ADA 60F iwagumi

[Lindy]

Hi, I wish someone who uses an up inline diffuser would comment on whether the white sludge is normal or not. I would be worried that something was coming out if the fe, that would certainly go some way to explain your struggle. It doesn't sound normal to me but I don't use an fe(had flo co2 cannister) and had an in tank up diffuser. Hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

[Deano3]

hi mate comes off easily with brush and cannot be FE as regulator to inline diffuser fine its just inline diffuser into tank so just the inlet pipe must be co2 reacting with water but maybe someone will comment if there's does it, going to have to order drop checker be more carefull from now on, also going to do the ph test what ceg recommended on Thursday

Thanks Dean

 

[aliclarke86]

My friend had a problem with strange sludge not long ago not with an inline defuser but was to do with co2 it did clear up. I will ask him about it for you mate

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[foxfish]

It would be great to see a vid of the tank with the gas on mate, is the tank really full of mist?

 

[Deano3]

yes is there any other sites rather than image shack to unload with as cannot seem to upload a vid and I will get one tomorrow

Thanks dean

 

[foxfish]

I use photobucket myself

 

[Samjpikey]

Just upload it to you tube and post the URL

 

[Deano3]

thanks guys off on Thursday so will get vid but quality will probably be rubbish lol but will try

Thanks dean

 

[Deano3]

Hi all well been reading my ph all day and reaults will follow, firsly horrible white powder on surface and algae hasn't retreated at all and still carrying out water change every 3 days here is some pics sorry about quality only have nexus Coolpix so not the best lol





would you advice changing the sponge media














you can clearly see the algae on all the pics anyway PH readings started at gas on at 6.6ppm then within hour to 6.4ppm then stayed at this all day until just before gas off went down to 6.2 then back up to 6.6 within hour or so will upload vid asap uploading very slowly at the moment, is the PH mean to drop from say 6.6ppm to 5.6ppm by time lights come on ?

thanks and any input will be great
Dean

 

[ceg4048]

Dean,
Please stop referring to pH using the units of ppm. The ppm unit is an acronym for "parts per million" and has no relevance to pH which has no unit. It is just the logarithm of a simple number. That simple number is the number of free Hydrogen ions (H+) in the water. The calculation of pH goes something like this: pH = log10[H+]
Knowing that the pH is 6.6 you can solve the equation for the H+ count:
[H+] = 10-pH
[H+] = 10-6.6
[H+] = 2.5 X 10-7
That's the number of moles of Hydrogen so to get a real number multiply by the molar constant 6.02 X 1023
So [ 2.5 X 10-7] x [6.02 X 10-23 ] = 150,500,000,000,000,000 or, about 150.5 million million Hydrogen ions.

OK, so then your pH dropped to 6.4, so doing the same calculation, it can be seen that the number of H+ increased to 239,660,516,673,205,344, or about 239 million million Hydrogen ions. That's only a 60% increase.

Ideally, you would want the number of Hydrogen ions to increase at lights on from 150.5 million million to about 1,505 million million. That's a 1000% increase, and that would show up as a pH of about 5.6 at lights on.

The increase in free Hydrogen ions is a direct indicator of how the CO2 is dissolving, because when CO2 dissolves, a small amount gets converted to acid and this acid, by definition liberates Hydrogen ions (H+) into the water column.

So this is part of your problem. I specifically did all this tedious calculation so that you get a better feel for what the heck the pH is and what it is that we are trying to accomplish. Taking a pH reading tells you what the rate of change in the Hydrogen content is, which in turn, tells you what the rate of change of CO2 in the water is.

The goal is to change the pH from the "pre-gas on" value to some value approaching a -1 unit pH difference. This is not always achievable without annihilating the fish. It's a very tricky business, but at lights on is THE most critical time of the day for CO2. That will make or break your tank. After about 4 or 5 hours of gas the plants really do not care so much about CO2. So it's possible to increase the injection rate and then to turn the gas off very early to avoid toxicity. When you turn the gas off early after a high injection rate, the residual CO2 content will feed the plants until the end of the photoperiod. Also, flow and distribution are primary factors, so if you want to avoid toxicity then you have to make sure that you have good flow rate and distribution techniques. That way you don't have to drive the pH so low because the flow and distribution will carry the CO2 more efficiently to the leaves.

In any case, forget about film and sponges for now. They are symptoms, not causes.

Fix your CO2/flow/distribution first. Make small incremental changes to the injection rate and/ or turn the gas on earlier while measuring the pH changes from gas on to lights on. Obviously you want to avoid killing the fish, so do this on a day off when you can be home to monitor the tank.

