Having trouble keeping phosphate up

[Jose]

So you dont really know how much you are dosing? Or did you make the solutions as per EI instructions/ammounts?
Also if phosphates were low youd most probably see green spot algae. Is this the casE?

 

[jsiegmund]

I do know for the macro's. I'm dosing 22.50 ppm NO3 and 2 ppm PO4. The solutions are 1ppm / 100L (NO3) and 0.1 ppm / 100L (PO4) so I've calculated the number of milliliters per day to match the desired dosage in ppm. That's 7 vs 6. For the micro's, I'm doing almost double the recommended dosage. As that stuff just comes in the form I'm using it, there's not that much I can change about it apart from increasing or decreasing the number of milliliters per day.

Green spot algae is there, yes. Forms on the windows and rocks mostly. If I don't clean the windows, they become pretty dirty after two weeks or so.

 

[Jose]

Then your answer is to just dose more phosphates as said before. Dont make the hobby a pain for yourself.

 

[jsiegmund]

Haha, certainly not. But if I read the other comments, dosing more phosphates won't do any good as EI dosing should be sufficient. So I'd like to hear what the other guys will say about this.

 

[Jose]

Haha, certainly not. But if I read the other comments, dosing more phosphates won't do any good as EI dosing should be sufficient. So I'd like to hear what the other guys will say about this.

in most cases it wont.....

 

[ian_m]

Also seen people roll their own EI mixes and doses, usually missing the cheapest ingredient, MgSO4 out as they have hard water so must have Mg in it so no need to use MgSO4. Wrong.

Where is your Mg dose coming from ??? That is an essential part of EI dosing. I feel my quote above if the issue.

 

[roadmaster]

Believe Mg is in his trace .

 

[ian_m]

Believe Mg is in his trace .

Then he is not using EI, despite stating he is.

Please dose EI.

I suspect Mg deficiency. Mg in form of MgSO4, it is the cheapest of EI ingredients, yet time and time and time and time again, people miss it out and suffer all types of plant issues. You cannot over dose Mg.

Also seen people roll their own EI mixes and doses, usually missing the cheapest ingredient, MgSO4 out as they have hard water so must have Mg in it so no need to use MgSO4. Wrong.

Taken a while to get there, but I suspect Mg issues.

 

[roadmaster]

Mg in trace for EI if using CSM+B.

 

[jsiegmund]

Then he is not using EI, despite stating he is.

What I actually stated was:

But still, Ferrdrakon is also perceived as a very good source of nutrients for plants. That one is dosed after lights off, 6ml / day (= 42ml / week). Recommended is 25ml / week for a tank my size. I must admit that I haven't translated these values to EI and wouldn't exactly know how to do so.

So EI on the macro's, "I'm not quite sure" on the micros. And since that's just off-the-shelve, I cannot change the mix. I can increase the dose or switch to using something different instead. I'm using this stuff because it was recommended to me.

But then would you agree switching to KramerDrak would solve the issue? Magnesium in Ferrdrakon vs Kramerdrak = 750 mg/l vs 3,440 mg/l. Drak specifies 10ml / week for medium lighting and 12ml / week for high lighting (on 100L). More than 15ml / week would be useless. So what if I switch out my Ferrdrakon for Kamerdrak and go with 12ml / week? Agreed that this would provide enough nutricients to remove any deficiencies there might be?

Contents of Kramerdrak:

20,980 mg/l potassium, 3,440 mg/l magnesium, 1,875 mg/l iron, 715 mg/l manganese, 92 mg/l copper, 80 mg/l zinc, 70 mg/l boron, 43 mg/l molybdenum, 25 mg/l cobalt, 6.6 mg/l lithium, 6.5 mg/l vanadium, 6.3 mg/l aluminium, 6.3 mg/l nickel, 6 mg/l selenium, 5.3 mg/l tin, EDTA, HEEDTA, DTPA, NTA, ascorbic acid, methyl paraben, benzoic acid

 

[ian_m]

So EI on the macro's,

No its not. You are not dosing EI.

A quick EI calculation of mix contents, 1 litre of EI solution up the Mg in this solution is over 7000mg/l (70gr x (molar mass of Mg)/(molar mass of MgSO4.7H2O))

Similar lower levels of K as well. This is not EI.

You have made the assumption your ferts are EI doses, they are not. You will have plant issues.

 

[Rahms]

You aren't currently dosing EI. EI is a specific amount that was found experimentally, not "recommended dosages on the back of pre-mixed fert bottles".

edit: ian beat me to it...

