JBL Spirohexol Plus 250 (what a mouthful) seems to be discontinued by JBL. I found the ingredients which are;
I can only find links for this to european websites :/
What strange obscure medications
I will continue looking!
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The Nymph's Spring (EA900)
- Thread starter shangman
- Start date
What strange obscure medications
I will continue looking!
OMG just now I've been clearing the tank of greenfly-infested hydrocotyle, and spied ANOTHER sick pencilfish, of course with ANOTHER new symptom to me... popeye!
Truly I cannot at how many symptoms there are in the tank, and of course this is another classic symptom of fishTB.
I've emailed to vet to deliver the 2 obviously sick fish this week. Apparently due to the size of the pencils they can only test 1 fish, the price she quoted before (£115 + delivery) was for fish 2cm and smaller, and it's £220 to test 3 pencils as they need an extra slide. I've said let's just test one, and I will provide 2 good fish for them just in case they fit.
Truly I cannot at how many symptoms there are in the tank, and of course this is another classic symptom of fishTB.
I've emailed to vet to deliver the 2 obviously sick fish this week. Apparently due to the size of the pencils they can only test 1 fish, the price she quoted before (£115 + delivery) was for fish 2cm and smaller, and it's £220 to test 3 pencils as they need an extra slide. I've said let's just test one, and I will provide 2 good fish for them just in case they fit.
Ahh I did think that, I'll have a look for other meds then. I did see some EshaHexamita to try, but I think it doesn't trrat for all the types of flagellates that those discontinued ones do.
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Oh my word 😵
In addition to esha hexamita there is also "sera med Professional Flagellol" which contains 5-Nitro-1,3-thiazol-2-ylazane, ascorbic acid palmitate, menadione sodium bisulfite.
Do you have sera medication in GB?
Maybe you can tell the vet youre having trouble finding the two first medications and ask her to check if either of these will do the trick?
mort
Member
- Joined
- 15 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 2,384
I need to catch up with this thread more regularly. I'm really sorry you are having such a horrible time of it lately and really pleased the lovely ukaps community have stepped up for you.
From what I have read and conversations I've had with others, tb is supposed (at least confirmed cases) to follow the path that your vet has outlined, ie a long time period of slow deterioration. The problem is fish can be so annoying and fit multiple diseases at the same time, so luck is always the most valuable thing with any treatment.
I've done skin scrapings on koi but not small fish. The trouble is identifying what you are seeing, unless you know an expert. It can be really really hard to 100% Id anything unfortunately so you still might be down to your "hit it with everything" solution. Popeye, the new symptom is just another sign that something bacterial is at least happening but it's probably a secondary infection.
I've not watched this video before but humble fish is a disease god in the marine world and if he thinks it's helpful it probably is. It's gonna be tricky with a small wriggly fish though, so recently deceased might be easier.
www.ultimatereef.net
I'll try and stay more updated and keep my fingers crossed for you.
From what I have read and conversations I've had with others, tb is supposed (at least confirmed cases) to follow the path that your vet has outlined, ie a long time period of slow deterioration. The problem is fish can be so annoying and fit multiple diseases at the same time, so luck is always the most valuable thing with any treatment.
I've done skin scrapings on koi but not small fish. The trouble is identifying what you are seeing, unless you know an expert. It can be really really hard to 100% Id anything unfortunately so you still might be down to your "hit it with everything" solution. Popeye, the new symptom is just another sign that something bacterial is at least happening but it's probably a secondary infection.
I've not watched this video before but humble fish is a disease god in the marine world and if he thinks it's helpful it probably is. It's gonna be tricky with a small wriggly fish though, so recently deceased might be easier.
Taking a skin scrape
BIG THANKS to Dr. Charlie Gregory for providing this information. His website can be found here: https://www.aquaveterinarian.com There are some good wet mounts (and other disease info) here: https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exotic-and-laboratory-animals/aquarium-fishes
www.ultimatereef.net
I'll try and stay more updated and keep my fingers crossed for you.
Thank you Hufsa, it looks like this one is available. ♥️ I will try it!!
I don't know why this new symptom on another pencilfish had got to me but just having another cry about it all. It just chips away. I feel like destroying everything is inevitable and it makes me so sad. I know when I look in the tank that I will find something grim, but every time I find a new sick fish it's still a shock somehow. I spent all my time with the tank obsessing about what wasn't perfect yet and thinking about how to change it and only seeing the flaws, and not even seeing how beautiful it is and always has been.
My dad saw me sad about it and just got annoyed that I'm upset about a fish tank and thinks I need to get over it and I'm just upsetting myself for no reason. I guess that is a logical thing to feel but idk. He has a tank but he's not a fish person I guess, he doesn't see that invisible but real emotional connection.
John q
Member
Well in your dad's eyes you're the important one, not the fish tank. I think I'd say the same thing to my daughter.
