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Lean dosing pros and cons

People throw around the term EI like it's something that is written in stone
The same can be said for "lean" dosing.

Problem is people fixate on numbers and labels. I dose my tank with 9ppm No3, 7 ppm K, 3ppm P04 and 0.3 ppm Fe. Is that lean, ei or something in-between?

If my plants aren't wanting anything then it's technically ei, like zeus suggests above, I'm ESTIMATING what my plants require. To me I dose leaner than Ada tanks when we think of potassium, does this mean I'm ultra lean lol.

As a collective we need to move past the numbers and accept different strokes work for different folks.
 
The same can be said for "lean" dosing.

Problem is people fixate on numbers and labels. I dose my tank with 9ppm No3, 7 ppm K, 3ppm P04 and 0.3 ppm Fe. Is that lean, ei or something in-between?

If my plants aren't wanting anything then it's technically ei, like zeus suggests above, I'm ESTIMATING what my plants require. To me I dose leaner than Ada tanks when we think of potassium, does this mean I'm ultra lean lol.

As a collective we need to move past the numbers and accept different strokes work for different folks.
Nice post and agreed. And to further complicate things you need to look at these numbers in relation to the tank getting discussed. My dosing might almost seem lean in relation to my plant mass and all the weeds I keep.

Yours looks like something in between to me. But then again if the tank were lightly planted with few stems it could be rich in relation to that tank.

And yes I have not seen a one size fits all dosing method yet. IMO opinion it's better to have less focus on dosing and more on looking at the tank holistically. Many times when people ask for dosing advice their problem is something else entirely. Beware of people who only focus on dosing. A planted tank is a lot more than that.
 
IMO opinion it's better to have less focus on dosing and more on looking at the tank holistically.
IDD, plants will tell you what they need if you do your homework or just dose a little more, it doesn't need to be rocket science. Leaner dosing which is still in abundance as great as it saves the environment with a smaller carbon footprint and saves us cash, the former is for our grandchildren and the later for me
 
Yours looks like something in between to me. But then again if the tank were lightly planted with few stems it could be rich in relation to that tank
Mines a bit of an oddity, mass of plants with low lightning, and gravel.. ie no piggy bank, low K dosing.
Leaner dosing which is still in abundance as great as it saves the environment.

And for me being a Lancashire lad (tighter than the Scots for our American friends) it saves me money 😀
 

100 ml Tropica Plant Growth Specialized to your 300L aquarium adds:
Element ppm/degree
N 4.46667
P 0.33333
Mg 1.30000
K 3.43333
S 3.03333
Fe 0.23000
Mn 0.13000
B 0.01333
Cu 0.02000
Mo 0.00667
Zn 0.00667
Cl 1.66667

most of the inspiration tanks are dosed by users themselves rather than what doses are recommended by Tropica themselves. again lets compare how this tank was dosed above, they targeted 4.46 N for weekly Dose, now lets take a look at Marchner Ratio adding the same amount of N, the K would be around 3 ppm, in case of Tropica it is 3.43 ppm K. same for Fe and Mn ratio which is close to 2:1

now all you have to do is compare the ppm being dosed by Higher dosing such as EI and then compare it with these numbers and you will find a huge gap in most of these elements. some being overly excessive and some under dosed. furthermore, EI uses KNO3 while Tropica is using Urea/NH4. EI tank dosed at almost 20 ppm NO3 (4.46 N) vs 4.46 N as Urea/Nh4 where tank dosed with Urea/Nh4 will grow plant many times faster, the end result is very little buildup with Tropica because Po4 will be fully exhausted, K will be almost fully used due to the higher N ratio, Fe and Mn and other traces are either fully used or some get oxidized or get precipitated. Tropica is smart enough to use higher N and smart enough to provide it in a way that the plant utilize it at much faster rate, faster the N uptake, the faster the other nutrients will be up taken, they kept the P low to make sure it render 0 quickly due to fast uptake of N. overall, the end result is very little to no nutrients left in the water column.

also, Tropica themselves have said that overdosing their fertilizer will cause algae, the tanks we are seeing in those pictures and free of algae.

