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Excess nutrient doesn’t cause algae growth?

Hi @MichaelJ

I want to 'home in' on what is meant by 'stable CO2'. As I mentioned elsewhere, CO2 is normally switched OFF at night and switched ON the following morning. During this time, CO2 concentration will vary/drop. Added to this, lighting level goes from bright light to darkness and back to light again. I don't have access to a data-logging pH meter but that would reveal what happens to pH overnight. But, I think I know of one UKAPS member who does have such a pH meter so I'll PM that member.

JPC

Hi @jaypeecee My participation is a bit sketchy at the moment as I’m down in Arizona visiting the in-laws and going on an excursion for native killifish habitats. It’s very exciting actually. I hope to get some cool pictures to share. The creek we went to yesterday had cichlids!

Cheers,
Michael
 
Hi @John q

Sorry, John. My bwain hurts*. Would you please elaborate on the above? Most of my grey matter is on a 'go-slow'!

* John Cleese in Monty Python's Flying Circus

JPC
Hi Jpc,
Certainly, my suggestion that the scientific evidence is at odds with itself is based on a couple of things. In this study that you linked in a previous thread.
(PDF) Photosynthetic performance of freshwater Rhodophyta in response to temperature, irradiance, pH and diurnal rhythm

It states that these algal types do better in ph 8.5 or 6.5. It then goes on to reference the sheath 1984 article that suggests the occurrence of freshwater red algae is more prevalent when the ph is less than 6.5.
So we have 2 studies suggesting different opinions.

Diana Walstad goes on to say that certain algae are better adapted to alkaline water than aquatic plants.
20220220_070623.jpg


Diana notes that red algae may not have this alkaline advantage, and even suggests that it eventually dies off when placed in her hard water alkaline tanks.

So we have three experts, one suggests red algae thrives in high ph water, another says it dies in a high ph environment, and the last one says it thrives in low ph values. To me this science is at odds with itself.

Yes, treat yourself to a copy of Diana Walstad's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. Then all will be made clear. Fundamentally, it's because aquatic plants don't have the accessory pigments phycoerythrin, phycocyanin and siphonoxanthin.
You've probably already worked out I have a copy of her book.
OK so algae can adapt to certain wavelengths of light better than plants, I've learnt something there.

I think the point I was trying to make is our plants will adapt to the light we give them, and personally think trying to find a particular spectrum of light that favours the plants and not the algae is futile.

Keep up the research John, I genuinely find these posts interesting 👍
 
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Hi all,
OK so algae can adapt to certain wavelengths of light better than plants, I've learnt something there.
This is certainly true of the Red Algae (Rhodophyta) in marine situations on rocky shores, where the lowest occurring photosynthetic organisms are Red Algae. I think this is because the <"phycoerythrin is intercepting the "blue" photons">, after all the other light has been attenuated. If they end up in deep, permanent rock pools they may survive, but tend to bleach of colour. They also are rapidly lost if water quality declines or silt load increases.

You can <"see them"> on the stipes of <"Laminaria hyperborea"> , which is only exposed on the lowest of low spring tides.

o_lamhyp.jpg

I think the point I was trying to make is our plants will adapt to the light we give them, and personally think trying to find a particular spectrum of light that favours the plants and not the algae is futile.
That is my thought, it is the "they are all plants" argument.

I don't have an answer, but I'm personally unconvinced that any of fluctuating dissolved gas levels, too much light, not enough flow etc <"are really the reason">. I keep coming back to this photo, from <"PlanetCatfish: repeat spawning of Dekeyseria picta">.

file-jpg.jpg


cheers Darrel
 
OK so algae can adapt to certain wavelengths of light better than plants, I've learnt something there.
Hi @John q

We need to be more specific than what you stated above - namely, freshwater red algae can use light that cannot be used by aquatic plants. That's simply because plants do not have the accessory pigments that are required to capture these wavelengths. For example, red algae capture light at 565nm using phycoerythrin. This also happens to be the peak response of the human eye. It corresponds to green/yellow.

JPC
 
Hi all,
namely, freshwater red algae can use light that cannot be used by aquatic plants. That's simply because plants do not have the accessory pigments that are required to capture these wavelengths. For example, red algae capture light at 565nm using phycoerythrin.
John, that isn't entirely true, higher plants use that wavelength of light less efficiently, but they can still use it. This is the <"relative quantum efficiency curve for higher plants">.

