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Micronutrient toxicity.. or deficiency.. ? Pls help.

rusticdr

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Hi all, It is a good point, they don't enjoy being bashed around.
I'm not sure about what's in the aquarium based literature, but there is scientific research that shows that you get holes in the leaves with iron deficiency, in Lemna it is one of the first signs of iron deficiency. iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn), are the two most likely, and are both involved in chlorophyll synthesis.

I would be very, very surprised if it isn't an iron deficiency.

I do get what u r saying and I did read through the link that u provided. Have ordered florin fe which contains both edta and gluconated forms. But the thing is that I have dosing iron regularly only recently.. probably last couple of months. Before that I used to skip dosing for weeks together. But my plants grew without these peculiar changes. Especially the l. Aromatica blossomed well. If course it used to grow well and then lost all it's bottom leaves and finally the stem used to melt away. That was again a time when I used all 4 lights too. Manganese def was in the back of my mind though.. the holes in some of the plants like the korymbosa compacta r intervenular.
9cca754fd0bdf459a11223d67b35a8e1.jpg

If u look closely there u can c those holes. But again I am just speculating. Maybe as Clive said there is probably more than one problem here.
I will post a video soon for the flow.

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rusticdr

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I went back to the images to study them more closely to see if it's possible to change some things around.
As you may know, my standard technique is to use a spraybars across the length of the back wall and to point them forward. It's my belief that this is the best starting point and that if supplementary pumps are added then they should be place in a location that best augments the flow pattern created by the spraybars.

What I see in those first images with the pump placement, I must say that I disagree with the placement, but, maybe they were OK for a while until the going got rough, when things got a bit thicker (more dense foliage).

I can just make out one green spraybar in image #2 but it looks crooked and I cannot see if it extends all the way across the back.

It also appears that you have two Koralias pointing in opposite direction, one at the front left and the other at the rear right. This is never a good arrangement because each pump actually cancels the flow of the other. All pumps are most effective when they all push together in the same direction. It's not clear to me what vision you had in mind with this particular pump arrangement. Again, you might have gotten away with this with a lighter plant mass, but as the mass increases, I believe it becomes less effective.

Cheers,

Thanks so much for taking the time and effort. Yes.. I got the idea of placing the spray bars on the back from one of ur posts. The green spray bar s eheim and it's a little slanted cos it was pretty close to the surface and didn't want the co2 coming out to reach the surface quickly. The reactor is inline with the eheim. The other black spray bar u can c well in the first 2 pics. So these two make the water flow to the front then down and then backwards.
The wavemakers r 800 gph sunsun models. Thought of placing them in the back too but they were just too powerful. So the front one is facing right and it's placed very close to the front glass. The rear one is very close to the rear glass facing left. So it's a anti clockwise movement when viewed from top. I did look for cancellation of flow by the way free leaves on top and inside the water drifted around. They would follow the circular movement.
I do accept that since the eheim has the inline reactor and the sunsun canister both have low flow velocity from their spray bars. That s what made me place those wavemakers. But the only area then that would have low flow in the centre of the tank. I am manifesting deficiency symptoms in all over and in areas where is actually good flow.
That s what puzzles me. Think a video will help.
Cheers.

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ceg4048

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The green spray bar s eheim and it's a little slanted cos it was pretty close to the surface and didn't want the co2 coming out to reach the surface quickly.
If you slant the bar you basically cancel out it's effect.
About 90% of the CO2 we inject never makes it to the plants. This is just a reality we have to live with, but you have to set the bars up so that they deliver the flow in the right direction. Changing their angles is counterproductive.

