Not sure if there is an issue or if patience is the virtue

JoshP12

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It might Stagshorn?

cheers Darrel

I thought maybe. Could that have been caused when I had the high intensity for too long (because it only showed on the 6th hour of that photoperiod) and the CO2 could not keep up/the plants could not keep up for that long?

With the spray bar and my current CO2 situation (green/yellowy green DC entire period - pH drop down to 6.1 (6.0/5.9 at end of period) from about 7.3 degassed), will this go away with time as the plants grow?

Josh
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
With the spray bar and my current CO2 situation (green/yellowy green DC entire period - pH drop down to 6.1 (6.0/5.9 at end of period) from about 7.3 degassed), will this go away with time as the plants grow?
@Plants234 unfortunately I'm not a CO2 user, so I can't really help with that. This link suggests that you maybe able to control Red Algae growth by <"manipulating light intensity and photoperiod">.

Touch wood I've very rarely had much Stagshorn. I've had a bit appear on the tips of older Java Fern leaves, the plant <"was in the light and flow">, but I cleaned the filter (just in case there was a <"build up of organic matter"> in it), and ignored it. It never spread, or grew much, and eventually it just dwindled away.

cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Thanks @dw1305,

I ended up cleaning the filter yesterday as well, just in case. This would be my first case of the stagshorn if it is indeed that - it does sway with the flow however, so it's leading me to think it is either BBA or hair (I have only seen staghorn once in a LFS tank and the algae did not move).

On a side note, do you think you can comment on why my rotala have suddenly created giant leaves (or have I just never seen a healthy one ... lol?).

I suppose we will see with time how this algae thing goes. I noticed it on some of the older buce leaves now as spindly hairs.

Josh
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
why my rotala have suddenly created giant leaves (or have I just never seen a healthy one ... lol?)
That would be my guess, <"growth was limited by lack of something">, and now it isn't.
This would be my first case of the stagshorn if it is indeed that - it does sway with the flow however, so it's leading me to think it is either BBA or hair
Stagshorn is usually quite wiry and stiff. Have a look at <"Dusko's Algae Guide">.

cheers Darrel
 

Zeus.

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Josh have you redone your pH profile after fitting the spraybar?

Needs some time for better flow and stable [CO2] to kick in ( if its stable!) needs a week minimum, from your pics looks like the algae is out competing the plants IMO, stable [CO2] first from lights on for first 4-5 hours, then the plants will stop wasting engery on producing Rubisco

We understand that Rubisco's job is to capture CO2 molecules and to deliver the molecules to the Calvin Cycle reaction centers. We know that Rubisco is hugely expensive and consumes a lot of resources to produce and to maintain. In low tech tanks, where the CO2 concentration is low there is a much higher density of Rubisco in the leaf because you need more of the protein to capture the small amounts of CO2. In gas injected tanks, the Rubisco density in the leaf is lower.

we know that when the plant senses that high concentrations of CO2 is available, it responds by reducing the production of expensive Rubisco. When it senses a lower CO2 concentration it must increase Rubisco production, however because this protein is so complicated and heavy, the increased production requires 2-3 weeks in order to change the density in the leaf to match the new gas concentration level. So it is much easier to reduce production than it is to increase production. When increasing gas injection therefore, it hardly takes any time to see an improvement in health. When lowering the concentration, the plant will suffer because it must now ramp up Rubisco production to account for the loss of CO2 availability.

What I mean is that if you are struggling with CO2 stability, or are having difficulty keeping high concentrations, then it's best to focus efforts on the first half of the photoperiod and not worry so much about the second half. If you are running very strong lighting then you are really pushing the plants and it's necessary to have the CO2 going. After 4 hours, if you turn the gas off, the water stays saturated for a couple of hours after the valve closes and the concentration trails off. So if you have an 8 hour photoperiod and you turn the gas on 2 hours before lights on, you can turn the gas off after 6 hours. So the gas is still running for 8 hours but it's on-off cycle is offset by the amount of time you turn it on prior to lights on.

There is no need to run the gas for 10 hours therefore.