what people missed from the Marchner ratio experiment is that even at higher dosing plant didn't get stunt, instead they grew very fast, the major difference was it used different ratio and different source of N vs EI, where EI used KNO3 and different ratio. where EI adds many times more nutrients while the other two system are no where close those numbers. K being one of the good example here.

the 3 ppm N weekly recommendation is based on my personal experience, this was designed to ensure you are growing plants without adding too much or too little, while at the same time keeping it lean, reducing water changes. I have no problem even if someone was adding 4 or 6 ppm N weekly, long as they were dosing similar to Tropica. if you were using Tropica and using 6 ppm N weekly, you will see less problems and less stunting due to the way its designed to work in term of ratio and type of N it uses, if you were to dose 6 ppm N from NO3, you will start to see problems in some plants immediately. this is where reducing the overall NO3 is helpful, same is true for K, you can dose 5,10,20 it doesn't matter to me, but some plant will start to show problems at some point. like I said this problem is also reduced if high K was combined with Urea/NH4. for EI users they might highly benefit if they were to dose the EI in half and dosed at smaller doses daily. I can understand that some users are still going to use KNO3 instead of Urea/NH4, long as they keep the overall NO3 low, they should see less problems.

far as starting my own journal, honestly I have no time for such experiment as life is too busy with family now. the tank still have that osmosote issue that I posted in another thread and I just left the tank alone to let it do its own thing. at some point maybe I will consider setting up the experiment again but during this time, there is no free time to do so. honestly, I don't think I need to repeat these experiment again because they have already been done before. many people here on this forum are already going to try this similar approach, some are already posting their results and sharing the outcomes, at this point we can observe their tanks.

once again, I have grown plants in multiple different methods, dosing, fertilizers and ratios. I can grow them in 3 or even 8 ppm N, but I decided to settle at 3 ppm N as I found it to be more beneficial and my main source of N is Urea/NH4, not NO3. I also try to maintain the ratio similar to Tropica or Marchner as mentioned before.

goal of this thread is to let the people explore different approaches and then they can decide for themselves weather they want to continue with the older approach or the new one. we have some members who actually went far as making their own fertilizer while some actually picked up a bottle of Tropica to test this approach, they will eventually report the results here on the forum. take a look at #142 for example

am still trying to understand why EI wants to take credit for lean dosing when someone might be using Tropica? maybe I should call EI dosing the Hoagland solution when reduced into 10x dose so credit goes to the people who came up with The Hoagland solution. At the end of day I wonder which fertilizing method is not EI.
 
Well I'll be blunt. I don't see much evidence other than talking and talking and recipes all over the place. If you call that convincing evidence then fine.

Hi @Hanuman, Well, come on now, I never implied I was convinced by the talking and the recipes... Just to give you an example of what I find compelling:

1649175657213.png

From Sudipta's intro post

To me, convincing evidence would be pictures after picture of full tanks taken month after month. That's the only evidence I am willing to accept.

Yup same here! And that is why I have taken the open-minded approach and made the plunge to try it out myself to see if I can replicate the results to a satisfying extent in one of my tanks. For me personally, that's the final arbiter - and not what the nay-sayers and opponents, who demands all the hard evidence (without an inclination to try it out for themselves), is writing on an Internet forum.

If I can grow more challenging stem-plants in my tanks by making a few tweaks here and there and sort out the wheat from the chaff in terms of what actually makes a difference then I have made progress and that is the only thing that matters to me. I couldn't really care less what label we put on the approach, whether its new or old or whomever came up with the idea or how far behind its trailing... all that is just argumentative vanity in my opinion.

That's not what is being argued. The problem is replicability at larger scale and time and this seems to be avoided over and over again in discussions of lean dosing.

Well, what are we arguing then? That is what I sometimes wonder... In one breath we are asking for large scale evidence over time to prove the viability of lean dosing and in the second breath we are saying that lean dosing is not really that lean and not much different from a somewhat watered-down EI regime with some tweaks to ratios etc... which in fact may actually be the case, by and large, in many practical instances.

