Cycling confusion

[colley614@]

People tend to fear ammonia spikes. With due respect to their experience, I have my doubts about it. Firstly, I believe that plants are not that sensitive to ammonia. Secondly, when explaining problems with plants in new tanks, I believe the matter is much more complex than just "ammonia".

I was taught never to fear Ammonia with regards to plants, obviously with fish. But even then, I was told less so with lower Ph. That has always been the theory behind my logic.

Yeah, the thing with new tanks and cycling is (in my opinion.) The theory is Ammonia>Nitrite>Nitrate>Done. Where experience has taught me Ammonia>Nitrite>Nitrate with possible fluctuations in Ph and Kh>Diatoms>Possible green algae outbreak>Possible Cyano outbreak.

From what I have read of your posts, you seem to have similar opinions with regards to keeping aquariums.

 

[Aly14]

Owning an aquarium is like being in fight club.

The first rule of Fish Club is: You’re doing it wrong. The second rule of Fish Club is: You’re doing it wrong. Third rule of Fish Club: Something yells "Stop!", goes limp, taps out, the tank is over. Fourth rule: Only one guy to a tank. Fifth rule: One tank at a time, fellas. Sixth rule: No shirts with sleeves. Seventh rule: Tanks will go on as long as they must. And the eighth and final rule: If this is your first tank at Fish Club, you have to fight.

Jokes aside, no 2 aquariums are the same. No one has the same water. No two fish are the same or plants. Because of this, every experience is different.

I love your analogy. It possibly explains why I can't find 2 protocols that are the same. Coming from a science background, where our protocols/methods need to be reproducible, I have found it all a bit perplexing.

I think you might be onto something as to why different methods work for different people. What I'm starting to realise is I need to get into the ring, take on board all that I have learnt, and to roll with the punches.

I was taught never to fear Ammonia with regards to plants, obviously with fish. But even then, I was told less so with lower Ph. That has always been the theory behind my logic.

Yeah, the thing with new tanks and cycling is (in my opinion.) The theory is Ammonia>Nitrite>Nitrate>Done. Where experience has taught me Ammonia>Nitrite>Nitrate with possible fluctuations in Ph and Kh>Diatoms>Possible green algae outbreak>Possible Cyano outbreak.

From what I have read of your posts, you seem to have similar opinions with regards to keeping aquariums.

I think what you're saying is I need to put the theory into practice. Theory can only take you so far, you need experience to be able to know how to make adjustments for any curve ball that is thrown your way.

I guess you can do everything by the book, and something unexpected can still happen. I'm glad everyone in this thread has made me aware of this. If I do encounter anything unexpected, I hope I will have the tools to be able to troubleshoot it.

 

[foxfish]

Dark starts may well work for some folk but, if my tank was in a prominent position in my house like in my lounge, then there is no way I would waste six weeks of my life looking at a blanket coved tank. (Not to mention the wife's opinion)
Have you considered a dry start, a lot more interesting to watch!
Are you going for a C02 injected tank?

 

[colley614@]

I love your analogy. It possibly explains why I can't find 2 protocols that are the same. Coming from a science background, where our protocols/methods need to be reproducible, I have found it all a bit perplexing.

I think you might be onto something as to why different methods work for different people. What I'm starting to realise is I need to get into the ring, take on board all that I have learnt, and to roll with the punches.

Yeah, I studied sciences at university so I can understand the frustration with there being no one straight answer. And what I've learned is most people are having success at different levels. I do think that a lot of the advice on the internet is just urban legend, a lot of groups become an echo chamber just repeating the same advice like drones.

I've learned that aquarium keeping, especially online, is similar to the dunning krugar. People turn up overwhelmed, people give advice and the person either sticks around and absorbs the information or they take off somewhere else to look for the confirmation bias and validation they were after. After a certain period the person learning decides they are an 'expert' and won't listen to anybody else because everyone else is doing it wrong and starts letting everybody know. I find eventually, they stumble upon someone who shatters their paradigm and then they realise all they have under their belt is a theory and they start to listen to others. For me, it was when I visited this guy near me probably about 20 years ago and he had this massive aquarium with a stunning Asian Arowana and these massive Black Diamond Stingrays. While we were chatting away he told me he had never used dechlorinator and automatically I nearly blurted out "You're doing it wrong." Then I remembered he'd managed to keep thousands of £ worth of fish healthy for years so there must be something working against My beliefs. I still use dechlorinator myself, but it made me realise something must be working.