Plants don't really run their photosynthetic machinery for the full day anyway. Under normal conditions, after 4 hours or so they start to shut down, so that's why CO2 isn't really needed for the full photoperiod.

Long photoperiods benefit algae more than they do plants, especially if it is high intensity.
The long photoperiod is more or less for our enjoyment.
 

kilnakorr

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Looks a lot like fuzz algea combined with diatoms or dirt.
If you can grab a leaf and rinse it, you should be able to tell the color (green or gray).
Newly setup tank so wouldn't be a huge surprise if it was a combo.
 

JoshP12

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Hey all,


Josh have you redone your pH profile after fitting the spraybar?

Needs some time for better flow and stable [CO2] to kick in ( if its stable!) needs a week minimum, from your pics looks like the algae is out competing the plants IMO, stable [CO2] first from lights on for first 4-5 hours, then the plants will stop wasting engery on producing Rubisco

I am glad you brought this up, since I am in the process of trying to figure it out (I think my days don't match up - its a blurr when in quarantine lol - nonetheless, lets call it a guideline of actions that I have taken):
Day 1: since spray bar: had to crank CO2 up since with the new surface agitation it wasn't breaking 6.4 on the low end.
Day 2: the previous cranked value (at middle ish of previous photoperiod) depressed my pH to 5.9 within 3 hours and then proceeded to push levels higher than tolerable for fish (at exactly 4 hours after lights on) - it was injecting faster than off-gassing. Reduced injection rate.
Day 3: The injection rate dropped my pH to 6.1 before lights on in 3 hours - I wanted to see if it would approach the deadly levels before lights off (this was yesterday) - it hit 5.9 by 5 hours after lights on - at that point I turned off the gas because my photoperiod was coming to an end in 2 hours.
Today: My CO2 solenoid didn't trigger again (I've changed the timer to see if that was the issue, which I think it was) and missed it by 10 minutes -- anyways adjusted the light timing for it. it was 6.1 at lights on in 3 hours and about 10 minutes. At just about 5 hours into the light cycle I am at 5.9 -- I extended my photoperiod today (8 hour total with 30 minute ramp up and down - does this sound good?) -- I was unable to see when the actual 5.9 (not hitting 6.0) started; I wanted to see if it will bottom out passed 5.8 and hit unsafe values. It stayed at 5.8/5.9 until 6.5 ish hours into the cycle and then bottomed at 5.79/5.8 where one or two fish went up top (maybe hinting for food/maybe up for more oxygen) -- nonetheless, I cut the gas at 7 hours into the cycle and I would say that fish were ok.

Plan for tomorrow:
Gas on 7:00 AM
... wait until my pH probe doesn't read 6.0 anymore i.e. fluctuating in the 5.9s - time it and call that the time before photoperiod starts.
Hit the lights at said time - I predict 10:30/11:
I suspect that I will only be able to inject CO2 for about 5 hours after lights on - leaving me with 3 hours ish of no injection @Zeus. this ok? and below?

If I need more injection time/it goes past the level, I will reduce injection rate and probably have to do this again -- or reduce photoperiod and hope that as plant mass grows, they will eventually use up the CO2 so I can leave it on longer and then eventually increase photoperiod.


Interesting observation(s): plants were pearling at 5.8 pH, but no before -- either that it was far enough into photoperiod or that the CO2 was finally NOT limiting. Also, around that point the plants perked up - was it CO2 or merely the fact that they had exposure to light for a period of time. 2 sprigs of algae (thread) got on my left rotala at the start of photoperiod -- when I checked again, near end of period, they were gone.

After cutting the filter to feed the fish, the plants at the carpet did Pearl - this is a good indication that I have enough light, eh?

Looks a lot like fuzz algea combined with diatoms or dirt.
If you can grab a leaf and rinse it, you should be able to tell the color (green or gray).
Newly setup tank so wouldn't be a huge surprise if it was a combo.

Upon closer inspection, I am seeing some of that fuzz algae, yes -- it needs a good blow down -- seeing the part above on my post, I will probably wait until tomorrow to remove any substantial amount of water (to keep my pH landmark), but I will blow it around and pick up as much as I can.

Good idea on grabbing a leaf.

