Activated carbon vs algae

[Soilwork]

I keep reading about algae triggers that are created when organics are broken down. Perhaps a chemical chain reaction that induces algae.

Would activated carbon remove these chemicals and combat the formation of algae?

 

[ian_m]

Ammonia from rotting detritus will also cause algae but will not be removed by carbon.

 

[Soilwork]

Yes interesting point. I get algae growing on my gravel. Me he gravel is capping dirt. When I uproot plants a dirt cloud forms and settles on the gravel. Do you think this is what is causing the small carpet of algae? The small carpet of algae is also in growing in the open areas where plants are not shading it. It went away when I was dosing easycarbo but now inject co2 instead. It has slowly reappeared.

 

[EdwinK]

Water change after uprooting plants should help a lot. Additional dose of oxygen helps bacteria to brake down organics.

 

[Soilwork]

Thanks I did do 50% and I'll bare that in mind.

 

[zozo]

Would activated carbon remove these chemicals and combat the formation of algae?

No it does not , alledged their was a time where was oftenly stated active carbon will remove some chelated fertilizers. Which cause again a shortage which could induce algae growth because of that. But this old information seems to be debunked in these modern days and seems to be not the case. Activated carbon does not remove things from the water which prevent plants and or algea from growing.

Their are always several added scenarios which are the cause of certain algae to appear, activated carbon in a sence could contribute to ellimitad a related factor to the cause but it does not filter out any particular chemicals which are exclusive algae triggers. For example if you have a tank with low light which water is sevarely stained with tanines then the bad light penetration into the water could prevent plants from receiving it and will not grow fast enough and could induce a certain algae to appear more easily. Then using easy carbon to clear out the tanines, so more light will penetrate, could contribute to battle this. That's as far as i know the only possible (maybe even far fetched) possitive side to activated carbon where it could contribute with fighting certain kind of algea.

 

[Soilwork]

I may need to be more clear. I have read comments by members on here who hypothesise that when plants begin to decay, the bacterial breakdown processes may release almost hormonal organic chemicals that algae my sense and trigger a bloom so not necessarily chemicals such as ferts.

Thanks

 

[ian_m]

I have read comments by members on here who hypothesise that when plants begin to decay, the bacterial breakdown processes may release almost hormonal organic chemicals that algae my sense and trigger a bloom so not necessarily chemicals such as ferts

Not an hypothesis, but a fact, as can be seen that the leaves of dying/suffering plants very quickly get covered in algae, regardless of phosphate or nitrate or light level levels.

 

[xim]

Would activated carbon remove these chemicals and combat the formation of algae?

Tried that. I mean I "really" tried that by buying an Eheim 2213 and bottles of Seachem Matrix Carbon
only for this purpose. It failed, waste of money. The water was crystal clear with algae that looked
as happy as ever.

 

[zozo]

That's not even true with algea but also with moss, which also grows on decaying plant matter, like you see in bellow picture where moss is growing on a dried out leaf tip from an echinodorus which is sticking out the water.

Algae and mosses, do not root nor need roots like plants do which are higher up the evolution chain. But still they both are plants even they are in primitive form, never had the need to develop roots. And because they are lower plant life forms with a less advanced biological systems, they need much less perfect circumstances to grow and thrive. So if the conditions are to less for a higher plant, algae can still grow like a champ, but both plants as well as algae need the same basic chemicals to grow, algae only much less and in much less balanced combinations. So if a plant is suffering from shortage and there for dying, it's still yummy yummy for algae.

Now you say chemicals and not nessecary ferts, bottom line is is all ferts are chemical elements, even the vitamines. hormones etc are made out of several chemical elements which all can be classified as ferts if they are beneficial to plantgrowth. Decaying plant matter is in fact a base material to function again as ferts because it is already build from the same blocks to begin with, it only needs to converted back to usefull elements so it can be used again. That's happening via a biological process with the help of bacteria. This bacteria eats dead plant material and poop out ferts (chemicals, vitamins and hormones) If an algae spore lands in this bacteria poop it's again yummy time for the algae and it grows on the dying plant leaves. The more dying plant leaves you have the more of this poop is available for algae to grow. Now since the plant leaves are dying there ost be something wrong with the chemical balance in the tank, plants are dying algae are growing. So we must find out why and turn this process arround, their must be something a mis which plants need more of and algae not. If we get the whole process back on track where plant start to grow and get healthy again, it will eventualy eat it's own dead leaves (bacterial poop) itself again. Their alway will be algae around to profit also from that, but it's our aim to favor the plants more than the algae. Maximum plantgrowth, minimum algae growth.

