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Is EI enough?

Then look at the basics thoroughly cause there is smthing wrong. Look at light, ferts regime, water changes etc.
 
A few questions:

1. Can there be lush healthy growth with inert substrate and no nutrient enriched under-soil, just with EI?

2. If it is better to add Macros at the beginning of the week once a week, what ppm should be added for each nutrient?

3. If adding all Macros at the beginning of the week, how will someone need to dose Micros?

4. If the substrate is not nutrient enriched, is it better to be clay based with a high CEC or plain inert? The reason for this question is because when adding nutrients through water column, the clay substrate will absorb some amount of nutrients, will this cause nutrient deprivation to the plants?

Thanks in advance

ardjuna said:
Hardly anyone can answer this question. But for sure, each plant species has a different optimum concentration level. Still, I would say that the suggested concentration should be very close to the upper limit for most plants.
Click to expand...
 
Jaap said:
1. Can there be lush healthy growth with inert substrate and no nutrient enriched under-soil, just with EI?
Click to expand...
I think it will depend on the plant species used in the tank, as well as on other parameters also (light intensity, source water parameters, wood used [organics content], bacterial composition, etc.). For a number of plants the EI amounts should be quite enough to grow well.
2. If it is better to add Macros at the beginning of the week once a week, what ppm should be added for each nutrient?
Click to expand...
Again, I'm not the right person to answer this question, as I don't believe in any universally valid, one-for-all recipe. Different people need different amount of nutrients to be healthy (there are also big differences between men, women, children). The same applies for aquatic plants. Unfortunately, this seems to be hard to understand for many people. If, for example, Pogostemon needs 50 ppm NO3 for optimal growth, and Anubias needs 10 ppm NO3 for optimal growth, then 30 ppm NO3 won't be optimal for neither of these plant species. For Pogostemon this concentration won't be enough, while for Anubias this concentration may be even toxic (it may hinder/block its full growth). The same logic applies for CO2 also (some plants may need 20 ppm for optimum growth, while for others 40 ppm may be already toxic). The only aquarist, I know of, who claims he did some growth experiments, is Mr. Barr. Unfortunately, he never published any findings from his experiments, so all we have are the "claims" and estimated data of EI method.
Note: The above values are just fictional examples.
3. If adding all Macros at the beginning of the week, how will someone need to dose Micros?
Click to expand...
I would say that for the iron (Fe) applies the same logic as for macro elements. [Other trace elements chelates, except iron chelates, are quite stable, and should not break down as easily as with iron, so this point applies mainly to iron.] This means, that it is best to dose it at the begining of the week (after the water change). The problem is that most of the iron chelates won't last for a whole week, and will break down (degrade) usually the next day after we add them to our tanks. The only exception seems to be Fe-DTPA (and maybe Fe-HEEDTA or some other stronger chelates). So because most iron chelates won't last long enough, we have no other choice but to dose them on daily basis (or every other day) ... if we want them to be available for our plants. If you dose Fe-gluconate just once a week, then you can be sure that for your plants it will be available for no more than 2 days (at most); for the rest of the week your plants won't have any iron available from Fe-gluconate. Still, some plants may be fine with this approach (they may be able to absorb the iron on the first day, and for the rest of the week they can draw from stocks).
PS: I may be wrong; it's just my opinion.
4. If the substrate is not nutrient enriched, is it better to be clay based with a high CEC or plain inert? The reason for this question is because when adding nutrients through water column, the clay substrate will absorb some amount of nutrients, will this cause nutrient deprivation to the plants?
Click to expand...
This is a good question which I don't know the answer for.
 
Thanks for the answer.

Could you please explain how your schedule is for Macro and Micro dosing and in what ppm targets?

Also do you use nutrient enriched substrate or not?

Thanks

ardjuna said:
I think it will depend on the plant species used in the tank, as well as on other parameters also (light intensity, source water parameters, wood used [organics content], bacterial composition, etc.). For a number of plants the EI amounts should be quite enough to grow well.

Again, I'm not the right person to answer this question, as I don't believe in any universally valid, one-for-all recipe. Different people need different amount of nutrients to be healthy (there are also big differences between men, women, children). The same applies for aquatic plants. Unfortunately, this seems to be hard to understand for many people. If, for example, Pogostemon needs 50 ppm NO3 for optimal growth, and Anubias needs 10 ppm NO3 for optimal growth, then 30 ppm NO3 won't be optimal for neither of these plant species. For Pogostemon this concentration won't be enough, while for Anubias this concentration may be even toxic (it may hinder/block its full growth). The same logic applies for CO2 also (some plants may need 20 ppm for optimum growth, while for others 40 ppm may be already toxic). The only aquarist, I know of, who claims he did some growth experiments, is Mr. Barr. Unfortunately, he never published any findings from his experiments, so all we have are the "claims" and estimated data of EI method.
Note: The above values are just fictional examples.

