Cycling confusion

[Aly14]

Hi All,
I'm new here and new to aquariums. I was hoping to ask if anyone could please help me how to cycle my new tank. I have read numerous forums, and online information, and all I have found is conflicting information. Which has lead to a lot of confusion.
A little background, I have recently purchased a Juwel Lido 120L LED tank. My hope is to set up a heavily planted low tech tank. Once that has established I would like to introduce a handful of different tropical fish (tetras, guppies and maybe something else), and shrimp. For my substrate I have purchased ADA Amazonia Version 2 aquasoil. I also have a large piece of driftwood and some rocks to add to my tank.

Whilst at my LFS I was advised to cycle with just my hardscape, and add in beneficial bacteria. This I was told could take up to 4 weeks, but could be longer depending on how much ammonia the aquasoil releases. This information conflicts with a lot of what I have read online, which often recommends to heavily plant (~70%) at the beginning. I have also recently come across the dark start method, which is suggested to be a safer method with less risk of plants melting. I really don't know which method to use, and how to go with implementing that i.e. I have not been able to find step by step instructions.

If anyone could offer any advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

Apologies for any bad formatting, I'm on a mobile.

Thanks,
Aly

 

[erwin123]

What was the reason that the LFS gave you for not using plants?

For cycling using plants do note it refers to the stem plants that grow like weeds and are basically indestructible. As a bonus, plants should come with bacteria so you might not even need to buy a magic bottle of bacteria.

You should not be using plants like Bucephelandra to cycle the tank, for example.

 

[Aly14]

Hi Erwin, thanks for your reply.

He said the ammonia released by the aquasoil would cause the plants to melt. That plants do better after cycling the tank first. This is contrary to a lot of what I have read.

Thanks for the tip on the plants. It makes sense that stem plants would fair better. Can I include epiphytic and floating plants to my initial setup? I was hoping to include Java fern and Anubias, maybe Java moss and some type of floating plant (possibly water wisteria). For stem plants I was thinking about getting Crypts, Vallisneria and Ludwigia Repens. Do you think these plants would fair all right in my initial setup? If you have any suggestions, I'm happy to take them on board.

I have already purchased a magic bottle of bacteria. Is there any harm in using this?

Do you have any advice on how much and how frequently I should do water changes?

Thank you for your help.

 

[erwin123]

• pls go ahead and use the bacteria bottle. at the minimum, it will provide 'food' for the other useful bacteria in your tank
• java fern /anubias/crypts are hardy but slow growing so you won't get the feedback that you need from them . See:

Why this? Tips on keeping Java Fern and Anubias

Above: Java Fern 'melt' ( courtesy of Tiffany P.) Java Fern (microsorum pteropus) and Anubias barteri ‘nana’ are among the hobby’s most hardy plants. They can thrive in both softwater and hardwater, and can take anything from high to very low amounts of light. They don’t need CO2 or substrate to...

www.2hraquarist.com

- over and above that, you should be looking at fast growing stem plants. L. Repens qualifies and you want to plant them heavily from the start

-floating plants are fine and there are many who use them. I'm not a fan because I prefer not to block the light (if i wanted less light I would just dial down my lighting intensity)

 

[Hanuman]

Whilst at my LFS I was advised to cycle with just my hardscape, and add in beneficial bacteria. This I was told could take up to 4 weeks, but could be longer depending on how much ammonia the aquasoil releases. This information conflicts with a lot of what I have read online, which often recommends to heavily plant (~70%) at the beginning. I have also recently come across the dark start method, which is suggested to be a safer method with less risk of plants melting. I really don't know which method to use, and how to go with implementing that i.e. I have not been able to find step by step instructions.

What your LFS told you is not wrong and many people opt to cycle their tank that way. So you can either do a dark start with 0 plants or as @erwin123 suggested, do a normal start with fast growing and hardy plants. Either way works and they are not in contradiction. They are just different methods. If you decide to plant straight away, just don't go for expensive and sensitive plants at the start as those will tend to melt, but the truth is that those are a very very small minority of plants sp. in the hobby. Go for fast growing stem plants and floaters. Since you are using Amazonia V2, you shouldn't have loads of ammonia anyway but that is not the only reason why some plants sp. melt.