I don't see why you'd buy another pre-mixed fertiliser in the hope that its better, instead of just buying the powders and making your own EI micro. You managed with the macro!

 

[jsiegmund]

No its not. You are not dosing EI.

It says "on the macro's", right? So are my doses of NO3 and PO4 incorrect? Cause then I need to find a new calculator, these are the doses the calculator gives me for my tank.

I'll won't debate over the micro's, I'm happy to say that those are not EI, never said so anyway. The NO3 and PO4 comes in weighted portions to which I only have to add 200ml of water. That's easy. Buying all sorts of powders, weighing them and making my own solution, I'm not real comfortable with that yet. That's why I liked the pre-mixed stuff, because it's again just adding water to make a stock solution. And the KramerDrak I already have, bought it some weeks ago.

A quick EI calculation of mix contents, 1 litre of EI solution up the Mg in this solution is over 7000mg/l (70gr x (molar mass of Mg)/(molar mass of MgSO4.7H2O))

I don't understand how this is relevant. If one solution is 7000mg/l and the other one is 3500mg/l, you'd just need to add two times the amount of the second one compared to the first to get the same amount of ppm in your tank. So where you add 1ml of "EI mix", I'd add two ml of KramerDrak and the end result is exactly the same amount of Mg. One thing you could argue is that the ratios of the pre-mixed stuff might not be in line with EI, that I would need to check.

 

[ian_m]

So what if I switch out my Ferrdrakon for Kamerdrak and go with 12ml / week?

What 12ml a week. . No wonder. Rolling your own EI never ever ever works.

You should be dosing this weak solution at about 20ml per day if your tank is 100l.

The EI solution I gave you at 7000mg/l should be dosed 20ml per day for a 100l EI tank.

Your solution needs dosing at over 40ml per day to get the required levels. Actually get away with 20ml per day as both macro and micro.

Please dose EI, not something invented, it never works.

 

[Rahms]

Read the EI tutorial, there is no weighing. If you can make a cup of tea you can make an EI mix. If you're willing to go through the pain of calculating what proportion of your pre-mixed fert is equivalent to EI then go ahead it may work, but that's harder than just making an EI mix, and then you're also committed to spending more. If you're not willing to do either then, yes, you will likely have nutrient problems.

You've spent more time typing here than you would have spent on buying and making a micro mix!

 

[Edvet]

I use CSM-B from the same company (aquariumbemesting.nl i guess), i just add half a teaspoon to my (large)tank 2/3 times a week.
And i use KNO3, KH2PO4 and MgSO4 3 times a week 5/1/2 teaspoons. No algea, no problems, and it's lowish light. With high light and CO2 i used app double this amount.

 

[ceg4048]

So let me ask you guys a question. If all of the tests are rubbish and you have a tank running on EI which has some sort of problem, whatever that is. How do you solve it then? Just dose EI some more and wait for it to go away on it's own? I'd say you need to have some way to at least have an indication of something to improve. And when the obvious ones (CO2, flow) are ok, then what? Or do you recon that dosing EI is sufficient to rule out any issues with nutrients / water chemistry? I'm not criticizing here, just want to understand the reasoning.

If you are dosing EI then you have ruled out nutrients as an issue. There is no point in measuring because measurements won\t tell you anything more than you can already see with your eyes, AND measuring will most likely give you false information to lead you on the wrong path. THAT'S why you shouldn't measure, because not measuring saves you from heading down the false path, and it forces you to re-evaluate things that you perhaps had falsely concluded.

Those images show a CO2 fault, especially on the p. helferi. So the problem is any combination of too much light, or not enough flow, or poor distribution of flow. Nutrients have nothing to do with those faults.

Cheers,

 

[jsiegmund]

Those images show a CO2 fault, especially on the p. helferi. So the problem is any combination of too much light, or not enough flow, or poor distribution of flow. Nutrients have nothing to do with those faults.

Ok, that's a clear message. So I will up CO2 a bit more to see what happens. Can you perhaps tell me how you make such a conclusion based on the images? What are the things you see that make this a clear case? I'd like to know so I can recognize the same a next time

 

[roadmaster]

I Do not doubt that Clive can identify CO2 issues by looking at images, but for most of us ,it is a process of elimination.
If we can eliminate nutrient deficiency by following EI dosing scheme then what does that leave?

 

[Rahms]

I've always thought of melt as being a CO2 issue. Not sure if I picked that up here or even if its correct, but maybe (just maybe) its the reason