The wavemakers r 800 gph sunsun models. Thought of placing them in the back too but they were just too powerful. So the front one is facing right and it's placed very close to the front glass. The rear one is very close to the rear glass facing left. So it's a anti clockwise movement when viewed from top. I did look for cancellation of flow by the way free leaves on top and inside the water drifted around. They would follow the circular movement.
You cannot play ping pong with water. It doesn't cooperate. You must place your auxiliary pumps on the back wall to augment the flow of the spraybars. This is especially important if the spraybar flow rate is weak. If the model of pump you have selected is too strong, then try to find pumps that are not too strong. I can tell right away from your description that the flow is chaotic and will only randomly deliver CO2/nutrients to where they are needed.

Again, I'm not saying that the configuration I suggest is guaranteed to work - there are just too many variables - but for sure you will need to resolve your distribution.
If u look closely there u can c those holes.
Holes and deterioration in submerges plants are ALWAYS a symptom of poor CO2. You do not need to look anywhere else. In fact, I'm 100% certain that this is why we continue to have problems, because it is just too convenient to conclude that CO2 and flow/distribution are good, therefore the problem must be something else.
But the plants do not lie and they do not change their response to deficiency just because it is a convenient denial for the hobbyist. You must solve your distribution and get the proper amount of CO2 to the areas of the tank where CO2 is deficient.

Cheers,
 

rusticdr

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These were short clips I took today morning. This was after three days of no ferts as I was away from town. I changed my water in the morning 50%. Then as I was adding water I also mixed 3 tsps of equilibrium. This amt of pearling at just two lights and that too so early in the day I have not witnessed in some time. And that too every plant showed the same features irrrspective of location. Cos this was just an hr or so after lights on and the drop checker was still blue. Wat do u guys think.. //cloud.tapatalk.com/s/59d24c6bd47da/20171002_102855.mp4//cloud.tapatalk.com/s/59d24d7407012/20171002_102926.mp4

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dw1305

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Hi all,
And that too every plant showed the same features irrrspective of location. Cos this was just an hr or so after lights on and the drop checker was still blue. Wat do u guys think.
Because of the circumstances it may just be that the water change water was cooler than the tank water, and as <"it has warmed up"> the dissolved gases have come out of solution.

cheers Darrel
 

rusticdr

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Nope. It was definitely pearling. The bubbles were coming out of the leaves. The undersurface and tips. Am pretty sure of that. I am not adding anything today. Just want to c what happens.

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rusticdr

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If you slant the bar you basically cancel out it's effect.
About 90% of the CO2 we inject never makes it to the plants. This is just a reality we have to live with, but you have to set the bars up so that they deliver the flow in the right direction. Changing their angles is counterproductive.

I corrected the slant.

You cannot play ping pong with water. It doesn't cooperate. You must place your auxiliary pumps on the back wall to augment the flow of the spraybars. This is especially important if the spraybar flow rate is weak. If the model of pump you have selected is too strong, then try to find pumps that are not too strong.

Ping pong is to and fro. What I have created is two circular pattern. Outer horizontal plane and inner vertical if u view from top. Don't think it's the same cos if it's all counter current it will just create turbulence and cancel put the flow. And I try to work with the materials I have and only when I am convinced there s something absolutely wrong with the flow will I consider buying smaller powerheads.

Holes and deterioration in submerges plants are ALWAYS a symptom of poor CO2. You do not need to look anywhere else. In fact, I'm 100% certain that this is why we continue to have problems, because it is just too convenient to conclude that CO2 and flow/distribution are good, therefore the problem must be something else.
But the plants do not lie and they do not change their response to deficiency just because it is a convenient denial for the hobbyist. You must solve your distribution and get the proper amount of CO2 to the areas of the tank where CO2 is deficient.

Cheers,

Let's say that I agree it's co2 then why have my frogbits all but disappeared. Pls don't tell me it's due to excess flow cos that's the way it has been for a long time and back then they were flourishing so much i was dumping them into the waste on a weekly basis. One more thing.. after I started this thread I transferred just one frogbit into my nano4g low tech to c how it does. The flow on the surface of the nano s tremendous and the frogbit s constantly thrown around with submerged leaves. But I think it's recovering. Spotted a healthy new leaf. Wil keep u posted on that.