Thing is mate, you've done everything at your disposal to try and fix the issue. So whilst this is undoubtedly sad I scence a small part of you is apportioning blame to yourself, if that's the case then I think you are being unfair.
Seems to me you've gone out of your way to provide a perfect environment for these fish, if you're feeling down then perhaps you need to remind yourself of that.
Things will get better 👍
MirandaB
Member
Damn Discus Studio are sold out of Octocil 
If you can't get the Sera one I'll look and see how much Octocil I have left @shangman.
I do agree with the vet in that Myco is likely to be lurking in pretty much every tank but don't agree that it kills over months/year,I think that's dependant on individual fishes immunity.
If you can't get the Sera one I'll look and see how much Octocil I have left @shangman.
I do agree with the vet in that Myco is likely to be lurking in pretty much every tank but don't agree that it kills over months/year,I think that's dependant on individual fishes immunity.
The Miniaturist
Member
You get upset because you chose the fish to keep in your glass box but they're not 'just fish' and the glass box was the most perfect world you could make for them. Blaming yourself is natural, you feel responsible but this kind of thing could happen to anyone.
You're doing the best you can. 😺
You're doing the best you can. 😺
Hmmm.. now this might be the stupidest thought ever had, but what if both the fish people you talked to AND the vet are right..?
If hole in the head disease weakens the fishes immune system, is it possible that all sorts of stuff creeping around the tank, like Mycobacterium, are finishing the fish off?
It could explain why they have a freaking misery rainbow of disease symptoms?
If hole in the head disease weakens the fishes immune system, is it possible that all sorts of stuff creeping around the tank, like Mycobacterium, are finishing the fish off?
It could explain why they have a freaking misery rainbow of disease symptoms?
I feel better already ❤️ just seem to not be able to stop beating myself with a stick about this every now and again and needed to complain somewhere. Mostly things are ok and I'm not too upset about it. It's also the frustration from job hunt madness! Something that's still for everyone I think lol. Gives me entirely too much time to think about fish too really. I did do my absolute best, I guess I should just consider it bad luck.
You are right about my dad too I think ❤️ I will try his way of thinking about it maybe then, he calls it the "gardeners way", that every plant failure in the garden is not a disappointment to be obsessed about, but an opportunity to try something else that'll be just as good or better. I have been thinking this way about the plants already, but also maybe the whole thing.
Thank you! I'll be trying to order some tonight, it looks available in a few places though so should be good.Damn Discus Studio are sold out of Octocil
If you can't get the Sera one I'll look and see how much Octocil I have left @shangman.
I do agree with the vet in that Myco is likely to be lurking in pretty much every tank but don't agree that it kills over months/year,I think that's dependant on individual fishes immunity.
That's what confused me about what she said, I've read about a few people who had it confirmed and they said it could be faster. I guess will see soon if it is or not!
❤️❤️❤️ This is is really!! The perfect world of not meant to have terrible diseases!! They're bloody inescapable as much as we try. I need to remember not to feel so guilty about it. I will have to find another type of fish paradise to create.
Wookii
Member
Wait, what?? Ask your vet which species of fish she usually sends off for a test that are under 2cm?
It’s only natural for those of us who have a strong sense of a duty of care to the animals we keep. It’s not an approach shared by everyone, some people don’t seem to give a monkeys about their fish, some swap them out every time they rescape for little apparent reason beyond aesthetics, with seemingly no emotional attachment. Different folks, different strokes guess.
When you do have that strong sense of a duty of care though, the loss of a single fish is upsetting, so a catastrophe like you’re experiencing is obviously going to be devastating.
As John says though, you are doing everything you physically can to address the cause, which is all you can do.
MirandaB
Member
MirandaB
Member
Apologies for seeing this and forgetting to reply @Wookii.....there is a paper which suggests Prazi might kill flagellates but I don't think there's any concrete evidence and I don't think Octocil will kill intestinal worms.
I've just found the combo of NDX and then Octocil very effective at treating "skinny loach" disease whilst still being well tolerated.
Hi all,
I've had both "White-spot" and "Velvet" in the past, but the only other really strange thing my fish have had were <"thyroid tumours">, and it took me a long time (and a number of deaths) before I found out what caused it.
cheers Darrel
I haven't got any useful advice to offer, but when I had a similar grisly experience it turned out to <"be Camallanus (an intestinal nematode)"> and I treated it eventually with levamisole HCl, bought as <"Harka Verm"> for cage birds.
I've had both "White-spot" and "Velvet" in the past, but the only other really strange thing my fish have had were <"thyroid tumours">, and it took me a long time (and a number of deaths) before I found out what caused it.
cheers Darrel
MirandaB
Member
Camallanus are horrible things and a nightmare to have in a planted tank...thankfully I've never had to deal with it but it was enough seeing others with it to make me doubly sure I never had to and I used to use Harka Verm before NDX came out.