Can I include epiphytic and floating plants to my initial setup?

Anubias you could. Bucephalandra I would not recommend. Wait for the tank to cycle first and ammonia to drop down.

For stem plants I was thinking about getting Crypts, Vallisneria and Ludwigia Repens. Do you think these plants would fair all right in my initial setup? If you have any suggestions, I'm happy to take them on board.

Yes should be fine. Crypts will tend to melt anyway since that sp. doesn't usually like being uprooted so it could even melt initially on a mature setup.
The very large majority of plants will do fine though so it all boils down to what you want to do.

 

[Aly14]

Thank you both for your advice.

If I do opt to cycle my tank with plants, would it be reasonable to do daily 50% water changes for the first week, then 50% changes every other day for the next 2-3weeks, and then 50% weekly changes after that.

I have recently come across a few forums where people add an additive as a base layer before adding your substrate. Is this necessary?

When is the best time to introduce shrimp and fish? Should shrimp be introduced first?

Sorry for all the questions. I want to know as much as possible.

Thank you.

 

[Hanuman]

If I do opt to cycle my tank with plants, would it be reasonable to do daily 50% water changes for the first week, then 50% changes every other day for the next 2-3weeks, and then 50% weekly changes after that.

Yes overall that's the approach most people take. This is to reduce the excess ammonia, dissolve organics and the tinting of the water caused by the soil and wood leaching tannins.

I have recently come across a few forums where people add an additive as a base layer before adding your substrate. Is this necessary?

Which additives are you referring to?

When is the best time to introduce shrimp and fish? Should shrimp be introduced first?

Introduce when your ammonia and nitrite read 0.
Shrimps are usually the ones I would introduce the last because they are more sensitive to parameters. I would personally start with snails (if you want them), then fish and finally shrimps, each a week or more apart to prevent ammonia/nitrite spikes.

 

[Aly14]

Yes overall that's the approach most people take. This is to reduce the excess ammonia, dissolve organics and the tinting of the water caused by the soil and wood leaching tannins.

Thank you for helping to clear this up. How often would you recommend testing the water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

Which additives are you referring to?

ADA Power Sand Advanced M. It is expensive, so I would like to know if it's necessary. If not, would you recommend adding a base layer?

Introduce when your ammonia and nitrite read 0.
Shrimps are usually the ones I would introduce the last because they are more sensitive to parameters. I would personally start with snails (if you want them), then fish and finally shrimps, each a week or more apart to prevent ammonia/nitrite spikes.

I had considered adding snails, but I was worried their numbers would get too large. Is this a legitimate concern? Also, do they eat the plants in the tank?

Thank you.

 

[colley614@]

Personally, when cycling, I keep an eye on my test kits. I'll usually just buy cheap test strips for cycling and when the levels hit max on the test strip I will do a 50% water change. Test strips are considered by many as inaccurate and I only use them with the attitude of, it's either in my water column or its not as opposed to looking for exact readings. I've spent far too much money buying a posh test kit only to have run out of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate by the tank has cycled.

 

[Hanuman]

Thank you for helping to clear this up. How often would you recommend testing the water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

That's really up to you during the cycling. You can do it freestyle and test let's say once a week or even once every 2 weeks. No hard rules here, at least not for me.

ADA Power Sand Advanced M. It is expensive, so I would like to know if it's necessary. If not, would you recommend adding a base layer?

I would say it's not necessary and in fact can even be detrimental depending the type of scape your are doing. For example on a farm or Dutch tank with a flat substrate where you intend to uproot often, using Power Sand could be quite problematic. On the other hand for long term scapes where you intend to have deeper substrate layers at the middle or back of the tank, it can actually be quite beneficial and in fact can end up being cheaper than just using plain aquasoil. It really all boils down to what you want to do. Only advise I would give is not to add Power Sand where your substrate is shallow. Only use it where you have deeper layers. To prevent it mixing with the aqua-soil you could also put the Power Sand in some mesh bags.
Finally, just so that you know, Power Sand is in fact pumice. ADA simply adds some additives, like bacteria and other stuff to promote growth at the early stages of the tank and then pumps up the price, but you can very well live without those additives. This means you can buy very cheap pumice and say bye bye to ADA

 

[Aly14]

Personally, when cycling, I keep an eye on my test kits. I'll usually just buy cheap test strips for cycling and when the levels hit max on the test strip I will do a 50% water change. Test strips are considered by many as inaccurate and I only use them with the attitude of, it's either in my water column or its not as opposed to looking for exact readings. I've spent far too much money buying a posh test kit only to have run out of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate by the tank has cycled.

