Lean dosing pros and cons

[JacksonL]

I think safety of urea dosing could also depend on the plantmass in the tank.. If there are an army of plants to mop it up as soon as it is converted, vs maybe a lightly planted tank with mostly slow growing plants, the difficult to pin down "safe" amount will maybe differ.
I encourage everyone to exercise caution if trying this method, for the safety of their livestock
Not to derail the thread, I am intending to try gradually going from KNO3 to parts Urea myself in a little while, so I am following the updates posted here with great interest Keep it coming guys

I am currently doing the same in my two tanks. I have been dosing 10ppm NO3 and I am now dosing 25% of that with Urea. It’s only been a week now but not ill effects on invertebrates or shrimp.
Can’t see any change yet in the jungle scape tank but the MC growth in my iwagumi shrimp scape has definitely gone up a gear and the new growth seems brighter green.
Still very early days but seems positive so far.

 

[plantnoobdude]

In terms of a cautionary instruction for any causal reader, it might also be worth you guys clarifying what you think is the safe maximum dose of ammonia/urea based ferts in terms of live stock exposure?

with low ph there isn't really a limit . ammonium is fairly non-toxic to fish. I think Urea is safer than Nh4, because it degrades where as nh4 is immediately available. I have dosed up to 3ppm N from urea weekly, (~6ppm urea weekly). but my tank has 0kh and good substrate so ph should be quite low.

 

[Happi]

Dear members,
first of all my goal isn't about providing the magic recipe with Urea to solve all your problem, I can also understand the fear of toxicity that comes to people mind. Urea is many times safer than NH4 which I already covered in several threads, I have gone more than 1 ppm N from Urea to see if it would have any negative effect on the fish, didn't see any and bumped up to even higher doses 3 ppm N from urea in single dose, nothing happened again. but I notice that NO3 reading were going up when more was added, I also noticed that Urea conversion to NH4 doesn't take place immediately, I believe I have explained this in one of the thread. if you were adding 1 ppm N from Urea, your test kit might only detect very little NH4, around 0.2 ppm NH4 or so, the very next day it will detect 0.4 ppm or so, the breakdown of urea to NH4 is very slow and even if you were to add 1 ppm N from Urea in single dose, it will take hours or day before all of it is converted into NH4 and by then your plant will uptake most of the NH4. think of Urea as a slow release source of NH4 vs lets say if you were to use NH4NO3, which if you added 1 ppm N from NH4NO3, you will see a huge jump in NH4 immediately. I myself consider NH4NO3 to be safe even if it were to exceed 1 ppm NH4 but again I can pull this trigger because my PH is between 5-6 and KH is almost 0.

I cannot give you definite answer on what dose is 100% safe because it will depend on your water parameters but I can Ensure you that you Urea is very safe. I have gone up in the range of 9+ ppm NH4 in the water and didn't see any negative effect on fish but I wouldn't recommend this as a daily routine. for standard users 0.1 to 1 ppm N from Urea is fine and safer, even those with higher PH can dose 0.1 ppm N from Urea daily.

I used James example for Urea because he also demonstrated that when NO3 is high, the benefit of NH4/Urea is reduced. many sources confirm this:
DRAK - Eudrakon N
I have also observed the same, if the ratio of NH4 to NO3 start to shift toward NO3, I observed stunting of several plants, the only time this stunting was reduced if your tank have Anoxic condition which will reduce the NO3 levels. most people have their filter setup to convert NH4 to NO3 where NO3 builds up over time. there are tons of articles and videos on this topic and google is your friend if anyone want to look it up. some people claim that they added so much NO3 in their water and their test kits detect 0 after few days, I think they are unaware that they might have Anoxic condition in their aquariums, but they are under the impression that plant are up taking all of that Nitrate. when there are no Anoxic condition, the aquarium will always preset 5-10 ppm NO3 constantly even when fully planted, 5 ppm NO3 reading being very common under such scenario.