I think this is definitely possible, but maybe the other way round. They all have TB, and TB + stress of new tank + sensitive fish makes them susceptable to anything else lurking in the tank (apparently almost all the diseases are lurking in almost all tanks all the time) = bad times. But I mean, it's a lot of different symptoms!! It's practically comical at this point that every time I look in the tank what I find is not just awful, but different! Just feels bizarre.
This is all very useful and interesting to know thank you Mort!!!I need to catch up with this thread more regularly. I'm really sorry you are having such a horrible time of it lately and really pleased the lovely ukaps community have stepped up for you.
From what I have read and conversations I've had with others, tb is supposed (at least confirmed cases) to follow the path that your vet has outlined, ie a long time period of slow deterioration. The problem is fish can be so annoying and fit multiple diseases at the same time, so luck is always the most valuable thing with any treatment.
I've done skin scrapings on koi but not small fish. The trouble is identifying what you are seeing, unless you know an expert. It can be really really hard to 100% Id anything unfortunately so you still might be down to your "hit it with everything" solution. Popeye, the new symptom is just another sign that something bacterial is at least happening but it's probably a secondary infection.
I've not watched this video before but humble fish is a disease god in the marine world and if he thinks it's helpful it probably is. It's gonna be tricky with a small wriggly fish though, so recently deceased might be easier.
Taking a skin scrape
BIG THANKS to Dr. Charlie Gregory for providing this information. His website can be found here: https://www.aquaveterinarian.com There are some good wet mounts (and other disease info) here: https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exotic-and-laboratory-animals/aquarium-fishes
I'll try and stay more updated and keep my fingers crossed for you.
That is something I've noticed when reading about all the current diseases, it seems that symptoms can overlap so easily, it's hard to know what is one and not the other. I have a complete scattershot of symptoms and species dead it's just bamboozling.
When the vet said I could do it myself I was quite surprised ! It's an interesting thing to try, I think you are right about very freshly killed, it does sound a bit mad any other way. Will see if anything is obvious or if there are any kind experts somewhere to advise. Will get a look at that video asap.
I did tell her all the affected fish are small, I guess I consider small to be like 5cm and below and hers is much smaller!
You described it perfectly, it does feel like a duty. I feel honour bound to do my best for them. Like Knights for the royal tank. I always intended to keep this tank for a long time, and I think I will still try stick to that before giving up. I will put down the pencils soon but not the rest of the fish . I need more evidence that they will all go. No apistos sick yet, only 1 pygmy of 20. It is not full catastrophe yet, even if it may be coming. If it is TB part of me just wanted to start from scratch very soon, but I think a bigger part of me wants to see how the rest of my fish do, if there wasn't the pencils the deaths would definitely be slower. Maybe some will never succumb and live good lives, I will wait and see. I think just do every thing I can before I have to start again.
She is a proper specialist fish vet. Maybe I am casting too many aspersions cos I'm too convinced by the fishTB, of she is right then it's much more likely to be treatable which would be fantastic.
I've just ordered the Sera stuff and have the NDX coming on Thursday. Will hit it with all the things!
Aha! Yours is the second story about grizzly symptoms with a camallanus worm, so def worth a try. Well the NDX will go in on Thursday so we'll see what happens.
Just catching up with all this during some teeth-grindingly annoying insomnia. Can only offer sympathy. I tried keeping discus when I was about 17 in the late 90s and I had an obsessive and heartbreaking time with various mystery ailments. Then the heater stuck on while I was away for the weekend and solved all the problems at once.
In recent years I’ve only had nano tanks and I think have lost fish for various reasons, usually chalked up to the ebb and flow of enthusiasm for maintenance, but the low stocking levels mean it doesn’t amount to feeling catastrophic (and I may have developed something more similar to your dad’s attitude over the years). I’m pretty sad that my yellow clown goby in my saltwater tank recently doesn’t seem to be getting enough food..,
I hope things will look up!
In recent years I’ve only had nano tanks and I think have lost fish for various reasons, usually chalked up to the ebb and flow of enthusiasm for maintenance, but the low stocking levels mean it doesn’t amount to feeling catastrophic (and I may have developed something more similar to your dad’s attitude over the years). I’m pretty sad that my yellow clown goby in my saltwater tank recently doesn’t seem to be getting enough food..,
I hope things will look up!
Looked in the tank this morning and discovered my female apisto has brought out a group of babies for the first time in months, it seems my apistos are getting alone better again after qutie a few arguements. I had worried my female was looking thin before, but I think this is a good sign. I think it helped that I added a few seedpods 2 weeks ago, when there were no seedpods in the tank she had to make nests in wood caves and it didn't seem to work well and she was much more aggressive. It's another reminder to value the beauty in the tank as it is, they're still living their lives in there! This week I will get out the camera and take some photos, I haven't since all this stuff started and I think it's still nice to record how the tank is looking.
