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Tall 250l - Y llechen ogof

a1Matt said:
I'd leave the weed to see what it grows into.

I've tried swords a few times emersed and my only success is at room humidity.
Crypts need higher humidity than 70%. Aim for 80-90%.
I do not know about hairgrass, as I have never grown that emersed.

I am not sure to be honest, but I suspect that unless your plants were starved before you got them, ferts will not be an issue.

Agree IME Swords do best at room temp - Had them in a Vase and they would grow really well after initial withering.

Hair Grass - Yes if left clumped together it starts to go brown. The more Splayed out the better, and more frequent smaller groups helps with hairgrass.
Saying that though I Always use the marginal pond hairgrass as it has been grown emersed, and you get a huge pot for £3.00
 
a1Matt said:
...Water level is OK now ... I've tried swords a few times emersed and my only success is at room humidity. Crypts need higher humidity than 70%. Aim for 80-90%.
Thanks (again).

In my state of panic I've been googling loads, and I'm starting to wonder if the water level may actually be part of the problem. As the substrate is 1" - 3" higher at the sides of the tank than at the middle, and the water isn't actually to the top of the substrate anywhere, does the water actually need to be higher.
In that context, the other possible consideration is whether I've got the Sword's roots deep enough. My guess is that in some places they may be a good 2" above the water and reliant entirely on capillary action through the akdadma.

And as he bulk of the Hair Grass is on the roof of the cave, my guess is the substrate it's planted in could be draining far too much.

I'm starting to wonder if I should cut my losses, abandon DSM, strip out the blackened leaves and flood the tank.

Any thoughts?
 
He he. I just think your giving yourself more work to do than is needed....that's just my personal opinion though mate. I thought about it but in the end I know I wouldn't have been able to sit looking at it like that for long. A glass or two of wine later and I'd have the hose pipe in their
 
I think you have enough water.The roots do not have to sit in water, they just need to be wet... think of giving them the same water as you would a well watered houseplant.

I also think your never going to get all the plants in there happy while emersed as there requirements are too far apart... might be better to just flood it. But! If you do flood it and stay low tech you will have a long wait for the hairgrass to grow in.

If it was me I would grow the hairgrass on separately in a propagator and have the main tank flooded from day one.
or
flood it, put co2 on it, get it grown in, then wean it off co2 (an easy option if you have the kit already lying around).
 
Definitely want to stay low tech.
Maybe I'm just being impatient, but the Swords apparently dying in days has shaken what confidence I had.

What do you think about flooding the tank to the height of the cave. The Crypts and Swords would then be submersed and the bulk of the Hair Grass would be emersed.
 
To quote from Ghostbusters, never cross the streams.

Over the last week, things haven't been going well, and there have been a lot of people saying flood the tank. So more research. And with the help of the the likes of Ceg, I have learnt more about the pros and cons of the DSM. (Every time I think I'm getting the hang of this aquarium lark it turns out I know bugger all!)

So I decided to flood the tank.

Then I read Ceg's next offering of expertise … and kind of wished I hadn't flooded it. :(

As part of the flooding process there was a bit of rushed pipe bending (and in the process of rushing it, I forgot one of the lessons I'd learnt from my earlier experiments and they're not as good as they should be. :( blahblahblahblah!) At the moment the pipes are temporary – there are no holes in the spray bar, just a spare nozzle taped on the end, and the intake has the stock Rena sieve taped on the end. They will be finished properly as soon as possible.

To make life “easier” I have only put about 8” of water in the tank so far. (About 60 litres.)

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This covers all the Hair Grass (including on top of the cave), all the Crypts and all but the tips of the tallest Swords' leaves … and most of these are dying anyway. :( I decided not to fully flood the tank on a couple of grounds:
1 – I figure the first few weeks are going to involve the most maintenance and less water means less getting wet for me. :)
2 – it gives me the opportunity to keep an eye on the floor as it becomes more loaded, and how the tank settles on it's polystyrene pad. (I'm not nervous about this. Honest.)
3 – it means there is less water above the plants to absorb the light, and the surface area to volume ratio is reduced, so there should be improved gas exchange. Both of these will, I hope, be of some benefit whilst the plants are establishing.

Having flooded the tank, I then read the afore mentioned comments form Ceg. One factor of which I remain oblivious, is whether my plants were initially grown emersed or submersed. Now there had been some signs of new growth on some of the Swords (the plants that have suffered the worst), and it seems that whilst those leaves that have died already may have been submersed form leaves suffering from being emersed, the new growth may well be emersed form leaves that will likely suffer from being submersed. Hey ho. :rolleyes: The water's in now and I'm not in a hurry to take it out. We shall see how things go.

I can't say whether flooding has made the situation worse, but with no water in the tank it was harder to see quite how many of the leaves had died. Now that the decaying shadows that used to be leaves are gently wafting to and fro in the current, the horror is all to plane to see.
I've tidied up many of the casualties :(

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This plant floated free in the process and appears to have had it almost completely :( :( although I replanted the roots in deluded hope.

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… and this is the pile of over 25 leaves I removed. :( :( :(

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These are what's currently left of the Swords.

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Whilst I've trimmed off the truely dead leaves, I've resisted the urge to remove leaves with some green left. I'm assuming that whilst there is still some chlorphil in the leaves they're still photosynthesising and still have some worth.

The Crypts and Hair Grass have shown no significant changes since their last photo call, except that although the tank has only been flooded for 3 days, the Hair Grass is developing brown filamental algae. :twisted: (Not great pictures but you can just about see it on a couple of the clumps.)