 

[plantnoobdude]

I am currently doing the same in my two tanks. I have been dosing 10ppm NO3 and I am now dosing 25% of that with Urea. It’s only been a week now but not ill effects on invertebrates or shrimp.
Can’t see any change yet in the jungle scape tank but the MC growth in my iwagumi shrimp scape has definitely gone up a gear and the new growth seems brighter green.
Still very early days but seems positive so far.

would love to see some pics of the tanks! and previous dosing regime,

 

[JacksonL]

would love to see some pics of the tanks! and previous dosing regime,

Both were classic EI dosed previously.
Current dosing per week on both tanks is:
N 10 (using IFC calculator so I believe that is actually NO3?) with a ratio of 3:1 NO3 to urea. So about 0.36ppm of urea per day according to the calculator.
P 1.5
K 5 ( I use potassium carbonate to remineralise RO so it’s considerable higher in reality as the weekly 55% water change water has 30ppm K)
Fe 0.4 (0.2 from CSM+B and 0.2 from DTPA Fe)
Also dosing 0.001 Ni in addition to the CSM+B trace.

Both tanks use RO remineralised to 2dkh and 5dgh (roughly 6ppm Mg and 28ppm Ca)

 

[plantnoobdude]

with high light, do we NEED high co2? the answer is no.
take a look at this thread

sudiorca's non-CO2 supplemented softwater tank

www.plantedtank.net

they put a lot of importance into the temperature, but I think good substrate and high quality fertiliser plays a big part as well. with urea and nh4. I believe Happi helped with the development of nilocg but dont quote me on that! also, dont miss out the fact that he uses root tabs that contain ammonia every month or so.

 

[plantnoobdude]

View attachment 183702

Both were classic EI dosed previously.
Current dosing per week on both tanks is:
N 10 (using IFC calculator so I believe that is actually NO3?) with a ratio of 3:1 NO3 to urea. So about 0.36ppm of urea per day according to the calculator.
P 1.5
K 5 ( I use potassium carbonate to remineralise RO so it’s considerable higher in reality as the weekly 55% water change water has 30ppm K)
Fe 0.4 (0.2 from CSM+B and 0.2 from DTPA Fe)
Also dosing 0.001 Ni in addition to the CSM+B trace.

Both tanks use RO remineralised to 2dkh and 5dgh (roughly 6ppm Mg and 28ppm Ca)

I believe I see some stunting in rotala species in the back, which are lythraceae so not surprising. have you tried other fertiisers with this plant? has the plant always shown such growth?
N is part of No3, to avoid confusion always try to use the correct form,
N should be No3, and P should probably be po4. it is better to use no3 equivalent and po4 equivalent IMO, because that's what most people are familiar with.
both tanks are looking very nice with a very cute assortment of fish!

 

[Happi]

with high light, do we NEED high co2? the answer is no.
take a look at this thread

sudiorca's non-CO2 supplemented softwater tank

www.plantedtank.net

they put a lot of importance into the temperature, but I think good substrate and high quality fertiliser plays a big part as well. with urea and nh4. I believe Happi helped with the development of nilocg but dont quote me on that! also, dont miss out the fact that he uses root tabs that contain ammonia every month or so.

I just want to clarify that I didn't help Nilocg with everything but I did help him with understanding how to DIY several things once I gained more knowledge and shared my knowledge, recipes and whatever experiments I was doing at that time with him, that was back in 2014 very long time ago. I did help him with his GH booster product

need help breaking this down


anyway the thread you linked, that guys seems to figured out things and is on the right path. I haven't read the whole thread yet but from quick glance, it appear as he is using high lights, lean dosing and very little co2.

 

[Happi]

@JacksonL

please try to be more clear weather you are using P or PO4, N or NO3 when you put that in calculator to calculate for KH2PO4 and KNO3, 1 ppm P would be 3 ppm PO4 and 1 ppm N would be 4.42 NO3.

same apply to Urea 0.36 ppm N as Urea or 0.36 ppm Urea? if calculated as N from Urea at 0.36 ppm, this will add 0.77 ppm Urea.

 

[eminor]

is it possible to get red plant using low light, co2 and lean dosing, nitrogen limitation work with low light ?

 

[JacksonL]

@JacksonL

please try to be more clear weather you are using P or PO4, N or NO3 when you put that in calculator to calculate for KH2PO4 and KNO3, 1 ppm P would be 3 ppm PO4 and 1 ppm N would be 4.42 NO3.

same apply to Urea 0.36 ppm N as Urea or 0.36 ppm Urea? if calculated as N from Urea at 0.36 ppm, this will add 0.77 ppm Urea.