I would say that for the iron (Fe) applies the same logic as for macro elements. [Other trace elements chelates, except iron chelates, are quite stable, and should not break down as easily as with iron, so this point applies mainly to iron.] This means, that it is best to dose it at the begining of the week (after the water change). The problem is that most of the iron chelates won't last for a whole week, and will break down (degrade) usually the next day after we add them to our tanks. The only exception seems to be Fe-DTPA (and maybe Fe-HEEDTA or some other stronger chelates). So because most iron chelates won't last long enough, we have no other choice but to dose them on daily basis (or every other day) ... if we want them to be available for our plants. If you dose Fe-gluconate just once a week, then you can be sure that for your plants it will be available for no more than 2 days (at most); for the rest of the week your plants won't have any iron available from Fe-gluconate. Still, some plants may be fine with this approach (they may be able to absorb the iron on the first day, and for the rest of the week they can draw from stocks).
PS: I may be wrong; it's just my opinion.

This is a good question which I don't know the answer for.
Click to expand...
 
You can grow any plant by using EI as long as the rest is good as Ardjuna says. If you think plant X is not having enough nutrients with EI then just dose double and find out. Now, a nutrient rich substrate is always a good idea because it provides a backup for people who are nutrient scared or lazy.
 
Although I don't believe that any one-for-all recipe can be optimal for all aquarium plants, still we have no other choice than to use just one fertilization method in our tanks. Right now I have just one 60L (15G) tank where I have ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia substrate, and I fertilize sporadically in there when I see any signs of deficiencies. This is the only tank where I have fish. I don't want nor need any fast growth there, so I don't add too much fertilizers. Then I have another 60L (15G) tank, which I use for cultivation of plants for my growth experiments. In this tank I use EI method of fertilization together with ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia substrate. Then I have 5 small tanks (each 16L = 4G), where I have different nutrient concentrations (weekly doses):
1.tank = 15 ppm NO3, 1.5 ppm PO4, 10 ppm K, 0.15 ppm Fe + other trace elements
2.tank = 30 ppm NO3, 3 ppm PO4, 20 ppm K, 0.3 ppm Fe
3.tank = 60 ppm NO3, 6 ppm PO4, 40 ppm K, 0.6 ppm Fe
4.tank = 90 ppm NO3, 9 ppm PO4, 61 ppm K, 0.9 ppm Fe
5.tank = 120 ppm NO3, 12 ppm PO4, 81 ppm K, 1.2 ppm Fe
I posted the picture of this experimental set already (see here).
In the last three tanks I have to divide the trace elements dose into 7 smaller sub-doses, because if I add the full dose once a week into the tank, the iron precipitates quite quickly. When I use smaller doses, the iron seems to be better uptaken and the precipitation seems to be not such a problem. Also, in the fifth tank I have quite bad oily film on the water surface (probably due to the extremely high concentration of nutrients).
 
Jose said:
You can grow any plant by using EI as long as the rest is good as Ardjuna says. If you think plant X is not having enough nutrients with EI then just dose double and find out. Now, a nutrient rich substrate is always a good idea because it provides a backup for people who are nutrient scared or lazy.
Click to expand...
Hi Jose, I hear what you are saying. But my dosing is fully automated with dosing pumps so even if I am away the arduino controller will dose, on alternative days, for the volumes necessary.

If I understand your post correctly, you imply that if I stick to dosing schedule, a nutrient rich substrate is not necessary and an inert (or high cec) substrate suffices.
 
Christos Ioannou said:
If I understand your post correctly, you imply that if I stick to dosing schedule, a nutrient rich substrate is not necessary and an inert (or high cec) substrate suffices.
Click to expand...

To be 100% honest I have always dosed a bit more than EI, around double and never really used a fertile substrate like ADA AS, although at first I used some garden soil but discarded it quite soon. I think that EI is sufficient for all plants we keep in the hobby. But then there might be precipitation issues with soil, hard water etc. So its hard to say for each person. But one thing is true, youre are going to make the best use of your time looking to your co2 and light levels if really dosing EI. I say this because EI works for most if they get this right.
 