Pls don't mistake me for my arguments. I know that I am just a novice but if I accept all u say without questions then I am not truly learning and there s always a very small chance that I may be right bcos I am seeing all this first hand. Thanks again. Pls keep posting. Cheers.



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rusticdr

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Just an update on what's happening.
What I have changed:
1. Increased the co2.. I have added a second 4kg cylinder in addition to the pre-existing 3 kg. The former has been connected to an in tank ista ceramic diffuser which leads the bubbles into a power head and forms a fine mist (Pls see pic). The 3 kg is still connected to the ista in line co2 reactor coming out of the spray bar. Both cylinders r set at 6 to 7 bps and come one 4 hrs before lights on giving a nice green at lights in the DC and almost yellow at lights off. Fish seem fine.
2. I have added a smaller power head at the back facing forward at the centre between the two spray bars to enhance forward circulation.
3. I have switched from using approximate quantities of dry chems with a teaspoon to using a calibrated scoop and dosing according to rotala butterfly ei dosing guide.
I am adding mgso4 even though my water report says it has sufficient Mg bcos I believe the plants more than the testing company.

Results:
1. Rotala indica and hygrophila corymbosa compacta seem to have improved.
2. Other plants show marginal or nil change.
3. Rotala rotundifolia red did improve but it was in pretty bad already.
4. Frogbits still going downhill but not as rapidly.

I have also taken two frogbits placed one in a small vessel with tank water and placed the other in a similar sized vessel with tap water. Kept both of these in sunlight. If both do well then it's flow of water which is killing them. If tap water frogbit dies then we know I need more ferts. If tank water dies.. probably something wrong with what I am dosing. If both die.. I will restart that experiment. What else can I do.

I plan to increase co2 further this weekend to c at what point fished start to struggle and then crank down a little. The question s whether I need to go to that point. I know a lot of you have given ur inputs and valuable time. Hope i have not offended anyone by questioning your opinions.. just trying to present my side of it. Pls give ur valuable suggestions. Thank u.


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ceg4048

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The former has been connected to an in tank ista ceramic diffuser which leads the bubbles into a power head and forms a fine mist
Hi, you might also want to consider switching to an external reactor for both of the cylinders. In tank schemes don't work so well for that size tank. If you must have the units in tank then they would do a better job being fed to to the filter intake.

I have added a smaller power head at the back facing forward at the centre between the two spray bars to enhance forward circulation.
I recall that you had two pwerheads facing in opposite directions, did you not? I still suggest that you place those under your spraybars. They are not doing you any good where there at the sides of the tank.

I have switched from using approximate quantities of dry chems with a teaspoon to using a calibrated scoop and dosing according to rotala butterfly ei dosing guide.
This will have zero effect. Plants do not care about precision.

Both cylinders r set at 6 to 7 bps and come one 4 hrs before lights on giving a nice green at lights in the DC and almost yellow at lights off. Fish seem fine.
This is not really good. It should not take 4 hours to accomplish saturation. The fact that the DC goes yellow well into the photoperiod is further indication that something is going wrong either in your dissolution technique or in your flow/distribution method.

The proper technique is to perform a pH profile and see if you can get a 1 pH drop by the time the lights go on.

It's also a good idea to give the tank a good trim to give yourself some breathing room while you fix your CO2.

Cheers,
 

rusticdr

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Hey Clive.. Thank you so much for your feedback. Was hoping you would say something. Means a lot. Anyway here goes..

Hi, you might also want to consider switching to an external reactor for both of the cylinders. In tank schemes don't work so well for that size tank. If you must have the units in tank then they would do a better job being fed to to the filter intake.

I installed the second cylinder cos I read Tom Barr saying somewhere that co2 misting was a good way for co2 delivery. Thought i will try that. C ant use a second reactor as the flow rate on the sunsun canister s a bit slow as it is. The filter intake sounds good. Wil c how this goes. If it doesn't improve wil try that.