Activated carbon filters out compounts which are not in the element chart which are usefull for plants or algae.. After all they are both from the same family and need the same stuff. If carbon did it would be useless to us.

 

[Soilwork]

Not an hypothesis, but a fact, as can be seen that the leaves of dying/suffering plants very quickly get covered in algae, regardless of phosphate or nitrate or light level levels.

Ok I wasn't sure. Didn't want to be attacked asking for scientific evidence of this and since I also saw no scientific evidence that this is the exact reason algae grows in the threads I am referring to either I thought it would be better to use the word hypothesis at this point. I know algae grows on leaves I have seen it myself.

 

[Soilwork]

Tried that. I mean I "really" tried that by buying an Eheim 2213 and bottles of Seachem Matrix Carbon
only for this purpose. It failed, waste of money. The water was crystal clear with algae that looked
as happy as ever.

Thanks. Do you think it is possible the carbon may have been removing such chemicals but the causal if the algae was more overwhelming than could have been aided by carbon?

 

[Soilwork]

That's not even true with algea but also with moss, which also grows on decaying plant matter, like you see in bellow picture where moss is growing on a dried out leaf tip from an echinodorus which is sticking out the water.
View attachment 81276

Algae and mosses, do not root nor need roots like plants do which are higher up the evolution chain. But still they both are plants even they are in primitive form, never had the need to develop roots. And because they are lower plant life forms with a less advanced biological systems, they need much less perfect circumstances to grow and thrive. So if the conditions are to less for a higher plant, algae can still grow like a champ, but both plants as well as algae need the same basic chemicals to grow, algae only much less and in much less balanced combinations. So if a plant is suffering from shortage and there for dying, it's still yummy yummy for algae.

Now you say chemicals and not nessecary ferts, bottom line is is all ferts are chemical elements, even the vitamines. hormones etc are made out of several chemical elements which all can be classified as ferts if they are beneficial to plantgrowth. Decaying plant matter is in fact a base material to function again as ferts because it is already build from the same blocks to begin with, it only needs to converted back to usefull elements so it can be used again. That's happening via a biological process with the help of bacteria. This bacteria eats dead plant material and poop out ferts (chemicals, vitamins and hormones) If an algae spore lands in this bacteria poop it's again yummy time for the algae and it grows on the dying plant leaves. The more dying plant leaves you have the more of this poop is available for algae to grow. Now since the plant leaves are dying there ost be something wrong with the chemical balance in the tank, plants are dying algae are growing. So we must find out why and turn this process arround, their must be something a mis which plants need more of and algae not. If we get the whole process back on track where plant start to grow and get healthy again, it will eventualy eat it's own dead leaves (bacterial poop) itself again. Their alway will be algae around to profit also from that, but it's our aim to favor the plants more than the algae. Maximum plantgrowth, minimum algae growth.

Activated carbon filters out compounts which are not in the element chart which are usefull for plants or algae.. After all they are both from the same family and need the same stuff. If carbon did it would be useless to us.

Thanks, I really do get all of this and agree with the logic. I simply tried to seperate ferts and hormones in case you thought I meant nutrients in the form we dry dose are tanks. I don't won't you to think that I think excess nutrients directly cause algae. I've heard many times that activated carbon removed 'dissolved organics' so was wondering if the chemicals released by bacteria poop would be removed by carbon.

Sorry I couldn't grasp your last paragraph.

 

[xim]

Thanks. Do you think it is possible the carbon may have been removing such chemicals but the causal if the algae was more overwhelming than could have been aided by carbon?

Asking "is it possible" in a situation we don't know all the factors is always resulted in "it is possible".

 

[Soilwork]

Asking "is it possible" in a situation we don't know all the factors is always resulted in "it is possible".

That is true. You just seemed so sure it was a failure and waste of money.

 

[xim]

Why wasn't it a waste of money when that couldn't solve my problem?
I should not have participated in this thread.

 

[Soilwork]

My question was are the organic chemicals released via decomposition by bacteria, chemicals that activated carbon readily take up. And in the event that it does could carbon be used as a compliment to water changes to help remove these chemicals from the water column and thus combat algae. You said no because you did an experiment and it didn't work for you. Fair enough, I ask do you think it is possible that it does work but not in your case and u get a ridiculous philosophical answers about possibilities. Your right you shouldn't have participated.