Jaap said:
A few questions:

1. Can there be lush healthy growth with inert substrate and no nutrient enriched under-soil, just with EI?
Click to expand...

I use plain gravel, no root tabs and no under-soil. But honestly, growing small carpet plants such as hair grass mini (belem) is extremely slow. And I'm not doing EI because I limit my PO4 dosage to 0.1 PPM daily. Overall it looks quite lush and healthy for me.

But I think I should have started with ADA Amazonia. Ideally, newbies should use everything that could help archive the goal easier, such as a good proven substrate, if they can afford it. And start with a small tank first to get a feel at lower cost and for easy maintenance.

Examples of tanks with good growth using plain gravel:

(EI dosing)
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-maintenance-120cmx60x60-tank-new-photo-on-page-5.2538/page-4

(Using Tropica liquid fertiliser)
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/iwagumi-scree-evolution-the-end.14467/
 
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ardjuna said:
How much "invisible" the iron in the chelate is, depends primarily on the:
→ strength of a particular chelate
→ pH of the solution (typically associated with alkalinity)
→ temperature
→ irradiation (light intensity)
Click to expand...

Hi all,

If light intensity is a major issue in breaking the chelates, could adding the daily dosage at the end of the day (after lights go off) be better for iron availability and plant uptake?

Thx!
Mihai
 
Hi people, about the precipitation when dosing micros and macros on the same day. I had some left over solution of micro and macro, and mixed equal amounts in a glass.
No visible precipitation just a transparent solution (yellow tint from micro solution)
Micros: Chelated trace elements from APF
Macros: KNO3, MgSO4*7H20, KH2PO4
33090kn.jpg
 
Add light. It looks like the micro chelator is still active. You want it to go brown. Upping pH might help.
 
So, I am setting up a new batch of the macro solution. Suggested ppm is as below.

Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week

Using KNO3 and KH2PO4. I can get the NO3 ppm and the PO4 ppm but also get a lean K ppm (half the recommended ppm) as below:
14iebg4.jpg


Since too much PO4 is not good (from earlier replies in this thread) should I fiddle with KNO3 to get to the 30ppm of K?
This will however give a rich NO3 solution...(double the recommended ppm)
14ik0ut.jpg


I understand that it is very difficult to try and adjust my dosing based on observations, since 101% of the times, a deficiency is immediately linked to poor co2
 
Jose said:
Add light. It looks like the micro chelator is still active. You want it to go brown. Upping pH might help.
Click to expand...
Hi Jose, care to clarify what you mean? The solution was sitting there for more than 3hrs, on a window under indirect yet strong sunlight.
 
Christos Ioannou said:
So, I am setting up a new batch of the macro solution. Suggested ppm is as below.

Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week

Using KNO3 and KH2PO4. I can get the NO3 ppm and the PO4 ppm but also get a lean K ppm (half the recommended ppm) as below:
14iebg4.jpg


Since too much PO4 is not good (from earlier replies in this thread) should I fiddle with KNO3 to get to the 30ppm of K?
This will however give a rich NO3 solution...(double the recommended ppm)
14ik0ut.jpg


I understand that it is very difficult to try and adjust my dosing based on observations, since 101% of the times, a deficiency is immediately linked to poor co2
Click to expand...
Bump(!?)
 
Christos Ioannou said:
Bump(!?)
Click to expand...

I think you don't need more K.

I used to dose K2SO4 to supplement K to 30 PPM/week. But then I doubted I need that much. So I tried stopping K2SO4 dosing 2 weeks ago. All the K now is from KNO3 and KH2PO4, no adverse effect seen.

Let's think about it. The amounts (numbers of PPM) of K and NO3 don't need to be similar. Because NO3 contains only 22.59% N. While the number for K here is only K, that means 100% K. So you dose a lot of excess K when following the number.

The theory for the excess K is to compensate for the N and P from fish waste.

But there are people who think it doesn't have to be that high.

Tropica's old Plant Nutrition+ didn't contain very high K (not sure about the current Specialised Fertilizer).

The EI dosing guide here doesn't include K2SO4.

Tom Barr often says you have more than enough K from KNO3 alone.
http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...rce-of-k-no-k2so4-kcl-needed-a-ratio-analysis

But when people say too much K is not good, he usually counters it because it's against the EI method and immediately raise examples of healthy tanks with high K.. :shh:
 
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