I recall that you had two pwerheads facing in opposite directions, did you not? I still suggest that you place those under your spraybars. They are not doing you any good where there at the sides of the tank.
I tried placing the wavemaker as you have said but it was too powerful for that position at the back.. it's rated at 800gph. Have ordered a nano wavemaker instead to try that position.. I know u disagree with the way the flow goes in my tank rite now but there s no detritus anywhere except for the dead centre. Anyway will definitely try ur approach once the nano arrives.

This will have zero effect. Plants do not care about precision.
I agree. Just didn't wanna overdose.. I know that overdosing is tye basis of EI but I am kinda paranoid rite now. U know.. nothing seems to work. So pls ignore that. :)

This is not really good. It should not take 4 hours to accomplish saturation. The fact that the DC goes yellow well into the photoperiod is further indication that something is going wrong either in your dissolution technique or in your flow/distribution method.

Yes.. this is something I too am worried abt.. I checked for leakage and that's fine. I am trying to get a pH meter. The fact is that there s so much misting and the diffuser has a bubble counter in it so i can see the bubbles hitting the undersurface of the ceramic disc. and it's not correlating with the DC. Wil keep u posted on that pH meter.

The proper technique is to perform a pH profile and see if you can get a 1 pH drop by the time the lights go on.
It's also a good idea to give the tank a good trim to give yourself some breathing room while you fix your CO2.
,
I trimmed as much as possible. Have attached pic. That experiment with the frogbits is taking it's time. Both look bad. Read some threads on phosphates. There was this guy from Turkey who doses almost 2 ppm of po4 every day. My current dosing leaves me with a total of 2 ppm at the end of the week. So I am trying my hand at daily dosing of 2 ppm too. What r ur thoughts on that. I know co2 is still my primary concern but I need to tackle the frogbits too cos all the plants in the tank have one thing in common including the frogbits... the new leaves r good and old leaves r unhealthy. I know co2 explains this. But why shud frogbits show the same. And there isnt that much agitation. The water surface s not broken at all.
I am at my wits end here. A part of me says what r u doing.. But another part wants to solve this and make a beautiful planted tank. On most days this tank s what keeps me going. Anyway thanks again for your feedback Clive. Big fan. :)
Wil post some close up shots soon.
Tc.
f7eeed55f56e31e764ea9e76261ddd25.jpg
ac71c5ed74edd4bc2dc417eb0bc81ab7.jpg
2cef0e4eb1187cf3b534fcec443e22f7.jpg


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vershinin_yury

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Hi there.
Your NPK level is too much for RO water.
You need to change 100% of water.
Then add booster, not equilibrium!!!,
for example Caso4 and MgCo3 1:4, for EI you need GH 6, something like 30ppm Ca 8ppm Mg,
if you'll use equilibrium you'll get skyhigh level of potassium.
Then you need to dose NPK day by day something like 3ppm of nitrate, 3ppm of potassium and 0.4 ppm of phosphorus,
then test it in the end of the week and adjust the dosage.
 

rusticdr

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I know this is an ancient thread but what happened in the end?
Hi, I should have updated this thread a long time back but I was figuring out a lot of things and its taken me almost 2.5 years to figure them out. Even now I have not solved all the issues in my tank but atleast I can now grow most of the plants I try. Specially limnophila aromatica which was my nemesis (I failed to grow that plant on 8 attempts) and also hygrophila pintadifida (which I never had success).
Now coming to the issues I had discussed in the thread:
1. Regarding micronutrient toxicity: Not sure about this anymore. There is something that definitely burnt up my rotala rotundifolia hi red.. its either high nitrates or micros. This is one of the last pieces of the puzzle i am yet to solve. its not co2 def because currently this plant resides right next to the co2 diffuser and gets max co2.
2. Regarding the duckweed index: Massive massive help. If any of u have any doubts whether u have issues either due to co2 or nutrient def.. this is a life saver. the reason for my frogbits to die off earlier was not due to high surface flow. It was insufficient phosphate. Looks like phosphate at EI recommended dosage isnt sufficient in my tank. I almost dose 10 ppm per week. And you can see those results in the pics attached here.
20190925_214755.jpg
20190925_214803.jpg


