EI dosing please help

dw1305

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Hi all,
From my reading around recently dont think I really need to add that much MgSO4 if any !!!
You probably still need to add some magnesium, it isn't only the total amount in the water that is important, it is too do with the amount of calcium (Ca++) ions as well.

Some plants will begin to show magnesium deficiency symptoms when the Ca++:Mg++ gets near ~30:1, so you aren't far short of that. Adding some more magnesium doesn't really have any down-side.

Even the 127 mg L-1 of calcium quoted isn't really the whole story, it is just reflects the amount of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) that will go into solution in equilibrium with 400ppm of atmospheric CO2. <"My tap water"> would have a very similar value, in fact all water from limestone aquifers will have similar values, and will have a huge reserve of <"carbonate buffering"> as well.

cheers Darrel
 

Zeus.

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Some plants will begin to show magnesium deficiency symptoms when the Ca++:Mg++ gets near ~30:1, so you aren't far short of that. Adding some more magnesium doesn't really have any down-side.

Good to here:thumbup: was thinking what the levels of Mg was for a downside, by my calculations my Mg levels are presently about 15ppm but have been as high as 20ppm which should put the ratio of Ca++:Mg++ well below 30:1
 

Alex white

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Hello might be being a bit slow here so I now have my profito. I need to dose this every other day. And my macros the days in between. So the label says 10ml per 100 litres my tank being 125 litres I need to ad 12 ml per week so I should just split this measurement in to 3 days? Or do I need to add more? Also my macro is 10ml per 50 litres salts from co2 art
 

Oldguy

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Seachem Iron
I assume Seachem Iron is chelated and your mico mix is not. Could be the Gp II ions in your tank had a field day kicking out your transition metal ions from their chelating ligands. Under moderate (around 7 and lower) pH's Fe2+ has a halve life of about 24hrs before it is oxidized to Fe3+ which tends to precipitate out of solution and not really biologically available. My guess is the milky white cloudiness was iron hydroxide on its way to becoming ferric oxide. The oxides of iron are not as straightforward as 'school chemistry' leads us to believe.

I run at a slightly lower pH than you and aim for a guestimate of 0.1ppm Fe, with Fe2+ bleeding out of the EDTA complex even on macro day. [alternate day dosing]. If shrimps live and breed then copper, my proxy for zinc, is not too high.
 

Zeus.

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Done some reading :rolleyes: Understanding Plant Nutrition: Fertilizers And Micronutrients which says


''With iron nutrition, the form of iron is very important. The three common chelated forms (iron-EDDHA, DTPA and EDTA) differ in their ability to hold onto the iron (and therefore keep iron soluble and available to plants) as the media pH increases. Between a media pH of 4.0 to 5.5, any form of iron will work (including iron sulfate) at supplying iron to the plant. However, as the media pH increases above 7.0, only the iron from Iron-EDDHA has high solubility. Research has shown that the ranking of iron forms from most effective to least effective at supplying iron at high media pH is Iron-EDDHA > Iron-DTPA > Iron-EDTA > Iron sulfate. If iron is applied in a form that is not soluble because of high media pH, then most of the nutrient will not be available to plants until media pH is lowered''.

So if my pH is 7.4 day and 8.5+ at night I would be better off with some Fe EDDHA £14.00 per Kg adding to my micro mix !! as Practical pH stability range: 4 – 9 (in aqueous solution).
As going for Fe DTPA £16.00 per Kg has Practical pH stability range: 4 – 7.5 (in aqueous solution).
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
I would be better off with some Fe EDDHA £14.00 per Kg adding to my micro mix !! as Practical pH stability range: 4 – 9 (in aqueous solution).
As going for Fe DTPA £16.00 per Kg has Practical pH stability range: 4 – 7.5 (in aqueous solution).
I think the water goes pink when you use FeEDDHA, but it is a longtime since I've tried it.

Found a thread on UKAPS <"@xim's post">.