Cheers,

 

[Lindy]

Or alternatively this shallow tank would be great for a low tech tank with emersed growth like the 'bucket of mud' or 'chocolate puddle' but in miniature.

 

[Deano3]

Dean,
Please stop referring to pH using the units of ppm. The ppm unit is an acronym for "parts per million" and has no relevance to pH which has no unit. It is just the logarithm of a simple number. That simple number is the number of free Hydrogen ions (H+) in the water. The calculation of pH goes something like this: pH = log10[H+]
Knowing that the pH is 6.6 you can solve the equation for the H+ count:
[H+] = 10-pH
[H+] = 10-6.6
[H+] = 2.5 X 10-7
That's the number of moles of Hydrogen so to get a real number multiply by the molar constant 6.02 X 1023
So [ 2.5 X 10-7] x [6.02 X 10-23 ] = 150,500,000,000,000,000 or, about 150.5 million million Hydrogen ions.

OK, so then your pH dropped to 6.4, so doing the same calculation, it can be seen that the number of H+ increased to 239,660,516,673,205,344, or about 239 million million Hydrogen ions. That's only a 60% increase.

Ideally, you would want the number of Hydrogen ions to increase at lights on from 150.5 million million to about 1,505 million million. That's a 1000% increase, and that would show up as a pH of about 5.6 at lights on.

The increase in free Hydrogen ions is a direct indicator of how the CO2 is dissolving, because when CO2 dissolves, a small amount gets converted to acid and this acid, by definition liberates Hydrogen ions (H+) into the water column.

So this is part of your problem. I specifically did all this tedious calculation so that you get a better feel for what the heck the pH is and what it is that we are trying to accomplish. Taking a pH reading tells you what the rate of change in the Hydrogen content is, which in turn, tells you what the rate of change of CO2 in the water is.

The goal is to change the pH from the "pre-gas on" value to some value approaching a -1 unit pH difference. This is not always achievable without annihilating the fish. It's a very tricky business, but at lights on is THE most critical time of the day for CO2. That will make or break your tank. After about 4 or 5 hours of gas the plants really do not care so much about CO2. So it's possible to increase the injection rate and then to turn the gas off very early to avoid toxicity. When you turn the gas off early after a high injection rate, the residual CO2 content will feed the plants until the end of the photoperiod. Also, flow and distribution are primary factors, so if you want to avoid toxicity then you have to make sure that you have good flow rate and distribution techniques. That way you don't have to drive the pH so low because the flow and distribution will carry the CO2 more efficiently to the leaves.

In any case, forget about film and sponges for now. They are symptoms, not causes.

Fix your CO2/flow/distribution first. Make small incremental changes to the injection rate and/ or turn the gas on earlier while measuring the pH changes from gas on to lights on. Obviously you want to avoid killing the fish, so do this on a day off when you can be home to monitor the tank.

Cheers,

Well firstly I am glad you did the calculations lol and I now understand what the ph is and how the co2 influences it, so from gas on to lights on should drop from say 6.6 to 5.6 my test kit is not very good and doesn't even go that low but if goes yellow I will know, the gas already comes on 3 hours early and bubbles constantly streaming out what other changes would you recommend maybe a normal style Lilly pipe to change flow ? And don't want to go low tech just want this sorted then upgrade unless someone wanna trade lol

Thanks dean

 

[ceg4048]

Well, save your pennies and get a pH probe like the one I mentioned in the thread Unknown algae - please help? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Again, depending on the alkalinity of your water, it may not be necessary to drop the pH that low. If you measure KH to be much above 10 for example, then you may only need to drop the pH to around 5. High alkalinity kidnaps the H+ ions, so it masks how much acid is being produced, and therefore masks how much CO2 is actually being dissolved. That's why the dropchecker uses an acid free distilled water adjusted to a known low KH of 4, so that the color changes are predictable and consistent.

I was too lazy to browse through 21 pages of journal to see what distribution method and how much flow you have. I thought you already had one of those Gush lily pipes? Are you following the 10X rule? It may be that you need to use a stronger filter or maybe remove some of the media if the filter is chock full of media. That will improve flow. It's not clear how much light you are using. It may be as simple as reducing the light intensity for a while if you are over the top with lighting. As I mentioned before you have to play with the timing and injection rate. Maybe you can get away with a much higher injection rate 1 hour before lights on and then turn the gas off early to avoid overdose. Maybe 2 hours prior with a moderate injection rate increase. That is the art of CO2 injection.

