Maq's experiment 23b

[Wookii]

The substrate is matured. I believe it's better this way. Newly established tanks suffer from algae quite regularly. Who can tell, then, what is the result of using ammonium?

True - I think we could argue it either way. If we hypothesise that algal blooms might result from instability in the system, of which the sudden presence of ammonium could be a trigger, to isolate the possibility of ammonium being the trigger, we want to maximise the impact of that instability which an immature substrate will aid.

By comparison, if your substrates are fully matured, and further inhabited by nitrifying organisms who are used to operating in higher than typical levels of ammonium due to that being your typical ammonia dosing regime (I believe it has been shown that the typical microbial population differs depending on the prevailing levels of ammonia) - the result could be a fair bit different compared to someone who's matured substrate isn't typically exposed to measurable levels of ammonia, and then sees a sudden spike in ammonia levels.

My point being your mature substrate's higher levels of ammonia processing microbes will have a greater ability to deal with the higher ammonia levels and help maintain tank stability. Whether that is enough to edge out algaes competitive advantage remains to be seen, but it is a variable that could skew the final result and would be removed with a fresh substrate. Perhaps worth considering for a future experiment if not this time.

It is part of the reason why I asked if you could measure ammonia (and nitrate) levels just before each waster change, as it may provide some insight into the substrates contribution to handling the relative ammonia loads.

 

[Wookii]

So, the real questions are:
(1) In Tank C - more or less potassium?
(2) In Tank C - more or less magnesium?
(3) In Tank C - more or less calcium?
Please, will you express your opinion on these specific questions?

Standard EI levels are:

Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week

Those are for a CO2 injected tank though, and they are not hard rules, really just maximum required levels if CO2 and light are perfectly optimised for maximum growth levels. We have to remember the key word is 'Estimative' - the dosing is estimated simply to be sure that an excess of each nutrient remains at water change.

 

[_Maq_]

if your substrates are fully matured, and further inhabited by nitrifying organisms who are used to operating in higher than typical levels of ammonium due to that being your typical ammonia dosing regime (I believe it has been shown that the typical microbial population differs depending on the prevailing levels of ammonia) - the result could be a fair bit different compared to someone who's matured substrate isn't typically exposed to measurable levels of ammonia,

I agree fully. I can just add that to certain level of ammonia all tanks/substrates are adapted, esp. if inhabited by fish (which are missing here).
Right now, for two months I've dosed 28 µM (0.5 mg/l) ammonium in all of them. In the same pattern I've described for this experiment. So, we can settle on an assessment that all the tanks are adapted to low/moderate ammonium load. Tank D will surely be a shocking increase for which microbial community is unprepared.

 

[John q]

Standard EI levels are:

Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week

Tank C: Why not keep it simple @_Maq_ and front load 50% of this. Adjust the calcium to whatever ratio you see fit.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Bucephelandra can also shed leaves when exposed to excess ammonia, or at least that is the unqualified theory

Definitely looks true for Anubias <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/my-unfortunate-vacation-experience-and-who-dun-it.12705"> (which is also an Aroid). I'm going to guess most plants <"would be more tolerant">.

........ and a large Anubias barteri "Nana", both of these, even though in the water, had totally disintegrated, with the entire rhizome gone (the leaves themselves looked OK)........

.....when I started scooping the sand out I found a number of empty little orange "controlled release" fertiliser prills, and there used to be a jar of these in the kitchen (for the house plants).

I've definitely never added them to the tank, so I assume they were the cause of the incidents in 2010.

It is also worth bearing in mind the ammonia burn also seems to happen more in newly set-up tanks with fresh aquasoil, where the ammonia levels at the substrate level, and within the first centimetre or two, could be a lot higher than your tank D dosing levels.

That is the difficulty, knowing what level of ammonia (NH3) they were exposed to, and for how long. The transitory nature of most "ammonia events" mean that you would have to catch it in the act, to directly relate ammonia to damage.

There are <"figures from wastewater treatment"> which show that Eichornia and Pistia etc can deal with huge TAN loadings.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

Standard EI levels are:

Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week

So, we have 16 ppm NO3 equivalent, then potassium should be 24 ppm and magnesium 8 ppm. May I take it for your suggestion? And what about calcium?

 

[MichaelJ]

See original post. I do not aim at any target concentration, I take it for senseless.

Senseless as it might be, you are dosing something I suppose:

However, I always dose micros identically in all tanks at the same time.

How much are you dosing then? Fe for instance?

magnesium 8 ppm. May I take it for your suggestion? And what about calcium?

A common Ca:Mg ratio is 3:1 ... so that would make it 24 ppm of Ca.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Andy Pierce]

So, we have 16 ppm NO3 equivalent, then potassium should be 24 ppm and magnesium 8 ppm. May I take it for your suggestion? And what about calcium?