If you don't mind the pink tinge that is a good price, and one kilo would last for ever.

cheers Darrel
 

Zeus.

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I think the water goes pink when you use FeEDDHA

That explains why folk dont use it :banghead:

Thanks Darrel your a wealth of great info :thumbup:

Placed an order for the Fe DTPA £16.00 per Kg that covers the postage as well. Plus tank is at 7.4pH for photoperiod and its stable upto 7.5pH.

Just need to source a suitable trace without any iron in as the tanks do seem to go slightly cloudy over the week using a trace mix with Fe EDTA in
 

X3NiTH

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Just need to source a suitable trace without any iron in as the tanks do seem to go slightly cloudy over the week using a trace mix with Fe EDTA in

There is always Flourish Trace, but dosing it to EI levels is costly. Cheapest way to do it is source the individual salts and make your own, if you want to chelate it then source the appropriate base chelate you want to use. I'm Remineralised GH8 KH8 (pH6.4 - 8ish) and dose daily DIY micro (Mn 0.05, Zn 0.04, B 0.03, Mo 0.0015, Cu 0.002, Ni 0.0005 mg/L), Humic/Fulvic FeGluconate (0.1mg/L) and FeDTPA (0.05mg/L).

I never found a chelated trace element salt source without iron in bulk commercial mixes.
 

Zeus.

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I think the water goes pink when you use FeEDDHA, but it is a longtime since I've tried it.


Think I am having this issue as my ADA AS has lost its buffering capacity as it is over 12 months old
quote
Amazonia and pH

Amazonia is originally acidic, with a pH level of 5.0-6.0, and it makes water more acidic. If water change is performed using water with a pH level close to neutral, the pH level of aquarium water gradually increases towards neutral. On the other hand, if alkaline water with a higher pH is used for water change, Amazonia’s function to lower pH level is weakened and this can lead to various adverse effects. Aquatic plants usually perform photosynthesis actively and grow healthy in acidic water with lower pH and carbonate hardness (KH) levels. That is why mildly acidic water realized by the use of Amazonia is suitable for growing aquatic plants. In contrast, in mildly alkaline water with a pH level higher than neutral, aquatic plants do not show active photosynthesis and their growth is slowed. On top of it, mildly alkaline water promotes the leaching of humic acid contained in Amazonia and aquarium water turns to yellow or brown. If the tap water used for water change is around pH 8.0 or high in carbonate hardness, it is recommended to use “be Soft”, an additive effective for lowering pH and carbonate hardness levels, during water change to improve the water quality.
Unquote

Which explains why I'm beginning to see the issue esp with the pH of my tapwater

upload_2019-3-15_17-5-11.png


Plus thats the pH straight out of the tap the pH will also increase when it has degased

Also only just noticed signs of Chlorosis on new plant growth on my Anubis and the leaves a little paler than the old ones with the veins standing out darker and a few holes in the leaves of the new growth too,
upload_2019-3-15_17-20-22.png
quite obvious once you spot it
 

Zeus.

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dose daily DIY micro (Mn 0.05, Zn 0.04, B 0.03, Mo 0.0015, Cu 0.002, Ni 0.0005 mg/L), Humic/Fulvic FeGluconate (0.1mg/L) and FeDTPA (0.05mg/L).

Managed to find most of the trace elements esp the EDTA ones but struggling with Boron and can get Molybdenum as Molybdenum Ammonium Heptamolybdate Pure (NH4)6Mo7O24 Planted Aquarium Fertilizer which is pure so will just add a gram to 100ml to yield a 1% Mo solution to add to the micro mix

Also notice you added a dash of Nickel to your Micro mix as well !

Where did you get you elements from m8 ?
 

X3NiTH

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Sodium Molybdate Dihydrate 98% you can get from APC Pure, also Boric Acid 99-100% which is subject to completion and approval of declaration of use. You can get Manganese II Sulphate there also but it's cheaper from Minerals-Water where you can also get Copper Sulphate Pentahydrate and Zinc Sulphate Heptahydrate. On eBay you can get Nickel II Sulphate Hexahydrate.

