• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Hope not just another H2O2 question.

Hi all,
Organics aren't necessarily a bad thing (<"Dissolved organic substances">).

In marine reef, or un-planted "rift lake" tanks, where you have very heavily carbonate buffered water you can aim for high REDOX values and no dissolved organics, but the situation is much more complex in planted tanks with softer water and a substrate.

I use a different approach, where I try and ensure that I always have fairly high oxygen levels (via planted tanks, plants with access to aerial CO2, a reasonable amount of flow, venturi devices, water changes, aerobic biological filter material etc.) in the water and then I think in terms of Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD) of any items that I add to the tank.

The only measurement I take is conductivity. Although it isn't the most useful parameter it is the only one where you can just dip the meter in and get an accurate reading.

cheers Darrel
 
I don't dose my planted tanks or my reefs with the peroxide direct to the top water Jose, my use for it is a cleaning tool and spot sterilizer for algae. .. The secondary effects are some further digestion of organic wastes collected about but I never thought it was ridding the tank of them. .. conservation of matter. merely speeds the breakdown process so that eventual physical removal works nicely

the physical actions of the peroxide runoff while I'm cleaning a drained tank with it help to dislodge pockets of junk down low in between the leaves of my carpeting plants, so that my final rinse has a nice cleaning effect but there is still physical export. I don't think it can take the place of water changes.

I think we can run low or no wc systems independent of p use but the ones that collect organic waste indefinitely have a look to them in time that is accumulated dying stage material littered about (as a lake might look on the bottom) and eutrophic in places, where as the maintained tanks have that classic crisp look due to physicality imparted by the keeper.

lake and stream management companies who correct ecological problems like fish kill and eutrophication issues do routinely apply sludge digestors like perchlorate to large bodies of water to speed the reduction of accumulated materials much like you are considering here. But they also factor in physical elements to destratify these digestible pockets and do something, or redistribute, the digested material upon completion and imo this is the water change we cant avoid in planted tanks unless we are going for a very accumulated look like an all natural Lake bottom.

I think peroxide is the most handy aquarium cheat I know but any tank that goes years without service looks exactly that way even if extra digestors are used. Instead of lots of large particle leaf litter lying about it would be tons of powdery ll
 
Ok guys. Ill try and post some pictures of my no water change medium tech nano which I dose with H2O2 weekley to the water colummn when I get a decent camera. Just in case someone wants to join me in my experiment hehe.

There is another thing Im not sure about..Does H2O2 oxidize in someway the ammonia. I think the answer is: absolutely not but...maybe its breaking down the organic molecules to more simple ones which the bacteria can consume more readily(?). Or maybe the higher oxygen levels is making a difference but my tank pearls quite nicely so dont think high oxygen is the only answer here.
 
Last edited:
Quick update

got a pic of peroxide facilitated decomposition occurring in my palmtop tank

I dropped the water line all the way to mist some hair algae on the front area high light carpet marsilea minuta

as it cooked for a sec, the seepage acts on plant mulm, waste organics in the bed.

the bubbling can also indicate the presence of natural ecosystem bacteria species that have certain metabolic characters which cause the bubbles. The palms of our hands are filthy bacteria reservoirs, yet no bubble when cupping peroxide.
catalase indication is interesting

in the case of peroxide-aided organic digestion of ecological waste, this picture shows in minute detail the physical act of peroxide bubbles breaking down cellulose leftovers, actually helping the dislodging aspect I need to keep the bed looking clean
f07nqwwYj

it makes my tank easier to clean, but it doesn't make that original cellulose detritus go away it just dislodges it and makes it powdery small to remove easily from the root strands.
 
Hi Brandon429.
I think your tank might have too much algae/waste build up to try and let everything in the hands of peroxyde.

I dont think you can have good results in a very high light or very high bioload tank only with H2O2. It will of course help you though ( if you dont overdose and kill living things).

My tank is a high tech high light tank as well but bioload to me is low because I switch off the filters and water current when I feed, this way there is no food leftover or organics in the tank. The flow is also very good and the filter is quite mature.
So...if youve got algae problems you can use h202 but also do your very frequent water changes and all that.

In my tank thats probably why I dont see that detritus powder you are talking about. What goes into the tank is all being transformed into nitrates, phosphates and co2 mainly. Substances which all plants can consume.

I also lowered my light and my tank just needsno cleaning, no algae in the glass or anything.

If you want a really clean looking tank I recomend lowering the amount of light if posible mate. Otherwise you might be bound to a high ammount of water changes which just doesnt suit my lazy personality.