I also think a lot of advice may appear contradictory but the end results will achieve the same. I definitely think in our hobby a solid water change routine is key. Especially when first starting out as it resets the system and gives a solid base to work from . I've never had as much success as when I've been doing frequent large water changes. If my maintenance slips, my aquarium usually starts to slip.

Pick a method you like, run with it. Keep an eye on things and adjust when needed.

 

[Aly14]

Dark starts may well work for some folk but, if my tank was in a prominent position in my house like in my lounge, then there is no way I would waste six weeks of my life looking at a blanket coved tank. (Not to mention the wife's opinion)
Have you considered a dry start, a lot more interesting to watch!
Are you going for a C02 injected tank?

My plan is to have my tank in my living room, so it will be in a prominent position. Having a covered tank so visible is something I have considered. I'm really not sure my OCD will allow me to stare at it for weeks. My cats will probably also view it as another bed, which I am hoping to avoid.
I have heard people talk about a dry start, but I haven't really looked into it. How does it work, and what are the advantages of using it?
I have no plans for CO2 at the moment. I'm opting for low tech plants. Once I become a little more confident/familiar what planted tanks, it will definitely be something I consider.

Yeah, I studied sciences at university so I can understand the frustration with there being no one straight answer. And what I've learned is most people are having success at different levels. I do think that a lot of the advice on the internet is just urban legend, a lot of groups become an echo chamber just repeating the same advice like drones.

I've learned that aquarium keeping, especially online, is similar to the dunning krugar. People turn up overwhelmed, people give advice and the person either sticks around and absorbs the information or they take off somewhere else to look for the confirmation bias and validation they were after. After a certain period the person learning decides they are an 'expert' and won't listen to anybody else because everyone else is doing it wrong and starts letting everybody know. I find eventually, they stumble upon someone who shatters their paradigm and then they realise all they have under their belt is a theory and they start to listen to others. For me, it was when I visited this guy near me probably about 20 years ago and he had this massive aquarium with a stunning Asian Arowana and these massive Black Diamond Stingrays. While we were chatting away he told me he had never used dechlorinator and automatically I nearly blurted out "You're doing it wrong." Then I remembered he'd managed to keep thousands of £ worth of fish healthy for years so there must be something working against My beliefs. I still use dechlorinator myself, but it made me realise something must be working.

I also think a lot of advice may appear contradictory but the end results will achieve the same. I definitely think in our hobby a solid water change routine is key. Especially when first starting out as it resets the system and gives a solid base to work from . I've never had as much success as when I've been doing frequent large water changes. If my maintenance slips, my aquarium usually starts to slip.

Pick a method you like, run with it. Keep an eye on things and adjust when needed.

There is so much misinformation on the internet. It can be difficult for a newcomer to discern what information to take on board. I like to absorb as much information as possible, and in doing so, hopefully connect some dots, that will allow me to come up with a plan that will work for me.

I have noticed that a lot of people appear to be very confident in their ideas, and are resistant to listening to other viewpoints. I thought using a dechlorinator was something everyone agreed upon. I find it really interesting that someone can essentially throw away the rule books, and do it their own way, and have success. It has really opened my eyes to the idea that not everything is black and white. I think the best path going forward is to see all the shades of grey, and be adaptable and open to change.

I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom with me. I think I'm coming closer to a plan of attack.

 

[AlecF]

The most likely point of agreement is: time. If you allow time and add the right things, whether less or more of them, primarily plants and oxygen, then things resolve. When we begin we read so much chatter about cycling, but most of it is really about ways to rush a natural process. As for ammonia, Maq, I have seen a surge caused by decaying food make a Cory very poorly, and a WC make it better. Sometimes the main use for testing is to keep your interest in that early period, when you feel impatient. You will never regret taking time, if you can force yourself to. Whether you want to try the various "dark, dry, whatever" starts isn't the point, to me, it's about finding a way to steel your own patience. What helps is to try and understand the natural process, and allow it. Time.

 

[colley614@]

There is so much misinformation on the internet. It can be difficult for a newcomer to discern what information to take on board. I like to absorb as much information as possible, and in doing so, hopefully connect some dots, that will allow me to come up with a plan that will work for me.

I have noticed that a lot of people appear to be very confident in their ideas, and are resistant to listening to other viewpoints. I thought using a dechlorinator was something everyone agreed upon. I find it really interesting that someone can essentially throw away the rule books, and do it their own way, and have success. It has really opened my eyes to the idea that not everything is black and white. I think the best path going forward is to see all the shades of grey, and be adaptable and open to change.