 

[Soilwork]

By the way, just so we are on the same page, I am referring to this thread on this forum which lists some of the things carbon readily takes up are dissolved organic compounds, phenols etc.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/does-carbon-remove-trace-elements.6980/#post-77856

 

[zozo]

dissolved organic compounds

Which can be many things, but probably not things which are ready for use to plants and algea. For Example The colors it removes, as stated in your linked post are most likely pointed to tannins, staining the water in a tea color. Those tannins are disolved organic compounds leaching from wood or from decaying leaves. These organic compounts if not removed probably in the end will be broken down to others, usefull or not. But thats not the point, the point is it staines our water and if you don't like that you could use a product like activated carbon to filter it out.

Phenols, make your tank stink like a swamp or a sewage in the worst case.. They are organic compounts ending up in your nose due to leaving the tank. But the organics in the tank realising this parfum also gets filtered out with carbon. So if you smell your tank and you don't like it you know what to use.

A very simple example coffee is an dissolved organic compound. But this dissolved is a bit missleading word.. Tho dissolved it still is an seperate molucule by it self floating around in the water you made your coffee with. You know how instant coffee is made?? They brew a nice pot of coffee the regular way like we do it each morning.. The cup off coffee they get from that is heated under presure above 100 celcius. Then is is released in a hot dry chamber as steam. Where the water eveporates and to the chamber walls a residue of brown powder stays behind. That's collected and sold as instant coffee.

A kind of powder like this is the organic compound coloring you tank water and we cal it tannins, activated carbon takes it out.

 

[Soilwork]

Which can be many things, but probably not things which are ready for use to plants and algea. For Example The colors it removes, as stated in your linked post are most likely pointed to tannins, staining the water in a tea color. Those tannins are disolved organic compounds leaching from wood or from decaying leaves. These organic compounts if not removed probably in the end will be broken down to others, usefull or not. But thats not the point, the point is it staines our water and if you don't like that you could use a product like activated carbon to filter it out.

Phenols, make your tank stink like a swamp or a sewage in the worst case.. They are organic compounts ending up in your nose due to leaving the tank. But the organics in the tank realising this parfum also gets filtered out with carbon. So if you smell your tank and you don't like it you know what to use.

A very simple example coffee is an dissolved organic compound. But this dissolved is a bit missleading word.. Tho dissolved it still is an seperate molucule by it self floating around in the water you made your coffee with. You know how instant coffee is made?? They brew a nice pot of coffee the regular way like we do it each morning.. The cup off coffee they get from that is heated under presure above 100 celcius. Then is is released in a hot dry chamber as steam. Where the water eveporates and to the chamber walls a residue of brown powder stays behind. That's collected and sold as instant coffee.

A kind of powder like this is the organic compound coloring you tank water and we cal it tannins, activated carbon takes it out.

Thanks I understand what you are saying, the link is vary vague in its approach. For example, it specifically lists things such as phenols, alcohols, tannins then just gives a vary broad yet vague 'dissolved organic compounds' other links just refer to them as 'dissolved organic substances' as if there are too many to list or they don't really know what they are. What about allelochemicals? Are they classed as dissolved organic compounds? Diana Walstad says that these would be removed via activated carbon. She provides 3 tables full of different allelochemicals. Are these classes as dissolved organic compounds? If so, and activated carbon removes them then what else does it remove?

This is a statement made in a thread by ceg4048

" So when plants are healthy and growing the spores, sampling the environment would detect low or otherwise stable ammonia levels, adequate CO2 and O2 levels, or perhaps would not sense an ammonia gradient across a plant leaf, or, it might even be that the combination of organic products leaching from the plant may have a certain characteristic identifiable as healthy export."

This is where I am basing my question. If it is true that algae can 'sense' combinations of organic products leaching from the plant (the same way plants release allelochemicals?) that can trigger a spore to bloom then is it wrong of me to think that charcoal would not remove these also?

I am only asking, I have good logic based on what I have read to assume that it would and I am merely presenting that information to you. I am not saying you are wrong. Would just like to know if this could be an extra benefit of carbon. Walstad even describes a scenario in which she actively uses charcoal to defeat green water algae.