but I'm going to leave them to somebody else, because I'm a <"pretty lazy and shoddy aquarist"> and personally I'm content to <"bump a long the bottom">.

cheers Darrel

 

[JoshP12]

Yep, staying away from that - this conversations abstract enough already! 😂

LOL.

Honestly I don't know. It depends what you mean by 'respond differently', you need to elaborate?

The root and the leaf respond to nutrient concentrations differently.

Can expand more but I think that's the crux.

I think you can simplify that, or maybe re-word:

Good additions:

Low insufficient ferts is bad.

High ferts is only bad with low co2 or and high lights is bad

High light is only bad with high ferts or low co2.

Low co2 is always bad. (Lets quantify: < 15ppm - in 99% of cases yes, unless properly balanced with very low light. In the vast majority of cases, I don't see a reason not to just set and forget at 30ppm, unless very high light is used in which case that might not be sufficient without very good distribution. I find it easier just to consider CO2 as fert like any other - you want an excess above the requirements demanded by the plant, which are determined by the level of light to plant is exposed to.)

High ferts (in column) low light proper co2

Low ferts (in column) high light proper co2

To be honest I don't really get the high ferts, low ferts thing - probably because we're not defining anything. We always need an 'excess' of ferts otherwise a deficiency results, so really we are talking about the level of excess - and there we should be talking about long term accumulated excess.

Insufficient co2 = algae.
Insuffient ferts = algae.
Insufficient light = algae.

Overly sufficient co2 = nothing
Overly sufficient ferts (in column and/or substrate or any combination) = nothing
Overly sufficient light = nothing

Sufficient level is dictated by - let's call it - the Leidbig Bottleneck.

Do any combinations of overly sufficient give algae? They can't all be overly sufficient at the same time - 1 will be the driver.

Most of your cut and replanted stems will have little to no roots so the healthy growth you are seeing in them is largely from acquiring nutrients from the water column I'd assume?

Or nutrient stores until the root grows.

Do you feel they are growing differently to those that have been planted form the start?

Nope. But I have seen plants in a mature, lean column and I mean lean - like nothing - stunt and show phosphate style deficiency and then after roots established, completely go back to normal.

 

[JoshP12]

It’s now a matter of the grind.

Little bit of time and finesse and consistent maintenance and we could formulate the scape.

It’s a matter of a lack of all that on this end.

Hopefully in a few weeks I can dedicate time to turn it around.

It’s a maintenance thing now …

 

[John q]

It’s a maintenance thing now …

Noop it's a question to the masses. Can I cough... tank still isn’t 100%, thankfully I'm along for the ride 😀