I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom with me. I think I'm coming closer to a plan of attack.

Yeah, what I suppose I'm trying to convey is don't put anything on a pedestal.

The most likely point of agreement is: time. If you allow time and add the right things, whether less or more of them, primarily plants and oxygen, then things resolve. When we begin we read so much chatter about cycling, but most of it is really about ways to rush a natural process. As for ammonia, Maq, I have seen a surge caused by decaying food make a Cory very poorly, and a WC make it better. Sometimes the main use for testing is to keep your interest in that early period, when you feel impatient. You will never regret taking time, if you can force yourself to. Whether you want to try the various "dark, dry, whatever" starts isn't the point, to me, it's about finding a way to steel your own patience. What helps is to try and understand the natural process, and allow it. Time.

Totally agree! Mike Paletta once said "Nothing good happens in an aquarium fast. Bad things can happen overnight and we need to be ready to deal with it. But, good things take time." That stuck with me.

 

[foxfish]

There is no doubt that different folk have different ways to achieve the same goal!
The dry start is something you might want to study, there are hundreds of examples on this forum, you will find using Google with your search question and add UKAPS (forum abbreviation) will help you find the answers about the dry start method.

 

[Aly14]

The most likely point of agreement is: time. If you allow time and add the right things, whether less or more of them, primarily plants and oxygen, then things resolve. When we begin we read so much chatter about cycling, but most of it is really about ways to rush a natural process. As for ammonia, Maq, I have seen a surge caused by decaying food make a Cory very poorly, and a WC make it better. Sometimes the main use for testing is to keep your interest in that early period, when you feel impatient. You will never regret taking time, if you can force yourself to. Whether you want to try the various "dark, dry, whatever" starts isn't the point, to me, it's about finding a way to steel your own patience. What helps is to try and understand the natural process, and allow it. Time.

I love that. Most good things in life often take time. From what I have read, planted aquariums are not the exemption. I do quite like the aesthetic of just plants and hardscape, so I hope that will keep my impatience at bay. I really don't want to mess anything up because I decided to rush a process. I will definitely keep in mind the importance of time.

There is no doubt that different folk have different ways to achieve the same goal!
The dry start is something you might want to study, there are hundreds of examples on this forum, you will find using Google with your search question and add UKAPS (forum abbreviation) will help you find the answers about the dry start method.

Thank you for your suggestion, and advice on where to look. I think I have just found my new topic to research.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The dark start does make a lot of sense. I have been tempted to give it a go, but I don't know if my patience will hold out. I haven't been able to find a lot of information on, which makes me feel less confident in trying it.

Have a look at <"3 week into cycling my tank."> and I'll add in @Cor.

I've never really had an issue cycling this way. I used to do the old school fishless cycle, daily dosing ammonia from a bottle and doing large daily water changes but the owner of my local shop once said "The problem with your technique is you could be cycling enough bacteria to house a tank full of large fish when you plan on keeping the tank lightly stocked."

I think your LFS is right and you only need ammonia based cycling in the <"Mbuna scenario"> - <Who needs a tank for a dark start…. Let’s see.">.

Have a look at <"Seasoned Tank Time">, it is a version of <"plant and wait">, which is literally that plant and once the plants are in active growth you tank is "cycled".

I have read numerous forums, and online information, and all I have found is conflicting information. Which has lead to a lot of confusion.

That is a real issue. The advantage we have is that we are planted tank keepers and we have <"talked to some of the researchers in this field"> - <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I find it really interesting that there seems to be no consensus on which method to use.

One of the "problems" with "plant and wait" is that nobody <"makes any money out of it">. I have to apologise to @Miss-Pepper, but this is what I really think - <"Bedside Aquarium">.

I have (tongue-in-cheek) thought about <"monetising some options"> (links below). I think the bird has flown with the <"Duckweed Index">, but "Secret Ingredient Soup" might still work.

• <"NA Style ADA 60P">.
• <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">.

cheers Darrel

 

[colley614@]

Hi all,

Have a look at <"3 week into cycling my tank."> and I'll add in @Cor.

I think your LFS is right and you only need ammonia based cycling in the <"Mbuna scenario"> - <Who needs a tank for a dark start…. Let’s see.">.

Have a look at <"Seasoned Tank Time">, it is a version of <"plant and wait">, which is literally that plant and once the plants are in active growth you tank is "cycled".