I don't agree with the poster who thinks you should give up and go low tech. Shallow tanks are not automatically destined for CO2 injection failure. It doesn't matter what kind of tank you have, deep, or shallow, you'll have exactly the same problem.

Cheers,

 

[Deano3]

Thanks Clive I had a o-bubble lily pipe what forced water to surface and think was loosing lot of my co2 but the normal style one that forces it forward might be better ? Also I have one 12w bulb that very hight above tank as you can see in pics think the bulb is Hagen power bulb I think, the free is quite large for 36l tank sure its tater for 450l but will double check when get home, would you advise emptying out half the Medea out of the trays I have tubes in one and small balls in the other

Thanks dean

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Dean,
Yes definitely remove half the media. That will improve flow. The noodles are especially viscous. Their job is specifically to slow the flow so that the suspended particles fall out of solution and get trapped. You can even replace all that stuff with just foam or any cheap material like alfagrog.

It's always better if your pipe output forces water down. You need to get water down to the substrate, not up. That's like turning the heating on in your room and leaving the windows wise open...

Cheers,

 

[Lindy]

I didn't think he should give up, I just just felt no one could blame him for changing tack.

 

[Deano3]

thanks lindy not giving up keep fighting on lol I will remove half of media tonight when do tank clean and is there any other way to make the carbon dissolve better ? adjusting pressure at reg etc ?

also from the pics what algae do you think it is and also I have 1x24w not 12 sorry

Dean

 

[ceg4048]

I'm not really sure mate. It could be diatoms or could be GSA. If it wipes off easily it's diatoms, if not then it's GSA. I mean, there could be both and more in there at the same time.

Injection rate increase works the same as regulator pressure increase, so there is not much else to do other than to improve flow and distribution. If it was possible to extend the outlet pipe to the bottom and send the flow across the substrate that would work, but that isn't practical or aesthetic. If your filter output were strong enough you could even install a spraybar on either the left or right wall, but, again, that might not be what you are looking for aesthetically.

Cheers,

 

[Deano3]

I'm not really sure mate. It could be diatoms or could be GSA. If it wipes off easily it's diatoms, if not then it's GSA. I mean, there could be both and more in there at the same time.

Injection rate increase works the same as regulator pressure increase, so there is not much else to do other than to improve flow and distribution. If it was possible to extend the outlet pipe to the bottom and send the flow across the substrate that would work, but that isn't practical or aesthetic. If your filter output were strong enough you could even install a spraybar on either the left or right wall, but, again, that might not be what you are looking for aesthetically.

Cheers,

well clive tonight I have removed half (if not more) of the media in the trays and also I found the one side of the tray has the suction tube were the water travels up and found this to be sitting on a shelf were the heater comes out so restricting flow so turned that around so flow should be better, also I am currently using spray bar facing front of tank and plants and grass swaying a bit less at the rear but still must be stronger flow now, hopefully this helps out hugely.

also I don't have any fish in tank at the minute so not worried about gassing but co2 already constant stream out of bubble counter before entering my up-aqua inline diffuser so wont adjust my co2,would you advise moving light any more (practically on celling) lol and can I ask how the flow makes such a huge difference in regards to dissolving co2 ?


Thanks again
Dean

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Dean,
OK, well any increase in flow rate will help a lot. I didn't realize you had installed spraybars. I understand that you don't have any fish now, and so that great if you have no limits on how much CO2 you can add at the moment, however, at some point you will presumably add fish, so then you need to be able to satisfy the plants demand for CO2 while not killing the fish. SO that's why you need to think about how to solve this puzzle, at least for the future when you do plan to add fish.

Without knowing what the PAR values are it's difficult to say. If these are T5/T8 then there is a useful chart to give you an idea of what the PAR levels are, but if this is LED then only direct measurements can confirm the PAR, since there are so many different LED configurations. Of course you can use floating plants or other types of light barriers to reduce the intensity, but I think that the flow rates and injection rates are the primary factors.

Flow rate improves the mixing and dissolution of any gas within the reactor simply by energizing the mix, but that is not the primary advantage of high flow. Have a look at my explanations in these two posts and check the video for as long as you can stomach it:

inline devices | UK Aquatic Plant Society
Outdoor Planted Tank. (Vietnam) Possible? **Pics Page 4** | UK Aquatic Plant Society

So there is the flow rate which is a property related to energy and there is distribution which allocates the energy evenly across the tank. Both have to be addressed. The spraybars address distribution and the 10X rule addresses the energy requirements.

Cheers,