You can see that the frogbits look good now. So definitely a big help.. all those gaping holes in the submerged plants also disappeared.
3. Things I havent changed:
- I still have two co2 cylinders with two in tank diffusers placed at opposite ends of the tank with the same circular motion at the peripheries. So you can see that the water flow is almost the same. But where I was once going gung ho at 8 bps on both, I now only use 2-3 bps. Lime green indicators placed at two ends of the tank. pH drop is around 0.7 to 0.8..
- Lights : same 8 hrs photoperiod with 54 w T5HO. 2 x 6500 kelvin for 6hrs and all four (2x 6500k, 1x 10000K, 1 x 3500k) for 2 hours.
- filters : one eheim 2217 and one sunsun. cleaning once in 3 months. i know its a bit long but with the job and kids, thats the max i can do for now.

4. What I did change:
- I abandoned flourish and all other commercial products. Now I make up my own micros using guidance from two guys from TPT Greg and Burr. Dosing is limited as I am not sure whether the substrate is still leaching. Iron in this mixture is Fe DTPA.
- being liberal with Phosphate is one of the major differences and its made a lot of difference. Cut back on the nitrate and potassium (dont think that made any difference). And since my water is RO i am now being very liberal on magnesium (was using equilbrium earlier but my hardscape includes limestone rocks so guessing that it shud be giving out clalcium).

Unresolved issues:
Although most plants are growing now, staurogyne and rotala hi red arent doing well. other plants are still showing slightly unhealthy older leaves. so i am gradually increasing co2. if that doesnt work i am gonna increase my micros gradually as i have maxed out my macros already.

Anyway looking forwards to your comments and suggestions. Will keep you all posted.
 

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dw1305

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Hi all,
Specially limnophila aromatica which was my nemesis
Plant health looks really good in the images, they look like (a more colourful version of) the plants that @ceg4048 <"Clive owned">.

8394086227_51a9172cfd_b-jpg.jpg
You can see that the frogbits look good now.
Regarding the duckweed index: Massive massive help. If any of u have any doubts whether u have issues either due to co2 or nutrient def.. this is a life saver.
I'm really pleased the Duckweed Index has worked for you. <I'm biased>, but the great advantage of it is that you've taken CO2 and light availability out of the equation.

If it isn't too much hard work I'd pinch the old yellow leaves off the Frogbit. Once the leaves are yellow, and shaded, they aren't offering the plant anything. Usually in my tanks the snails clean them up as they start to decay, but in the tank, where the water is too soft for snails, I pick them off myself.

cheers Darrel
 
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HiNtZ

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Thanks for the update! That's what I like about this site - people seem to hang around.

I have just one question....

Since you use RO what are you doing about Cl?

I too use RO and reconstitute with GH booster from TNC (CaSO4/MgSO4/K2SO4) and had been adding chloride with ill effects (MgCl2 and CaCl2).

It seems that adding anything over 5ppm and I experience problems stunting and veiny leaves.

My parameters are 6GH, 2KH, 6PH.

Not saying that's the problem but I made a correlation through observation.

I'm sure there's something else at play here and I'm pretty sure now it's not a trace toxicity issue as if I stop dosing trace I show terrible deficiency after just a few days.

You're not the first I've heard has had better success with higher P doses. It's something I was going to try next.

Nitrogen was always on my mind, I've tried low medium and high doses. From 0ppm to 10ppm a day just to see what happens.

So basically if I dose N and trace at EI levels without dosing Cl, my N plummets while P remains quite stable.

This week and onward I am completely cutting out Cl. I'm thinking that there should be enough in the trace as impurities.