That is a real issue. The advantage we have is that we are planted tank keepers and we have <"talked to some of the researchers in this field"> - <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">.

cheers Darrel

Hi @dw1305 ,

I've just read a few of your posts and I think we sing from the same hymn sheet.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I think we sing from the same hymn sheet......... I do think that a lot of the advice on the internet is just urban legend, a lot of groups become an echo chamber just repeating the same advice like drones.

Yes, I think the problem is just getting the <"wider fish keeping community"> to join the choir. The problem for people is separating the <"coffee from the froth"> or the <"wheat from the chaff">. I <"have tried">, but it hasn't always <"gone very well for me">.

Yeah, I studied sciences at university so I can understand the frustration with there being no one straight answer. And what I've learned is most people are having success at different levels.

I honestly think that <"being a scientist"> is a great advantage.

I've been a <"truly terrible fishkeeper"> (and I'm <"a pretty poor scientist as well">), but I've got better, some of that improvement is just more experience, but a lot of it is finding methods that make aquariums more <"robust and stable">, and a lot of <"that knowledge"> has <"come via my job"> and scientific training.

cheers Darrel

 

[colley614@]

Hi all,

Yes, I think the problem is just getting the <"wider fish keeping community"> to join the choir. The problem for people is separating the <"coffee from the froth"> or the <"wheat from the chaff">. I <"have tried">, but it hasn't always <"gone very well for me">.

I honestly think that <"being a scientist"> is a great advantage.

I've been a <"truly terrible fishkeeper"> (and I'm <"a pretty poor scientist as well">), but I've got better, some of that improvement is just more experience, but a lot of it is finding methods that make aquariums more <"robust and stable">, and a lot of <"that knowledge"> has <"come via my job"> and scientific training.

cheers Darrel

If I'm honest, the owner of a shop not too far from me put the hobby into perspective for me. He told me that the people who fundamentally understand fish keeping are few and far between. Most of his customers are people who walk in, buy a tank, cycle it, put a few red fish in then neglect their tanks for a few months. Feel guilty, do a water change for a few weeks, decide they want a blue fish and return to the shop. Disappear for a few months, before coming back for a plant and some food.

 

[_Maq_]

Would you suggest getting an air stone to help keep the water moving? Or would the air flow from the filter be sufficient?

I've made rather discouraging experience about air stones. Firstly, they tend to get clogged in time. Secondly, they are noisy. Thirdly, I was unlucky with air pumps, even good brands (Eheim) - they are noisy. I prefer venturi. That, too, is rather noisy. Some people use sprinkling ramps with good results. If you hate any noise, you can arrange your filter outflow so as to make both the water column and surface moving. That's enough in most instances. But the surface and water column should be definitely moving.

Owning an aquarium is like being in fight club.

Not necessarily so. I like this forum a.o. because here, different approaches are largely tolerated.

Coming from a science background, where our protocols/methods need to be reproducible, I have found it all a bit perplexing.

An aquarium is a system way too complex to "calculate" its behaviour in advance. But steadily approximating to a "perfect" tank is, in my opinion, the thing that makes our hobby so thrilling.

I do think that a lot of the advice on the internet is just urban legend

It surely is. And things are even worse, because the core of it is hidden advertising.
Yet on this forum, there are people here with more or less scientific background. And years of experience. The risk of reading an outright nonsense here is therefore diminished.

I have no plans for CO2 at the moment.

To inject or not to inject, that is the key decision. With CO2, almost everything is different.
I think it's important not to follow high-tech methods while establishing a low-tech tank. People usually overdo. They have been persuaded that plants need nutrient rich substrate, over-priced fertilizers, spectrally advanced lighting, microbial inoculations, massive filters with expensive media, and so forth. All such things may be useful in certain situations in the hands of an experienced aquarist, yet as a rule, it's a waste of hopes and money. The greatest lie of all is perhaps the colonization area.

As for ammonia, Maq, I have seen a surge caused by decaying food make a Cory very poorly, and a WC make it better.

Well, many substances evolve from anaerobically decaying fish food. Cyanides and (organo)sulfides are more toxic than ammonia, and the list goes on.

 

[Andy Pierce]

Would you suggest getting an air stone to help keep the water moving? Or would the air flow from the filter be sufficient?

Use the right tool for the job. An airstone has benefits including putting oxygen into the water and disrupting surface biofilm by popping bubbles, but an airstone won't move water very effectively on its own. If you want to move water, you need to get something that actually moves water - a powerhead or a pump, etc.

 

[colley614@]

Not necessarily so. I like this forum a.o. because here, different approaches are largely tolerated.