I'm really looking forward to seeing how your experiment turns out! For what it's worth, in my high-tech EI setup I have weekly dosing of 15 ppm nitrate, 25 ppm potassium and
5 ppm magnesium. I also ensure dosing incorporates 7 ppm phosphate which I'm reasonably happy has some effect on suppressing green algae. This won't at all be the same as your C) however because I dose into Cambridgeshire tap water which lists NO3 at 30 ppm, Mg around 5 ppm and calcium around 120 ppm (if I read the reports correctly). In my low tech set-up without injected CO2 gas I reduce EI ferts by only dosing once per week rather than 3 times per week.

Have you ever done a "liquid carbon" (glutaraldehyde) vs. no liquid carbon comparison? You have the perfect setup for it.

 

[_Maq_]

How much are you dosing then? Fe for instance?

Roughly 0.00837675 mg/l Fe, usually two days before WC. (You made me to calculate it, I'm using quite different units for micros.)

 

[John q]

Hopefully I'm misreading something here.

I always dose micros identically in all tanks at the same time.

Roughly 0.00837675 mg/l Fe

Is this what you plan to dose in tank C? If so then not exactly prescriptive to ei.

 

[hypnogogia]

Roughly 0.00837675

Roughly, to 8 decimal place. 🤣

 

[MichaelJ]

Roughly 0.00837675 mg/l Fe, usually two days before WC.

That is not a lot to say the least... I've come to realize that my Lean tank can get by with 0.032 ppm/wk (very soft acidic water close to zero alkalinity) - that now seems heavy handed compared to your levels why do you dose two days before WC? That seems a bit unusual.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

Roughly, to 8 decimal place. 🤣

Your obviously being cavalier with your dosing - get a real scale @hypnogogia - like everyone else here No?

 

[plantnoobdude]

0.016 ppm Fe weekly in very high tech weekly here. So I would say maqs numbers seem even perhaps a bit high in low tech. I would not expect low tech to use anywhere near half as much as my tank.

 

[hypnogogia]

Your obviously being cavalier with your dosing - get a real scale @hypnogogia - like everyone else here No?

I’ll have two please, or one of these:

 

[_Maq_]

So, I've tried to meet your suggestions concerning tank C. I've also re-balanced Mg and Ca in other tanks, for convenience (stock solutions) and to meet your 1:3 ratio.
Now, don't tell me that I didn't warn you: Your potassium dose for tank C is a killer. Tonina, Ammannia and Rotala wallichii won't grow, Hygrophila corymbosa will demonstrate "beautiful" chlorosis. Other species may suffer, too. Yet I'm full ready to go for it. You'll see with your own eyes.
Can we settle on this?

 

[_Maq_]

That is not a lot to say the least...

That's my basic dose. It may be twice as much if I see fit. I told you that talking about my micro dosing is senseless.

why do you dose two days before WC? That seems a bit unusual.

With WC I add phosphorus. Before WC, phosphorus is largely gone and that's the right time to dose Fe and other metals.
At least such is my reasoning, and it usually works well. Not all the time, of course, there are always some issues to fix, improve... it's a living matter, one never knows exactly.

 

[MichaelJ]

Can we settle on this?

Personally, I am excited to follow A and B as they are very close to my own lean tank - so I will likely be able to draw some experience from this I can apply directly to that tank (you doing all the hard work )

Although the numbers in C seems much more in line with EI now (EI Experts?) I do have some reservations due to the very low trace (Fe) amounts in this EI tank.

Not quite sure what I think of D - perhaps it would make sense to have D identical to C - while keeping the high NH4 in D.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Your potassium dose for tank C is a killer. Tonina, Ammannia and Rotala wallichii won't grow, Hygrophila corymbosa will demonstrate "beautiful" chlorosis. Other species may suffer, too. Yet I'm full ready to go for it. You'll see with your own eyes.

Personally, I am excited to follow A and B as they are very close to my own lean tank - so I will likely be able to draw some experience from this I can apply directly to that tank

Yes, bring it on. I've got no idea what will happen, but I'm definitely along for the ride.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

I do have some reservations due to the very low trace (Fe) amounts in this EI tank.

I'm quite flexible with micros, esp. iron. Whenever I suspect iron deficiency, I increase dosing.
I'll try my best to avoid iron deficiency, the more so magnesium deficiency can be misinterpreted as iron deficit. I really don't want this to happen.
Yet my standing principle is that I dose ALL micros (each separately) always the same in all tanks at the same moment. To maintain compatibility. In that way, if p.e. iron deficiency occurs in one tank but not the others, we may deduce that something (higher pH, higher alkalinity, higher phosphates, ...) hindered iron uptake.
If pH gets close to or above 7.0 in any of the tanks (I'm not sure whether it may happen with mineralization like this), species like Bacopa lanigera or Tonina fluviatilis will probably die due iron deficiency - no matter how much iron I provide. Some species are simply unable to uptake/assimilate iron upon higher pH or alkalinity.
I should remind you that I don't use any chelates. FeCl3 is my iron fertilizer.
---
Tomorrow I'll prepare stock solutions, supposedly Saturday will be the Day Zero. Hopefully on Sunday I'll take first set of pics, and post them here.
I expect the duration of this experiment to be between 60 to 120 days. Without CO2 injection, plants' responses usually take some time. I usually run three to four experiments per year.