Also to record my dosing: the past 3 days I've been (slightly over)dosing EshaExit & Esha2000 as the vet suggested - she thinks essentially I should try everything I can to kill any/all parasites and infections in the tank possible, in the hope that it is a treatable problem. I've also bought some EshaOptima today which she suggested works for helping fish in the tank fight illness. Later this week some EshaNDX and Sera Med Flagellol will arrive which I will dose (after a big waterchnage), as well as FlukeSolve to attack any worms, flukes and flagillates, I think at least 2 of these need to be dosed twice over 2 weeks, so will see in a few weeks if it's really helped. I think that's pretty much all I can do in terms of treatments for the tank!
I'm bringing 2 pencilfish with symptoms to the vet today to be tested. I've decided I will also euthanise the rest of my pencilfish too, it's just too depressing watching them die one by one, and it's not fair to them to let them develop all these awful problems. There are about 7 left now. Other fish have been dying, but at a much slower rate, so I think a watch wait and see approach to them will be good, along with discovering what the vet finds out.
I have noticed in my research that all the horrible diseases seem to afflict discus, it must be awful for that to happen, especially when they are their setups are so expensive and labour intensive! I have lost fish before too, and it's been sad but I didn't consider it a threat to everything like it is this time. Fingers crossed things will look up, I'm feeling much better today and ready to fight on again. And I hope your yellow goby eats more soon!
Also to record my dosing: the past 3 days I've been (slightly over)dosing EshaExit & Esha2000 as the vet suggested - she thinks essentially I should try everything I can to kill any/all parasites and infections in the tank possible, in the hope that it is a treatable problem. I've also bought some EshaOptima today which she suggested works for helping fish in the tank fight illness. Later this week some EshaNDX and Sera Med Flagellol will arrive which I will dose (after a big waterchnage), as well as FlukeSolve to attack any worms, flukes and flagillates, I think at least 2 of these need to be dosed twice over 2 weeks, so will see in a few weeks if it's really helped. I think that's pretty much all I can do in terms of treatments for the tank!
I'm bringing 2 pencilfish with symptoms to the vet today to be tested. I've decided I will also euthanise the rest of my pencilfish too, it's just too depressing watching them die one by one, and it's not fair to them to let them develop all these awful problems. There are about 7 left now. Other fish have been dying, but at a much slower rate, so I think a watch wait and see approach to them will be good, along with discovering what the vet finds out.
Thanks Joel
I have noticed in my research that all the horrible diseases seem to afflict discus, it must be awful for that to happen, especially when they are their setups are so expensive and labour intensive! I have lost fish before too, and it's been sad but I didn't consider it a threat to everything like it is this time. Fingers crossed things will look up, I'm feeling much better today and ready to fight on again. And I hope your yellow goby eats more soon!
The Miniaturist
Member
When I read your first half dozen words my heart sank but carrying on there was good news at last!
Unpleasant as it is, euthanasing the remaining pencil fish is probably for the best. As they seem to be the worst affected, knowing you have removed them all at least means none can die under the leaf litter & potentially cause more issues.
Fingers crossed here too that all the medications & UV steriliser enable you to get on top of things.🤞🏻Having some more clear answers from the vet will help you make further decisions.
As an aside, I've just replaced the air driven filter with a tiny power filter in my 25l nano & the pygmy corys are all out playing in the flow, you can almost hear them giggling with the fun of it all!
Unpleasant as it is, euthanasing the remaining pencil fish is probably for the best. As they seem to be the worst affected, knowing you have removed them all at least means none can die under the leaf litter & potentially cause more issues.
Fingers crossed here too that all the medications & UV steriliser enable you to get on top of things.🤞🏻Having some more clear answers from the vet will help you make further decisions.
As an aside, I've just replaced the air driven filter with a tiny power filter in my 25l nano & the pygmy corys are all out playing in the flow, you can almost hear them giggling with the fun of it all!
Oh my goodness guys... Already got some results. I have in the fish to the vet just 20 mins ago, and she decided to just do a scape. She found a big infestation of TRICHODINA parasite!!!
Interestingly this parasite should have been killed by the EshaExit I've been dosing, so she thinks this one I've got is resistant to that. Might be hard to kill, but damnit, we'll try!!!
Now off to do loads of RESEARCH
She said we could not do the histopathy test as well now we've seen this, but I said let's do it anyway and get a full picture, in case we see anything else on top.
Interestingly this parasite should have been killed by the EshaExit I've been dosing, so she thinks this one I've got is resistant to that. Might be hard to kill, but damnit, we'll try!!!
Now off to do loads of RESEARCH
She said we could not do the histopathy test as well now we've seen this, but I said let's do it anyway and get a full picture, in case we see anything else on top.