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The one thing I am considering at this stage is CO2. I can't justify the cost of a pressurised system, so I'll probably go for a Schweppes bottle, ordinary air line, and an air stone, all of which I have lying around. Not a brilliant system, and not long term, but it's free. (There is even some yeast in the cupboard :) ) I know that algae can benefit from CO2 as well as plants, but I'm wondering whether this might be of benefit at this stage.

I know I'm probably being impatient, and the whole thing isn't going great just now, but thoughts from the experts please?
 
Hi Idris

I'm no expert but I would say that if you going to go for CO2 then take the plunge and get a pressurised system straight off. The inability to control the output of the diy CO2 may just be more trouble than its worth in the long run.
 
I must agree - pressurised C02 all the way. :)
Even thought the C02 will give a fresh set of issues to deal with, ultimately the gas will give you a beautiful tank much faster, lusher looking & in a fraction of the time it would take without it.
I have tried immersed stats a few times without much success although I have had more success using propagators outside.
If you go for the gas I would be tempted to start afresh with new plants, you could try to save the ones you have ( :? ) by putting them in some rich garden soil in a propagator in full sun?
 
idris said:
I can't justify the cost of a pressurised system
Humble appologies, I thought underlining it would help make it obvious enough.

I can't justify the cost of a pressurised system!!! :rolleyes:
 
Hi, there appears to be a few issues in your tank, the main one being CO2 IMO There is simply no substitute for good CO2!

What sort of flow do you have in the tank? Now that you've flooded it it needs to be treated like any other tank. It needs proper filtering, proper flow, proper CO2, proper ferts and proper lighting. Not doing it properly to save yourself some effort is counterproductive and will only cause problems like the ones you are seeing now.
 
Chill pal.

If you cant justify then its time to get a couple of yeast bottles set up ;)
Yourll have to be really ontop of the change overs and get your mix on point. When I used it I had it diffusing via a standard ceramic disc glassware and the bubbles rising into the filter outlet....this worked great and gave a really good spread of fine bubbles across the tank. HOWEVER!!! I will say others have reported filter damage when doing that, personally I didn't but I have to say,....but will also add other have used the technique for long term and had no problems sooooo its you call.

Turn that frown upside down buddy :D haha
 
idris said:
The one thing I am considering at this stage is CO2. I can't justify the cost of a pressurised system, so I'll probably go for a Schweppes bottle, ordinary air line, and an air stone, all of which I have lying around. Not a brilliant system, and not long term, but it's free. (There is even some yeast in the cupboard :) ) I know that algae can benefit from CO2 as well as plants, but I'm wondering whether this might be of benefit at this stage.

I know I'm probably being impatient, and the whole thing isn't going great just now, but thoughts from the experts please?

The way I understand it is that inconsistent Co2 levels can trigger MORE algae so using DIY Co2 may cause more problems than the "solve".

I agree with Dan, it that cutting corners to make things "easier" on yourself doesn't usually work out and I can speak from experience. I have one failed scape/tank under my belt and I'm lining myself up for my second! ;)

Now you've flooded the tank you're gonna have to change the water regularly, this will help with any algae problems.
 
I'd say as long as you keep on top of switching the bottle of yeast mix over when one begins to drop bubble rate...also make sure the one you swap it for has been set up and giving of co2 at a close ratio to the one you swap it for.

It worked well for me, but you do have to be on top of your yeastage haha
 
Fair enough Ryan, don't forget the check valves! U don't want a tank full of yeast mix. ;)

I personally think it's a little soon to be jumping on the "Co2 will fix it!" bandwagon. The plants aren't dying because they didn't have enough Co2, it was because they didn't have the right humidity/water. Cryps and Swords should be able to grow happily in a low tech setup.
 
What about liquid CO2?

I'm no expert, but I also cannot afford the initial outlay of a CO2 sysyem, but am happy to buy Easycarbo every so often.

I had algae problems in my 72ltr tank (60ltr water).

I started dosing 1ml easycarbo per day & all algae issues were solved (in conjunction a bit of messing around with lights & liquid ferts). I have now increased the dose to 1.5ml. This is obviously a very small dose, but has acheived balanced & constant conditions with good plant growth and no algae issues.

So with a 250ltr tank, I'm guessing around 200-220ltrs water due to your decor displacement. You could start by adding 5-6ml & see what happens.

So a 500ml bottle (say £15?) would last you approx 3 months - £60 per year.

This is just what worked on my tank, but may be an option for consideration.......
 
Yes,..Idris. I think if you can't afford a pressurized co2 system right now,...then as chrissjj points out,...you'd be better off with liquid carbon.

I am really sorry for your troubles but it's also probably a good idea to lower those lighting levels first for now. Just as clive often points out,....to compensate and help the plants to settle in into the submerssed environment.

I am definetely not an expert too but in your situation I would probably
1. Lower the lighting level as much as I can.
2. Reduce the photoperiod to about 5 hours. Add some floating plants to help absorb any NH4 or any of the other bad thingees
3. Keep tank & filter clean.
4. Water change every other day & then dose liquid carbon & appropriate nutrients for the day.
5. Keep the flow up in view of your deep tank etc
6. remove any browining leaves that are still attached to your submerged plants. Only keep the healthy looking leaves. It could also help if you keep some Egeria densa i suppose just as a temporary nutrient absorbing plant. You could remove it later on. I'd make sure my plants are small with less leaves so as to reduce the co2 stress on that plant,...and hence help them with their current transition phase. I'm not sure if this is right,....just seems like the right thing to do.

Just some thoughts. I'm sure there's more to it but unfortunately that's all I can come up with.

Wish you all the best.

Faizal
 
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