I noticed that very quickly about this forum, and it made me want to join and start posting. I've been on the look out for a while for a forum of people who have a genuine depth of knowledge and experience, who's brain I could pick and hopefully offer the same.

It's a lot better than that last group I joined, plenty o fish. That place is just false advertising. Not one of those women seem to own an aquarium!

 

[Aly14]

Hi all,

Have a look at <"3 week into cycling my tank."> and I'll add in @Cor.

I think your LFS is right and you only need ammonia based cycling in the <"Mbuna scenario"> - <Who needs a tank for a dark start…. Let’s see.">.

Have a look at <"Seasoned Tank Time">, it is a version of <"plant and wait">, which is literally that plant and once the plants are in active growth you tank is "cycled".

That is a real issue. The advantage we have is that we are planted tank keepers and we have <"talked to some of the researchers in this field"> - <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">.

cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel, thank you for all the useful links. It has given me much to think about. I'm hoping to make a start on getting my tank going in the next 1-2weeks. Before then, I am trying to accumulate as much information as possible, to try and make a somewhat educated decision on what method to use. I am so glad I have found this forum. Everyone has been really supportive and have offered some great advice. It has really helped to clear up some of my confusion.

I'm now at a stage where I'm torn between doing a dark start or cycling with plants. The dark start sounds like a safer method, particularly as I will be using ADA AS. However, my tank will be sitting in my living room for everyone to see. Having a covered tank for 6 weeks is a disadvantage for me. My cats also view anything covered in a blanket as a comfy new bed. Trying to keep them off it, will probably prove troublesome.

Cycling with plants does sound appealing, however I am worried about my plants melting. If I do frequent water changes, and use a large percentage of hardy stem plants, would this help mitigate this risk?

I really want my plants to thrive, so I guess at the end of the day, I would be more inclined to do the method that is best for them. What would you recommend in my situation?

I've made rather discouraging experience about air stones. Firstly, they tend to get clogged in time. Secondly, they are noisy. Thirdly, I was unlucky with air pumps, even good brands (Eheim) - they are noisy. I prefer venturi. That, too, is rather noisy. Some people use sprinkling ramps with good results. If you hate any noise, you can arrange your filter outflow so as to make both the water column and surface moving. That's enough in most instances. But the surface and water column should be definitely moving

That is good to know. My LFS said airstones were not necessary, and in some instances can create problems. He also seemed to think my filter would provide enough surface movement. It's reassuring to know that he has provided me with some good advice. I haven't actually heard of sprinkling ramps. I'll have a look into them, and see if they would provide any benefits for my tank.

An aquarium is a system way too complex to "calculate" its behaviour in advance. But steadily approximating to a "perfect" tank is, in my opinion, the thing that makes our hobby so thrilling

This is something that I am coming to realise. It's really useful to know for a newcomer. I'm hoping it will allow me to be more in tune with my tank, and be better equipped to make necessary changes if needed.

Use the right tool for the job. An airstone has benefits including putting oxygen into the water and disrupting surface biofilm by popping bubbles, but an airstone won't move water very effectively on its own. If you want to move water, you need to get something that actually moves water - a powerhead or a pump, etc.

Hi Andy, thanks for your advice. I'll have more of a look into the other options that are out there.

 

[LMuhlen]

The dark start is a way for you to get passed the more chaotic days of the setup period without worrying about triggering algae. But in my experience, not having the tank lights on was enough, no need for a blanket. Also, two weeks is probably enough if you are in a hurry, it is still two weeks safer than having the lights on from day one. It doesn’t need to be planting on day one vs planting after months, everything in between exists and the benefits are proportional to how long you wait. That’s how I see it, anyways.

 

[erwin123]

Here's a tip to speed up cycling. Buy some weed-like stem plants first. Fill a 20 litre bucket of water. dump the plants into the bucket, letting them float is fine (more access to CO2 at the surface)

Cycling with plants does sound appealing, however I am worried about my plants melting. If I do frequent water changes, and use a large percentage of hardy stem plants, would this help mitigate this risk?

Nutrient removal by Rotala rotundifolia: a superior candidate for ecosystem remediation at low temperatures

Temperature is an extremely important factor affecting the nutrient (mainly nitrogen and phosphorus) removal of aquatic macrophytes. A novel submersed Rotala rotundifolia was separately cultivated at room and low temperatures to investigate its ability ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Have a look at some material of using aquatic plants for phytoremediation . These plants are so tough scientists are more worried that these plants are unkillable and become an invasive species