For Chloride I use Magnesium Chloride, I use this as part of my remineralisation strategy, Minerals-Water is a great source, you can get Calcium Chloride there also. Other components I use are Magnesium Carbonate, Calcium Carbonate and Potassium Bicarbonate.

:)
 

X3NiTH

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Chelating the trace elements is entirely optional, if you dose daily (like I do into GH/KH8 pH6.4-8 water) then I would say you don't need it as long as you dose the micro when you have max CO₂ before lights on and the pH is below neutral. You really don't need to be adding SodiumEDTA if you can avoid it (you can get PotassiumEDTA but I've yet to find a sensible source for it, it's the preservative used in blood sampling vials).

I should add that when mixing the traces together make sure the RO/DI has been well acidified beforehand or the Zinc Sulphate will precipitate out as Zinc Hydroxide when added and your mix will look like white pulped paper (if you make this mistake and try to reverse the reaction by acidifying after Zinc addition then it will oxidise it into Zinc Oxide and form a black flaky precipitate, I did this so you don't have to!).

:)
 

Zeus.

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Chelating the trace elements is entirely optional, if you dose daily (like I do into GH/KH8 pH6.4-8 water) then I would say you don't need it as long as you dose the micro when you have max CO₂ before lights on and the pH is below neutral

Dont think I much choice with my tap water, tanks lowest pH is 7.4 so chealted traces probably the best option to prevent precipitation, been looking at Solufeed Mn 13 EDTA, Solufeed Zn 14 EDTA and Solufeed Cu 14 EDTA

Many thanks for the Boric acid link:thumbup:

Just after a micro mix with Fe DTPA to suit my Very Hard water which doesnt cost the earth long term, plus if you make the trace yourself you can tweek the individual elements ppm
 

Oldguy

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chealted traces probably the best option
Chelated compounds give a longer shelf life in solution, especially as mixed compounds. I weigh out amounts to make 5 litres of stock solution which is pH adjusted. Then use a 500ml aliquot of the stock solution and dilute to 5 litres to use for tank dosing. Errors in weighing are significantly reduced. Stock bottles are painted black and kept in a cupboard. Never use tap water for these solutions. Macros always use tap water but keep each compound in its own bottle and not that concerned about accuracy in weighing.
 

Zeus.

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One thing I never checked even though I have had a pH meter for some time is check the pH of my tap water after it had been left to degas never felt the need for it :oops:. Quite shocking really. Check my Hanna probe with 7.0pH buffer it was find and it was fine, didnt bother with the 4.0pH buffer and poured a beaker full and in pic above

nearly 8pH but then I left it 24hrs and it then read 9.5pH :eek: wasnt expecting that. Checked the pH on a low tech tank I have with no substrate/rocks/DW 9.6ph. Which makes sense to me retrospectively with the CO2 pH profiles I have done in the past. My Target pH use to be 6.5pH or even lower in the early days, using a pH controller it works till the target is reached and my DC with hindsight always ended up over time (months) going more clear. Well thats because of the the ADA AS losing it buffering capacity OFC. In my potted High tech tank there is even less ADA AS and this is the tank that gets cloudly over the week the most, plants have been struggling in it too when at one time they wasn't.
Always good to find the potential source of a problem, even when the problem is a noob oversight :banghead:.

FeDTPA should arrive next week, I did also order some FeEDDHA which I may use for a short while
 

Oldguy

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Biodegradable alternative Chelate to EDTA out there called IDHA
Thanks for the link and information. Interested in how you get on with it once you have found a supplier. I have a life times supply of the EDTA complexes, unless the wife agrees to a really really big tank.:lol: I think the problem is time scale and lack of photo degradation once in the soil. If memory serves me well hydroponic units UV their discharge effluent to reduce EDTA loading. However chelating compounds have wide uses even in cleaning products.
 

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