2-6RelativeQuantumEfficHEIDI.jpg

......... Sometimes one may hear that plants don’t use green light for photosynthesis, they reflect it. However, this is only partly true. While most plants reflect more green than any other in the visible spectrum, a relatively small percentage of green light is transmitted through or reflected by the leaves. The majority of green light is useful in photosynthesis. The relative quantum efficiency curve (Photo 1) shows how efficiently plants use wavelengths between 300 and 800 nm. Green light is the least efficiently used color of light in the visible spectrum......

I'd see the situation of light as similar to the situation of the <"one-legged Irishman"> in the <"all day buffet"> with regard to nitrification and plant uptake of fixed nitrogen. If a resource is available evolution will find a way to make use of it.

cheers Darrel
 
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I don't have an answer, but I'm personally unconvinced that any of fluctuating dissolved gas levels, too much light, not enough flow etc <"are really the reason">. I keep coming back to this photo, from <"PlanetCatfish: repeat spawning of Dekeyseria picta">.
Hi @dw1305

But that's the dilemma, isn't it? In the absence of any conclusive response to the topic of this thread and the question, how do we minimize/eliminate unsightly algae from our tanks, my view is that we need to methodically eliminate all the potential candidates. And we're not there yet.

JPC
 
Hi all,
In the absence of any conclusive response to the topic of this thread and the question
Agreed, we have a <"number of threads">, but we don't have <"all / any of the answers">. I understand that people (and probably particularly scientists like yourself) will want to identify and isolate all the factors that govern algal growth, but I'm not <"sure it is possible"> and that searching for the <"magic bullet"> is just likely to lead to us going around, and around, in ever diminishing circles.

I'm both a pretty <"shoddy scientist"> and a pretty shoddy planted tank keeper, so I'm always willing to take the <"path of least resistance">, which me is to keep Ramshorn Snails and over time they will reduce the growth of BBA in all the places <"that they can graze">.

cheers Darrel
 
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Unfortunately, Table X-4 does not include any red algae.
I never said it did. What's your thoughts on red algae and ph? Sorry but I need to pin you down on this.
We need to be more specific than what you stated above - namely, freshwater red algae can use light that cannot be used by aquatic plants.
I'm being quite specific that light spectrum plays no part with regards to algae in our tanks. As you are a the proposer that it does I suggest you need to tell me a light spectrum that will grow plants and starve algae. Let me know and I'll gladly put it to the test.
 
Hi all,
I'm being quite specific that light spectrum plays no part with regards to algae in our tanks. As you are a the proposer that it does I suggest you need to tell me a light spectrum that will grow plants and starve algae. Let me know and I'll gladly put it to the test.
That is the one, it is back to <"Karl Popper">. If some-one produces a repeatable (by other researchers) experiment that shows that the <"speed of light in a vacuum">, (or <"absolute zero">) isn't absolute, then we need a new theory.
...........the criterion of the scientific status of a theory is its falsifiability, or refutability, or testability......
Away from the physical sciences you can still apply Popper's rule. It was <"J. B. S Haldane"> who, when asked "what evidence could destroy his confidence in the theory of evolution " replied <"Fossil rabbits in the Pre-Cambrian">.

cheers Darrel
 
I agree with Darrel, it’s going to be difficult to find conditions that favor the plants we like, but not the ones we don’t like. If you add to that mix the fishes’ requirements, you can be painted into a bit of a corner.

I tend to tolerate some amount of BBA in my tanks, and no longer see it as a sign that something is “wrong.” In cases where it bothers me aesthetically, the only thing that has gotten rid of it is algicides. I always keep ramshorns unintentionally, as they tend to arrive with my plants. But usually that just means i see their tracks in the green algae. They don’t wipe their plates clean. :)
 
What's your thoughts on red algae and ph? Sorry but I need to pin you down on this.
I'm being quite specific that light spectrum plays no part with regards to algae in our tanks. As you are a the proposer that it does I suggest you need to tell me a light spectrum that will grow plants and starve algae. Let me know and I'll gladly put it to the test.
Hi @John q

I've just spotted these 'requests' having not had much time on UKAPS recently due to ill health. Let me re-visit this and I'll try to get back to you in due course. In the meantime, you may be interested in looking at other updates I've made on one of the other BBA threads. This should be it:


JPC
 
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