It is 2.26ppm N per week (10ppm NO3)
1.68ppm of that is from NO3, 0.56ppm from urea.
The 1.5ppm is PO4 so 0.49ppm of P.
I make new ferts every 2 weeks, my plan is to reduce the NO3 in the next lot and observe. The occasional stunting in the rotalas in the jungle tank is the main reason I am trying to go leaner.

 

[erwin123]

is it possible to get red plant using low light, co2 and lean dosing, nitrogen limitation work with low light ?

not possible to answer this question without the plant names. But based on your journal, u have C. Furcata, M. Tuberculatum, R. Wallichii, and P. Palustris. These plants don't turn red (or pink in the case of Wallichii) in low light.

Your R.Macrandra Green should also be turning a beautiful golden yellow like the one's in Libba's journal with sufficient light.

 

[eminor]

not possible to answer this question without the plant names. But based on your journal, u have C. Furcata, M. Tuberculatum, R. Wallichii, and P. Palustris. These plants don't turn red (or pink in the case of Wallichii) in low light.

Your R.Macrandra Green should also be turning a beautiful golden yellow like the one's in Libba's journal with sufficient light.

thx, is there a list of plant that turn red in nitrogen stravation ? thx

 

[erwin123]

thx, is there a list of plant that turn red in nitrogen stravation ? thx

The Rotala H'ra in your tank will only turn a beautiful red when nitrate limited. Otherwise it will be orange/pink. Is yours orange/pink or still green?

 

[eminor]

The Rotala H'ra in your tank will only turn a beautiful red when nitrate limited. Otherwise it will be orange/pink. Is yours orange/pink or still green?

pink now

 

[Zeus.]

@Happi or @Zeus. may be able to supply an answer with some real figures.

Sorry been away/busy a few days. I stared using Urea prills at about 20% of the TSN dose with KNO3 at 80%. then slowly increased them to 100%. I had no issues but it was a well planted mature tank.

 

[plantnoobdude]

Sorry been away/busy a few days. I stared using Urea prills at about 20% of the TSN dose with KNO3 at 80%. then slowly increased them to 100%. I had no issues but it was a well planted mature tank.
View attachment 183833

any improvement with plant growth? specifically lythraceae? what does the rest of nutrients look like in comparison? I think it is a very good thing that more people are experimenting with "alternative" dosing.

 

[Zeus.]

any improvement with plant growth? specifically lythraceae? what does the rest of nutrients look like in comparison?

Plant growth was much the same, no lythraceae in tanks, as to what it looked like it was just a close clone of TSN just a bit more dilute and it took the colour on of TSN - the trace elements was slight different as I used APFUK Trace

Only other difference is it was dosed in 100 small doses a week via auto doser - little and often to prevent any nitrite spike

 

[MichaelJ]

with high light, do we NEED high co2? the answer is no.
take a look at this thread

sudiorca's non-CO2 supplemented softwater tank

www.plantedtank.net

they put a lot of importance into the temperature, but I think good substrate and high quality fertiliser plays a big part as well. with urea and nh4. I believe Happi helped with the development of nilocg but dont quote me on that! also, dont miss out the fact that he uses root tabs that contain ammonia every month or so.

That is pretty amazing for a non-injected tank!! Most would be very proud to achieve this with a high-tech tank! Some of the more interesting tidbits I picked up: Keep KH very low (0-1 range), pH low (below 6) and temperature low in order to optimize the available dissolved CO2. Plant very dense from the get go... and judging from the pictures it also seems to me that he gradually increased the light levels as the tank grew in.. I think his emphasis on low temperature might somewhat counter the high light a bit in terms of regulating plant metabolism. He is not speaking to his photo period or if the intensity stay high throughout (I assume, but do not know)... His fertilizer scheme ( including substrate) is undoubtedly a big piece of the puzzle as well. While I am not going to go crank up my light intensity just yet (or recommend anyone running a low-tech tank doing so..), it's great to see that something like this can be pulled off and just goes to show that we still have a lot to learn and there are still many roads that lead to Rome.


Cheers,
Michael

 

[Garuf]

This is why I came back to forums, I’m so glad we have such helpful, educated and educational members to bring us no brains up.