Do keep us informed and if you can say the h2o2 ammounts you have been using that would be great. Thanks

Cheers
 
In my tank thats probably why I dont see that detritus powder you are talking about. What goes into the tank is all being transformed into nitrates, phosphates and co2 mainly. Substances which all plants can consume.

i wasnt meaning to imply the algae was out of control or that p was my primary removal means for detritus...just relating a photo to your original question of total in tank digestion of whole wastes. input outpaces reduction in all aquariums, you were seeming to indicate your tank produces no detritus and that piqued my interest.


there are parts of plant material that dont degrade fully to become uptaken, this constitutes the detrital layer found in all aged systems. Ive no concern about algae with such an easy fix, to see our history using peroxide (not haphazardly) google this:

pico reef pest algae challenge thread

check out all 60 pages :)

but in the end I was just showing how breakdown occurs secondarily from use, even if I didnt have peroxide aiding the breakdown my water changes are still pretty thorough. my algae occured from an overdose of some ferts. The point of my post is that you actually cannot break down all waste to use for plants, some cannot be used. we can either export that or sink it as future substrate, but its accumulative and not reductive, this helps to know in tank planning.

whether or not we store up waste or export it simply changes the balance in the tank, one of my other systems is indeed a constant storage no detritus removal system 13 yrs in the making, whereas this tiny system is exported well and gets 100% water changes often.
 
Last edited:
Ill definately have a look at that threat of yours brandon.
I apologise for any suppositions I might have made. But there are still a few things that arent true in your last post.

First of all: "input outpaces reduction in all aquariums". Not in all, I had a tank I used for guppy breeding ,packed with those buggers that I barely changed any wáter( maybe 40% once every 2 months) with 0 ditritus. It was very low light and low tech but it had a very good filtering compartment and a sponge air filter which to me is quite a wonderful thing to have in a low tech. I didnt dose h2o2 in that one, didnt need it. Although I dont have any experience with reeftanks i have to say. I think those are harde cause you have to feed the corals as well.

I think you can actually transform all organic matter into basic molecules like nitrates, phosphates and co2. But you have to have certain conditions in your tank and add as Little food as posible.

The other thing thats not true is: "my algae occured from an overdose of some ferts". At least not in freshwater which I think is what you were refferring to here. Algae is caused by:
a) high light/CO2 relationship (too low CO2 for your light levels in other words)
b)ammonia spikes and inmature filter and/or too Little wáter changes.
c) Low nutrients and suffering plants.
 
This is good science trick


post a photo of your substrate layer boundary like my pic above we can do something neat w it, regarding detritus
 
Then we test the claim about how adding ferts in overdose cannot cause a temp algae spike in otherwise healthy tank. With something very simple and nonlethal to anything in your tank we can test that. I'm for sure claiming overdose of phosphorous and liquid iron w do it, but we can test these issues one at a time


regarding the zero detritus producing tank can you get us a link to the build thread for it

none of us are inventing anything here, what we do has been done by others and its online guaranteed

the next thing to help us understand that special kind of aquarium is to find a link from another builder who has one online please link us one from a similar build where the system does not accumulate detritus but has total uptake of it
 
Jose

What you are describing about your tank has been attempted for decades and never attained that Ive seen, its part of the true self containing ecosystem approach so many describe (but we need links to make a description real)

any system that can accomplish total assimilation has unusual plant density and details in the pics show faster than normal plant growth and such a reduced element of bioload per gallon im interested to read about total volume and see pics of the bioload that makes solid waste...fish, snails shrimp etc


Part of the challenge of true sealed biomes, total self sustenance, is rate of input not outpacing total mineralization where detrital compounds are reduced to inert materials before they accumulate. Some of the laws of conservation of matter are greatly tested in systems that dont have any output, while getting consistent input from feed and fish and higher animal waste, in addition to plant breakdown. tiny insects in the system cast off chitin shells during molts, they die, and we have this collection of detritus from many species all of which have varying degredational times to a total inert substance.

Im guessing you need no ferts if total compound distribution is going on, and, that your system is old enough to have really tested the claim. these are the details we can get from just one or a few good full tank shots and a link to your tank

the other half of the equation for total self sustenance is zero input...the kind of system where the ecosystem is producing what it consumes in balance, we're claiming that cant be done. Some of us have systems approaching 20 yrs old attempting what you have and have found it unattainable, it would help people who study long term captive ecosystems to see at least the model that can fully reduce all waste in the dilution confines of the typical home aquarium/ links!!

for my own ultra old system, my five gallon planted tank is older than 90% of full size planted tanks on any board, it cannot reduce detritus fully and my links show some highly, highly specialized design factors to attain it. i gotta see what you have man!
B
 
Last edited:
There are a lot of things to answer from your post so Ill try and do my best in a few posts.

I promise I will add photos of my nano tank once a get a decent camera or I might just add some very bad quality photos from my phone.

I honestly dont think what we are discussing here is very hard to obtain, in fact, you can google low tech tank threads with very few water changes a year that have no detritus. I think its just down to having a very good filtration, low light that doesnt generate algae, and low feeding/bioload.

I will try and link some evidence or photos when I get the time.