Anyway, I thought I had something more to say, but I think I will just let it rest here.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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If I can grow more challenging stem-plants in my tanks by making a few tweaks here and there
I think, big question mark here ? The difference between our tanks and sudipta's is plant mass plant selection and tank style.. sudipta's beautiful tank works because its shallow, has decent trickle filter flow, low temperatures and a fantastic selection of plants. The dosing regime on this tank is secondary.

The magic above comes from sudipta's knowledge. I feel even with the "perfect" dosing strategy our "eclectic" tanks would fail.

Don't forget I'm holding your hand in this rabbit hole mate. Currently seeing @Happi as the mad hatter and @GreggZ as the Cheshire cat. The king of hearts aka Clive awaits in the shadows 😄
 
I think, big question mark here ? The difference between our tanks and sudipta's is plant mass plant selection and tank style.. sudipta's beautiful tank works because its shallow, has decent trickle filter flow, low temperatures and a fantastic selection of plants. The dosing regime on this tank is secondary.

Hi John, sure thing... I am sort of in tune with Sudipta's overall tank parameters. As of last night when I checked: 23 C/73.5F, ~3.5 GH, almost absent KH, 6.2 pH. This 40 US Gallon (150 L) tank is pretty shallow'ish as well. L 36" x H 16" x D 18". Mature substrate and terrific flow throughout the tank. (NO-CO2). My TDS is still pretty high as I haven't fully "detoxed" the tank from my previous fertilizer regime :) ... I am doing another large WC today. I received a bunch of (mostly root-less :( ) stem plants yesterday and they are currently floating around to assimilate.

Don't forget I'm holding your hand in this rabbit hole mate. Currently seeing @Happi as the mad hatter and @GreggZ as the Cheshire cat. The king of hearts aka Clive awaits in the shadows 😄
:lol: ... Yes! Well, I still have one totally traditional EI dosed (with a few tweaks) tank, which is still running great btw.; zero-algae, excellent plant health etc. very low light, excellent flow throughout, rigorous maintenance and very, very stable water parameters! ... So heck yeah, that works too!:lol:

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Don't forget I'm holding your hand in this rabbit hole mate. Currently seeing @Happi as the mad hatter and @GreggZ as the Cheshire cat. The king of hearts aka Clive awaits in the shadows 😄
LOL I love it!

Keep in mind these type of arguments have been going on for decades. There are always groups claiming you must do this, you must do that, you must not do this, you must not do that. I've heard and seen them all.

For some reason there is a group of people that think there must be a "secret" that only a few know and therein lies the key to a successful tank. The funny thing is there are fantastic examples of tanks from all over the world that are very easy to find and they freely share how they manage their tanks. The best advice for anyone is to seek out folks who demonstrate success then study their methods. When you do you find that dosing is only a small part of what makes them successful. If you ask ten of the best plant growers in the world what they think of the Marschner ratio they would go "huh? What's that?".

But hey I've been waiting for someone to create a really great example of a tank following this method for many, many years. So I am rooting for those that are trying and am looking forward to seeing the results.
 
we have talked about Marschner ratio but some people might not be aware that this ratio is based on plant tissue analysis, Tropica Specialized have an identical ratio to Marschner ratio and some people are claiming that Marschner ratio as an fertilizer and that it's a failure, while Tropica Specialized is a great aquatic plant fertilizer when both Marschner and Tropica have the identical ratio and Tropica Specialized is widely used by many plant grower around the world including some of the greatest Aquascapers such as George Farmer.

Tropica_Specialized_vs_Tissue_Ref_to_1ppm_NO3.png
 
we have talked about Marschner ratio but some people might not be aware that this ratio is based on plant tissue analysis, Tropica Specialized have an identical ratio to Marschner ratio and some people are claiming that Marschner ratio as an fertilizer and that it's a failure, while Tropica Specialized is a great aquatic plant fertilizer when both Marschner and Tropica have the identical ratio and Tropica Specialized is widely used by many plant grower around the world including some of the greatest Aquascapers such as George Farmer.
And there are also a large number of very knowledgeable people who say tissue analysis has little or nothing to do with the best dosing ratios.