Also tried supplemental Ni, Zn and Mn with no changes.
 

rusticdr

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Thanks for the update! That's what I like about this site - people seem to hang around.

I have just one question....

Since you use RO what are you doing about Cl?

I too use RO and reconstitute with GH booster from TNC (CaSO4/MgSO4/K2SO4) and had been adding chloride with ill effects (MgCl2 and CaCl2).

It seems that adding anything over 5ppm and I experience problems stunting and veiny leaves.

My parameters are 6GH, 2KH, 6PH.

Not saying that's the problem but I made a correlation through observation.

I'm sure there's something else at play here and I'm pretty sure now it's not a trace toxicity issue as if I stop dosing trace I show terrible deficiency after just a few days.

You're not the first I've heard has had better success with higher P doses. It's something I was going to try next.

Nitrogen was always on my mind, I've tried low medium and high doses. From 0ppm to 10ppm a day just to see what happens.

So basically if I dose N and trace at EI levels without dosing Cl, my N plummets while P remains quite stable.

This week and onward I am completely cutting out Cl. I'm thinking that there should be enough in the trace as impurities.

Also tried supplemental Ni, Zn and Mn with no changes.
Hi.. thanks for your comment. True regarding the feedback of people who have faced issues so that we can get an idea on how to resolve similar issues which we may be having..
Anyway.. although I do use RO I have not replaced chloride at all. All my compounds were sulphate based. Checked my micro mix too.. not there. Hmm. Interesting. Will read up about the necessity of chloride. Maybe that's the missing link in my tank.
As of now.. it's just mgso4 that goes for the GH boost.
As far as dosing goes.. I am going sort of for a lean dosing which actually looks like it's working. When I started dosing my micros as per EI recommended levels using Burr's guide for micromix, I could immediately see the plants suffer. So everything is lean now except for phosphate which is higher than EI recommended levels around 5 ppm per week (lesser than my initial 10ppm per week).
I am still figuring it all out but as of now I am getting healthy growth with only a few niggles on the older leaves. Rotala rotundifolia recovering but staurogyne repens did not.
Will post pics soon.

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rusticdr

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Hi all,Plant health looks really good in the images, they look like (a more colourful version of) the plants that @ceg4048 <"Clive owned">.

8394086227_51a9172cfd_b-jpg.jpg
I'm really pleased the Duckweed Index has worked for you. <I'm biased>, but the great advantage of it is that you've taken CO2 and light availability out of the equation.

If it isn't too much hard work I'd pinch the old yellow leaves off the Frogbit. Once the leaves are yellow, and shaded, they aren't offering the plant anything. Usually in my tanks the snails clean them up as they start to decay, but in the tank, where the water is too soft for snails, I pick them off myself.

cheers Darrel
Thanks Darrel.. always good to hear from you. I do love the limnophila aromatica and when it comes out well its awesome to look at.
I continue to use the frogbits to judge nutrient balance cos of 2 reasons..
1. As u said it takes co2 of the equation because of the exposure to air
2. As its directly under the lights with only air inbetween the frogbits get max undiluted light. So any changes in nutrient levels which is not good to plant health will reflect first in the frogbits and then submerged fast growing stems and then on slower growing crypts.. i recently set up my part DIY PAR meter.. light at the surface is nearly 250 where as at the substrate its 50. So that's the amount of acceleration the frogbits face for photosynthesis.

And as for the old leaves.. you r right. I could nip them off. But seeing the damaged leaves drives me to alter my dosing in order to get the perfect plant health.

Tc

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GHNelson

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Regarding micronutrient toxicity: Not sure about this anymore. There is something that definitely burnt up my rotala rotundifolia hi red.. its either high nitrates or micros. This is one of the last pieces of the puzzle i am yet to solve. its not co2 def because currently this plant resides right next to the co2 diffuser and gets max co2.
I think this could be a consequence of how you dose the fertilizer!
Not how much;)
hoggie
 

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