Tomorrow the Amanos come so it will be interesting to see how they respond to this as well.


Hi all, That would be my guess, <"growth was limited by lack of something">, and now it isn't. Stagshorn is usually quite wiry and stiff. Have a look at <"Dusko's Algae Guide">.

cheers Darrel

Great guide -- and thanks for the feedback.

Thanks for the help everyone.
 

JoshP12

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Quick update. It took until now, 11:30, from 7:00 AM to reach 6.1 stable -- it only dropped .05/.1 pH in the last hour and a half. I turned on the lights for their ramp. I have no doubt that near the end of the photoperiod I will 5.8/5.9 but in several hours.

Would the advice be to wait until it actually hits 5.8/5.9 and keep it stable there for the period (this may take 6 hours before lights on) or introduce a longer ramp time on my lighting? Or just roll with it at a solid 6.1 at lights on? Or any other ideas?

Josh
 

Zeus.

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pH needs to be stable from lights on till CO2 off - well for first 4-5 hours (I class mine stable if the pH doesn't change 0.1pH)

So aim at getting stable pH at your target pH first - so its playing with the injection rate/BPS/flow and surface agitation, once stable change nothing

Then just time how long it takes :thumbup:

As plants grow you will need to check the pH profile as CO2 demand increases and flow decreases as increased biomass.

Not every scaper needs to have a pH profile, but most folk in the early years find it helps, with experience many folk dont bother with pH profile and manage fine ;)
 

Zeus.

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Interesting observation(s): plants were pearling at 5.8 pH, but no before -- either that it was far enough into photoperiod or that the CO2 was finally NOT limiting. Also, around that point the plants perked up - was it CO2 or merely the fact that they had exposure to light for a period of time. 2 sprigs of algae (thread) got on my left rotala at the start of photoperiod -- when I checked again, near end of period, they were gone.

Plants only pearl when the water around them is saturated with O2, hence you see them more when the flow is turned off, the reason you didn't see any pearling at the end of the photo period does support what Clives says- plants shut off photosynthesis when they have had their fill
 

JoshP12

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pH needs to be stable from lights on till CO2 off - well for first 4-5 hours (I class mine stable if the pH doesn't change 0.1pH)

So aim at getting stable pH at your target pH first - so its playing with the injection rate/BPS/flow and surface agitation, once stable change nothing

Then just time how long it takes :thumbup:

As plants grow you will need to check the pH profile as CO2 demand increases and flow decreases as increased biomass.

Not every scaper needs to have a pH profile, but most folk in the early years find it helps, with experience many folk dont bother with pH profile and manage fine ;)

Ok - definitely early years here ;) - I am going to aim for a 6.0 targeted pH. I did a minor adjustment to reduce injection rate today and I will hopefully not dip past 6.0 which is where I am hovering right now.



Josh
 

JoshP12

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Hi all,

CO2 drops to 6.0 and waivers around .05 of a point - @Zeus. thank you for your definition of stable.
Photoperiod ~8/9 hours playing with it with a 30 minute ramp up and down at an intensity which is growing plants. Thanks @alto

@dw1305 + @kilnakorr -- thanks for the algae diagnosis -- I probably have several types all in different spots and I the tank does have debris and does have decaying matter from the past bit.


I learned the importance of buying healthy plants:
1) Buy healthy plants, plant them, and give them all of the nutrients they need from day 1... duh everywhere you read this - but the buce I bought had some BBA on the edges and the S-repens wasn't in "great" shape -- the pogo was beautiful however -- Then compacted with lack of light from day 1, I am in a bad situation with dissolved organics feeding the algae.

Update:
1) I made a larger water change on the second day after adding the Amanos -- TDS back to the usual. 2 molted and I have only seen a few today - I think its ok.

Picture 1: Rotala - I am seeing lots of these sprouts in the bottom - despite most of the middle leaves being rough (I am removing as much as I can), does this mean that I should be leaving everything and with time it will grow out?

Picture 2: Buce - notice that the fresh leaf (grown in this tank) is healthy and so is the new one -- the old ones look haggard. Do I remove the old ones? Should I leave them? Will the algae be outcompeted?