Cheers
 
Catching detritus in a filter and then cleaning it is very normal and I'd expect that no problem, yes thats very common. Ok on pics
 
I dont clean the filters either. It degrades there.

You seen this?

Doesnt seem to have a lot of ditritus does it. Although they do replace some of the gross mechanical filtration often.

By the way my tank runs at over 4ppm of phosphates weekly and so do many in this forum without algae issues.
 
Last edited:
Some back tracking is going on. Replacing the filtration accomplishes what I've been saying and is totally opposite of what you have been saying

the substrate in that picture does have detritus in it, and high flow redirects it to a catch, and •remove• area thanks for posting that. Show us a filter pad of yours that hasn't been cleaned in a year, if the tank is that old. it should be like new, from your tank.

in no way does that video support the claim of a system of no export and total in tank assimilation of waste.

I said a spike of nutrient can cause a bloom, something above the steady state. need pics of your tank and a months old non cleaned filter pad...if nothing is posted soon then it seems these claims over the last few posts don't carry much proven weight and we can close discussion.

why would you need peroxide in your question? There's nothing to degrade in your tank with it? The ammonia you asked about is taken care of through the typical means, curious as to what you thought peroxide would do for a tank that doesn't accumulate particulate matter.

B
 
Last edited:
Its not or black or white thing. There are middle ground spots as well. This guy is keeping loads of discus in there. I said I dont replace or clean my filters but, hey I dont need to convince anyone. It can definately be done.
 
and as long as we don't post a pic of your uncleaned filters w no detritus your statements are safe :)

this claim was given 24 hours to back up and that's as long as it takes to process big claims against known aquarium dynamics. no pics are coming of a filter that doesn't need export, or of your tank that doesn't accumulate whole waste. nobody in this forum or on the entire site has one either.

it is correct to say nobody convinced.

The very first sentence in this thread from your question goes against all youve said on this page. organic matter was acknowledged, export for it as well. Your tank is simply not old enough to prove any of this, hence lack of pics for entire thread. have fun w your tank, this all isnt a huge deal but its fun to test claims sometimes.
 
Last edited:
You cant really speak for everyone in this forum I have to say. That being said this isnt really getting where it was supposed to be. My original intention was to get some answers from some of the big fish here. I am convinced that there are loads of low tech tank out there without any ditritus and no water changes since thats one of the most common ways of keeping a low tech. If you want more evidence I wont do the work for you but there are loads of shrimp tanks in the planted tank forums that get barely any water changes if at all and they are quite clean.
 
im specifically speaking for everyone on the whole board and they are reading it. im sure someone will post up if they have such a system, who wouldn't want to disprove some new poster making claims for every aquarium in the world

not anyone here has a non exportive filter or tank that has no accumulation of waste and especially a filter that fully reduces all detritus requiring no cleaning over a proven long period of time.
When shrimps poop in a forest of hc, that doesn't mean there is no detritus

since we aren't getting any of your proof pics I'll state where it was going if we did: was going to have you shoot some peroxide at your substrate bed and it will do what my proof pics showed, it will react on the organics you had originally mentioned before being asked for details.


There are only variations in input and output based on bioload and physical designs within the tank. we beat the horse pretty well and saw actually nothing of the tank claiming this feat. That's how it always goes down.

good night or morning depending on where you are its 8 am for me time to get productive for the day.. ;)

b
 
Last edited:
I am not saying everyone has it or that its easy to do for a beginner. And I havent said or meant that there are no organics in my substrate, all I said is there is no detritus accumulation to make it noticeable. Of course there are organics in any tank that bubble up when you put in h2o2, of course.

By the way, saying something is not possible just because no one has answered in a forum is no t great logic, and neither is expecting some photos which wont prove what I am saying because I could have lied to you (I didnt) and have done weekly water changes to the tank in question ( I didnt).

This is my last post in here unless something useful comes up.

And by the way you should never say you are speaking for everyone in here especially someone who doesnt seem to know the basics of this type of forums (excess nutrients dont cause algae).

Have a wonderfull day.
 
I'm sure they will chime in if they feel like their tanks qualify in ways I said they couldn't, sure its a testy thing to say let's wait for links. If there is none after that kind of offer up, maybe that does say something. My little challenge is only in fun, we know how detritus works and I'm just seeing how many might have proof otherwise. None so far. Time will tell.



Its better wording to simply ask for links and pics, if someone thinks they are being accused of spreading untruth the tone changes. In either case it was a gentlemanly post back and forth and it might help a new tank planner to know we cannot attain a system utilizing feed input and animals that doesn't require specific forms of export, in addition to biological fixation. Whole waste particulate matter collects in every tank at varying rates, so plan accordingly.

If anyone tells them differently and doesn't have links or a simple phone video uploaded to youtube showing today's date on a card and them squeezing filter material into a clean glass of water and getting no brown, perhaps that claim shouldn't be factored was my main point. :)


This indeed turned out not to be just another h202 question
good day.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top