I think I might be guilty of having spent too much money on a test kit. Thank you for your suggestion. If you only do a 50% water change when your levels max out, does that mean you do less water changes? If so, does this have any detrimental effect on your plants? I'm quite curious to know if you have had much success with this, as I live in an area where we don't receive much rain. Any way to save water is a bonus.

would say it's not necessary and in fact can even be detrimental depending the type of scape your are doing. For example on a farm or Dutch tank with a flat substrate where you intend to uproot often, using Power Sand could be quite problematic. On the other hand for long term scapes where you intend to have deeper substrate layers at the middle or back of the tank, it can actually be quite beneficial and in fact can end up being cheaper than just using plain aquasoil. It really all boils down to what you want to do. Only advise I would give is not to add Power Sand where your substrate is shallow. Only use it where you have deeper layers. To prevent it mixing with the aqua-soil you could also put the Power Sand in some mesh bags.
Finally, just so that you know, Power Sand is in fact pumice. ADA simply adds some additives, like bacteria and other stuff to promote growth at the early stages of the tank and then pumps up the price, but you can very well live without those additives. This means you can buy very cheap pumice and say bye bye to ADA

That is actually really interesting. I remember reading somewhere, someone suggesting crushing up lava rock, and using it as a base layer. Their idea was the porous nature of the rock would facilitate the growth of beneficial bacteria. As I was hoping to have a longer term scape, do you think this would provide a good base layer?

 

[_Maq_]

He said the ammonia released by the aquasoil would cause the plants to melt. That plants do better after cycling the tank first. This is contrary to a lot of what I have read.

Here's my (minority) opinion. Dark start is definitely the safest and cheapest way. Its sole drawback is that it requires patience.

I have already purchased a magic bottle of bacteria. Is there any harm in using this?

Actually, yes, there is. If you understand cycling as nitrogen cycling, then most bacterial inoculations would make it slower. Yet if you're using ADA active soil, it would make no difference.

you shouldn't have loads of ammonia anyway but that is not the only reason why some plants sp. melt.

PRECISELY!
After establishing a tank, the more so if you use a substrate other than pure sand, a microbial storm occurs. Various microbes proliferate and die-off in rapid sequence. Each of them produces various compounds, some of them harmful for plants and fish - there's way more of them than just ammonia and nitrites! All of them consume a lot of oxygen and may easily push the oxygen level below what higher plants can handle. Not only bacteria but also algae and fungi develop, and these can be particularly harmful to plants. It's truly a dangerous place.
It's better to wait until the storm is over. You don't have to do water changes. You don't have to use your test kits. Just wait. At best, keep your tank really dark, under a blanket, or so. After some six weeks, you should do a large water change (say, 80 %) and you may begin planting your tank.
Of course, cycling with plain sand substrate is much faster and easier.
Others may think differently but I stand to my opinion that all "advanced" substrates are good solely for sucking money from hobbyists' pockets... just like filtration media with high colonization area, and many other inventions.

 

[Hanuman]

That is actually really interesting. I remember reading somewhere, someone suggesting crushing up lava rock, and using it as a base layer. Their idea was the porous nature of the rock would facilitate the growth of beneficial bacteria. As I was hoping to have a longer term scape, do you think this would provide a good base layer?

You can use lava rock as well. Serves the same purpose. No need to crush it though. You can buy it directly since lava rock is sold in different sizes. That is in fact what I have planned for my next scape. I just got myself 10kg of 0.5-1mm lava rock a month ago and will be using it to raise rocks and substrate.

 

[LMuhlen]

My limited experience suggests that dark start vs dense planted start are both valid choices with the respective disadvantages of having a longer setup time vs doing lots of water changes to prevent algae.

If you don't mind waiting, a dark start will probably allow for less work during the first few weeks, after planting.

 

[Aly14]

Here's my (minority) opinion. Dark start is definitely the safest and cheapest way. Its sole drawback is that it requires patience.