Picture 3: S. repens - the old leaves are dirty + have that algae -- the amanos are helping -- pinching them off is challenging. The new sprouts leaves look ok but the growth rate is slower. I would say that I am most concerned with the s. repens - will they recover?

Picture 4: Pogo - honestly, the new leaves look great in color and size - the old ones are horrendous. Side note, you can see the glass algae that developed in the before/after photo - I scrubbed it last night. I will add that some of the pogo have shoots coming out of the stock (at the bottom/middle/top) - that's cool.

Picture 5: The goby is just chilling - thought I'd share :).

Calling on the wisdom of the experienced -- is it time yet for patience or should I be intervening any more?

Cheers,
Josh
 

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Zeus.

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CO2 drops to 6.0 and waivers around .05 of a point

:woot: impressive :thumbup: more stable than mine

Picture 1: Rotala - I am seeing lots of these sprouts in the bottom - despite most of the middle leaves being rough (I am removing as much as I can), does this mean that I should be leaving everything and with time it will grow out?

I normally uproot or cut off at substrate and just replant the good stuff. Works well IMO for Rotala

Picture 2: Buce - notice that the fresh leaf (grown in this tank) is healthy and so is the new one -- the old ones look haggard. Do I remove the old ones? Should I leave them? Will the algae be outcompeted?

Buce - great to see new growth esp with Buce :clap: I tend to leave old leaves till really bad as its so slow at growing

Picture 3: S. repens -

Never master that one myself with my setups :oops:

is it time yet for patience or should I be intervening any more?

patience and keep up the maintenance maybe consider replanting rotala with good stuff (new growth) soon, New leaves always a good sign of being on the right track with all plants :thumbup:
 

JoshP12

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:woot: impressive :thumbup: more stable than mine
Well, I omitted the outliers in my data - hah.

patience and keep up the maintenance maybe consider replanting rotala with good stuff (new growth) soon, New leaves always a good sign of being on the right track with all plants :thumbup:

Good to hear! Thanks!

I will keep the thread updated as things grow.

Josh
 

JoshP12

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Hi all,

Just a quick update.

Things are growing. The Buce leaf that I considered cutting off (due to algae) this morning had none. Was it Amanos or did it get outcompeted? I uploaded 2x photos of the buce for comparison.

The S.repens is ... not as good as anything else. It is starting to get some green spot algae, oddly, but some of the other algaes are gone. I am thinking that I wait it out more and hopefully those old leaves will get overshadowed by new growth.

Pogo is looking great - just a little thinner than I'd like - but I think this is a patience thing now.

Josh
 

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JoshP12

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I had my first s. Repens leaf fall off today and float to the surface. It was one of them in rough shape.

Prior to all of my changes, this would be a signal for me to make a change, but seeing as how I have amended several of the parameters, is this just a severely damaged leaf finally dying off, or does it suggest there is still a larger issue at hand?

I will say, I suddenly got some GSA on the old repens and have decided to up my phosphate dose as a result.

Josh
 

JoshP12

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Well, hello everyone!

I figured it is the time to post an update. I had huge die off from before the lights were low and that caused a huge build up of DOC. I had algae on glass and bba on the old leaves - only ever slow growers + very dead Pogostemon.

What I have done:
Gardening:
Topped all of the old stems that had come back, removed the dead segment, replanted tops. I did this for S. Repens, Rotala Rotundifolia, Pogo. Erectus, Buce, Anubias (for the epiphytes, I just removed dying leaves).

Husbandry:
Cut the 20% daily water changes and made them 60% ... have been doing these daily for about 3 days now. What spurred this was the dust algae on glass and BBA, I had ran CO2 profile, I was seeing streaming + pearling (immensely when all filters off during feeding) but the algae continued. Lights, I will address below.

My TDS had gone up to 400, albeit dosing daily EI with a Mg dose will increase this eventually -- but let's not kid anyone here -the tank is/was dirty. I saw GSA for the first time ever - my phosphate dose didn't change anything - the only thing is I cleaned and cleaned and cleaned. My water change water, doctored to the same KH and paired GH, has a TDS of 200 (tap water is around 80, but I like having more than 1 KH - in my heart). My TDS at the end of yesterday's change was 240, and I am aiming for 210ish today (it is filling currently). I automated my water change even more so than before :). I dismantled the filters and cleaned them vigorously - I even added purigen which I swore I wouldn't do, but I had some and am using it temporarily on top of bio media until I can get this tank clean. I am convinced dissolved organics caused my algae.