I like George Farmer. He's a very nice, well accomplished guy. I admire what he has done in the hobby. But it would be no surprise that most of his tanks could get by with little to no nutrients. In general he's doesn't create many Dutch inspired plant centric stem intensive tanks. His tanks are usually good examples of where lean dosing would work, as in general they have few if any demanding plants. Like others who create similar displays, it seems to be more focused on the art than plant growing. And nothing wrong with that they are beautiful.
 
Tropica themselves have said that overdosing their fertilizer will cause algae
Algae from ferts in abundance :eek:. @ceg4048 was dosing his tank 3 to 4 times EI dose and the only thing he notice was the plants looked even healthier/better.

far as starting my own journal, honestly I have no time for such experiment

Doesn't take long and it is always good to see others scapes/plants ;)
 
Tropica Specialized is widely used by many plant grower around the world including some of the greatest Aquascapers such as George Farmer.
Who also get sponsored for using it and probably get it free to boot . 'ferts are ferts' and plants aren't fussy about brands.
One advantage of Tropica fert range is we have the full breakdown of it so pretty easy to clone if happy to do DIY traces - just dont use KNO3 as only source of N (24% of N is the limit when cloning TSN for KNO3) otherwise the K levels will exceed a TSN dose;)
 
Algae from ferts in abundance :eek:. @ceg4048 was dosing his tank 3 to 4 times EI dose and the only thing he notice was the plants looked even healthier/better.
have Clive post those pics for me and I will point out the algae and stunted growth on several plants, just like I and others have pointed it somewhere in this thread. Clive still haven't answered the question that some of us asked him last time regarding some of the plants and the algae on his plants.

Doesn't take long and it is always good to see others scapes/plants
its hard to do so when you have kids and new born to take care. few years ago, it was a completely different story. But I will try to find some time to setup this experiment again. hopefully by then members of this forum would already have enough evidence so I no longer have to repeat those experiments again. plus if you are dosing Tropica, then you are already doing my experiment.
 
On the contents of NH4 and NO3 in Tropica Specialized:

TropicaSpecilizedNH4-NO3-2.jpg


Happi asked me to conduct this experiment independently. This is just about a drop of Tropica Specialized in ~500 ml of RO+DI water. (I did a null test to make sure there was no reaction from just the pure RO water).

There might be variations on the amount of NO3 and NH4 among batches of Tropica Specialized . Some previous tests suggest batches without NO3. As we all know, API's NO3 test kit is not the most reliable and often shows values higher than is actually present (and who to say if this is ~8 ppm or ~18 ppm ?), so take the NO3 measurement with a grain of salt.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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@MichaelJ

thanks for testing this, we were mainly testing to see if Tropica used NH4NO3 or Urea in your batch, it appear as they must have used NH4NO3 in your case. some member who tested this, they showed 0 NO3 and high amount of NH4, Tropica either used all NH4 from other source or all Urea in their cases. I hope other members test their Tropica and post the results here so we could rule this out further. API test kit is fine for this purpose, we are just trying to get some kind of reading here. I think ADA also did something similar

3 ppm N from Tropica Specialized would add the following if it was all NH4NO3:
6.127 ppm NO3
1.8 ppm NH4

6 ppm N from Tropica Specialized would add the following if it was all NH4NO3:
12.25 ppm NO3
3.6 ppm NH4
 
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Algae from ferts in abundance :eek:. @ceg4048 was dosing his tank 3 to 4 times EI dose and the only thing he notice was the plants looked even healthier/better.



Doesn't take long and it is always good to see others scapes/plants ;)
even clive says using organic source of N or nh4no3 can cause algae, so I'm not sure what you mean here. tropica contain urea or nh4no3 (or both) so overdosing can definitely cause algae and I don't think even clive would disagree.
and plants aren't fussy about brands.
well, this one depends. some brands may use different sources of N, different ratio, different chelators so it does have some importance.
Doesn't take long and it is always good to see others scapes/plants ;)
Agree with this one!
 
Could @Happi or someone provide the full reference for these Marschner ratios? I have gathered these are taken from plant tissue analysis in the third edition of Marschner's Mineral Nutrition of Higher Plants, but can I get the chapter and page? I would like to understand the context they are presented in and don't want to go on a wild goose chase.
 
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