Actually, yes, there is. If you understand cycling as nitrogen cycling, then most bacterial inoculations would make it slower. Yet if you're using ADA active soil, it would make no difference.

PRECISELY!
After establishing a tank, the more so if you use a substrate other than pure sand, a microbial storm occurs. Various microbes proliferate and die-off in rapid sequence. Each of them produces various compounds, some of them harmful for plants and fish - there's way more of them than just ammonia and nitrites! All of them consume a lot of oxygen and may easily push the oxygen level below what higher plants can handle. Not only bacteria but also algae and fungi develop, and these can be particularly harmful to plants. It's truly a dangerous place.
It's better to wait until the storm is over. You don't have to do water changes. You don't have to use your test kits. Just wait. At best, keep your tank really dark, under a blanket, or so. After some six weeks, you should do a large water change (say, 80 %) and you may begin planting your tank.
Of course, cycling with plain sand substrate is much faster and easier.
Others may think differently but I stand to my opinion that all "advanced" substrates are good solely for sucking money from hobbyists' pockets... just like filtration media with high colonization area, and many other inventions.

The dark start does make a lot of sense. I have been tempted to give it a go, but I don't know if my patience will hold out. I haven't been able to find a lot of information on, which makes me feel less confident in trying it. In the first 6 weeks do you do any water changes? Do you just run the filter during this time? Would it be beneficial to run the heater as well, as I would have thought this would help with bacterial growth.
After the 6 weeks do you test the water? How do you know it has been cycled?
The other area I'm unsure of, is how easy is it to plant with a tank that has 20% water left in it? If I want to glue epiphytic plants to my hardscape, how can I do this if it's submerged?
Sorry for all the questions, I'm very new to all of this, and my experience is lacking.

My limited experience suggests that dark start vs dense planted start are both valid choices with the respective disadvantages of having a longer setup time vs doing lots of water changes to prevent algae.

If you don't mind waiting, a dark start will probably allow for less work during the first few weeks, after planting.

I am tempted to use the dark start method. Less water changes sounds pretty good. Coming from a place that does not recieve a lot of rainfall, any way in which I can save water is a positive. Thank you for your advice.

You can use lava rock as well. Serves the same purpose. No need to crush it though. You can buy it directly since lava rock is sold in different sizes. That is in fact what I have planned for my next scape. I just got myself 10kg of 0.5-1mm lava rock a month ago and will be using it to raise rocks and substrate.

That is good to know. I had seen it available in smaller sizes, but where I'm from, it's usually more expensive. How thick would you layer it?

 

[colley614@]

I think I might be guilty of having spent too much money on a test kit. Thank you for your suggestion. If you only do a 50% water change when your levels max out, does that mean you do less water changes? If so, does this have any detrimental effect on your plants? I'm quite curious to know if you have had much success with this, as I live in an area where we don't receive much rain. Any way to save water is a bonus.

I've never really had an issue cycling this way. I used to do the old school fishless cycle, daily dosing ammonia from a bottle and doing large daily water changes but the owner of my local shop once said "The problem with your technique is you could be cycling enough bacteria to house a tank full of large fish when you plan on keeping the tank lightly stocked." So, I kind of eased off the amount of work I did while cycling and worked off my test kits. The thing I've found over the years is there are loads of aquarium hobbyists out there and a lot of different opinions. I've never really worried about have plants in during cycling and I've never come across anything that has made me think I should be worried. If there is the possibility of plants being harmed during the cycling process, I'd be interested to know more myself.

 

[_Maq_]

After the 6 weeks do you test the water? How do you know it has been cycled?

A few years ago I've run quite a many tests on this topic. No matter what I did, the nitrogen cycling was over in less than 45 days. To be on the safe side, I do a big WC before planting, and at least one another during the days immediately following planting. Testing for ammonia & nitrites is a good thing, to be sure, but there are many more harmful substances which you get rid of by WC only. (Filtration through activated carbon is useful, but not safe enough during those "stormy" days.)

Do you just run the filter during this time?