I have been dusting these plants with a toothbrush (to stir all the gunk up) and my wife laughs at me. o_O

I also noticed: My spray bar gives a nice circular flow, but all my detritus from my driftwood, plants, need I go on, was being caught on my background leaves of the stems. After turkey bastering, it just went back in a circle :banghead: ... I added a power head throwing the flow back to my intake with a filter floss in it to reduce the flow and catch any dirt - checking that daily - it is gross. I suspect my canister just isn't strong enough (even after removing filter floss from filter to increase flow and oxygenation) - it is rated for 300GPH (https://www.renaaquaticsupply.com/A...er-for-75-gallon-aquarium-complete_p_195.html); I am going to try to augment with power heads and see if it will suffice, without going out and getting a stronger one.

Lights:
I’ve found a spot with my light where I get pearling (most is streaming because I cut all algae leaves, cut tops and replanted virtually everything) in all plants except my pogo at the back - which makes me worry that the light is not at LCP for him - time will tell?? ... for reference, my pogo has grown at 40% and I have only reduced them down to 35’%.

Currently, I haven't seen any serious new algae forming -- Some of the old/new (leaves that made the cut) buce that got a tuft when the tank was dirty before the realization have a little hair or something, but for the most part I think I am stagnant.

Here's a big shot:
upload_2020-5-7_20-38-51.png


If I have any more observations/concerns that come up, I will upload them to here.

Again, thanks everyone on UKAPS.

Cheers,
Josh

PS anyone know how to change my name from Plants234?
 

JoshP12

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Hi everyone! Yes this is the same guy just with a new username!

Well, do I have an update. The algae was getting worse; it wasn't getting visibly better - same with plant growth. I did the water changes, but the heart of the issue wasn't resolved. I found BBA in my skimmer and I realized my filter tubes are probably disgusting - I had not cleaned those yet.

I flushed them with a pump and a 9:1 bleach solution, then stuck a hose with a toothbrush on the end and cleaned them out; after that I flushed them with prime water - all the while bleaching every other piece of equipment in my tank - including the diffuser.

I was terrified. But it worked. I shaved 2 hours off of my CO2 ramp up time. I do not need either power head any more. The neat thing is, 2 days after that (of course paired with clean water), the tank looks different.
1589220376083.png

The algae on those roots was much thicker before and has now dropped down to this - and it's pearling :oops: ...I hope that means it's dying - lol - and not that it's growing so quick that it is saturating the oxygen level around it ...

The rotala + pogo looks much better; I think cleaning helped - because it increased ALL of the primary variables (except light) - co2 + flow ... and my doser EI daily micro/macro takes care of that.
1589220512227.png

1589220908800.png

Anubias + rotala
1589220933903.png

1589221014606.png

I hacked the entire repens basically, and I have some nice buds now:
1589221472522.png




Now, I still have issues - and I need some guidance about how to proceed.

BBA on "old" Buce still ... this is post major trim:

1589221128743.png

1589221664179.png


On some old crypt leaves:
1589221109079.png

Old Ludwigia bits:
1589221141754.png



Some context: the S. Repens + Buce came to me with BBA on it - Did I provide poor conditions with high DOC from the die off and then spread it OR would my tank have outcompeted it if the conditions were absolutely immaculate?

This last point leads me to my question (and please weigh in):
What do I do next?
1) Leave the BBA and with more cleaning and 60% water changes every 2-3 days it will eventually just die.
2) Trim affected leaves again then replant -- my issue here is that I can see it some of the stems of the Buce.
3) H202 - Hydrogen peroxide - spot treat the buce + Crypts WHILE they are in the tank?
4) Hydrogen Peroxide dip the affected epiphytes + trim the crypt leaves.

Please let me know if photos showed up.

As always,
Josh

PS New interface is great.
 

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