One of the things I've learnt during those tests was that whatever filter I used or no filter at all made no difference. It was these tests which told me that all those big filters with wonderful media for biofiltration are for no good. Since then, I perform no biofiltration (see my signature).
What I do consider important is to keep water moving and well-oxygenated. Almost all harmful substances are products of anaerobic decomposition. Oxidation makes most of them instantly harmless.

Would it be beneficial to run the heater as well, as I would have thought this would help with bacterial growth.

Not necessary. But yes, your question makes sense. Microbes are sensitive to temperature, and it sounds logical that all those sequences would pass faster in warmer environment. However, temperature change may bring instability in both ways, i.e. including decreased temperature. Therefore, I'd recommend to maintain the same temperature you're planning to keep long-term, after cycling.

 

[_Maq_]

I've never really worried about have plants in during cycling and I've never come across anything that has made me think I should be worried.

People tend to fear ammonia spikes. With due respect to their experience, I have my doubts about it. Firstly, I believe that plants are not that sensitive to ammonia. Secondly, when explaining problems with plants in new tanks, I believe the matter is much more complex than just "ammonia".

 

[Aly14]

I've never really had an issue cycling this way. I used to do the old school fishless cycle, daily dosing ammonia from a bottle and doing large daily water changes but the owner of my local shop once said "The problem with your technique is you could be cycling enough bacteria to house a tank full of large fish when you plan on keeping the tank lightly stocked." So, I kind of eased off the amount of work I did while cycling and worked off my test kits. The thing I've found over the years is there are loads of aquarium hobbyists out there and a lot of different opinions. I've never really worried about have plants in during cycling and I've never come across anything that has made me think I should be worried. If there is the possibility of plants being harmed during the cycling process, I'd be interested to know more myself.

I find it really interesting that there seems to be no consensus on which method to use. Nearly every time I read one particular method, there is someone else debating the merits of it. As someone with no experience it can make starting pretty daunting. I really appreciate you sharing your experience. It has given me a lot to think about.

A few years ago I've run quite a many tests on this topic. No matter what I did, the nitrogen cycling was over in less than 45 days. To be on the safe side, I do a big WC before planting, and at least one another during the days immediately following planting. Testing for ammonia & nitrites is a good thing, to be sure, but there are many more harmful substances which you get rid of by WC only. (Filtration through activated carbon is useful, but not safe enough during those "stormy" days.)

When you say you do a big WC before planting, is this the 80% you mentioned previously, or do you remove more than that? If there is no harm in testing, I think I would like to test a few times weekly. Being new to the hobby I am curious to see how conditions change. Also I spent a lot of money on the tests, I may as well use them.

W

One of the things I've learnt during those tests was that whatever filter I used or no filter at all made no difference. It was these tests which told me that all those big filters with wonderful media for biofiltration are for no good. Since then, I perform no biofiltration (see my signature).
What I do consider important is to keep water moving and well-oxygenated. Almost all harmful substances are products of anaerobic decomposition. Oxidation makes most of them instantly harmless

Would you suggest getting an air stone to help keep the water moving? Or would the air flow from the filter be sufficient?

Not necessary. But yes, your question makes sense. Microbes are sensitive to temperature, and it sounds logical that all those sequences would pass faster in warmer environment. However, temperature change may bring instability in both ways, i.e. including decreased temperature. Therefore, I'd recommend to maintain the same temperature you're planning to keep long-term, after cycling.

That sounds like a good idea. It makes sense to keep the tank at the same temperature as it will be when it's all set up.

 

[colley614@]

I find it really interesting that there seems to be no consensus on which method to use. Nearly every time I read one particular method, there is someone else debating the merits of it. As someone with no experience it can make starting pretty daunting. I really appreciate you sharing your experience. It has given me a lot to think about.

Owning an aquarium is like being in fight club.

The first rule of Fish Club is: You’re doing it wrong. The second rule of Fish Club is: You’re doing it wrong. Third rule of Fish Club: Something yells "Stop!", goes limp, taps out, the tank is over. Fourth rule: Only one guy to a tank. Fifth rule: One tank at a time, fellas. Sixth rule: No shirts with sleeves. Seventh rule: Tanks will go on as long as they must. And the eighth and final rule: If this is your first tank at Fish Club, you have to fight.

Jokes aside, no 2 aquariums are the same. No one has the same water. No two fish are the same or plants. Because of this, every experience is different.