Trying to stop the stunted growth in moderate/hard-difficulty plants

[Hufsa]

Definitely seems like some accumulation going on then. Once I finish prepping my water to 6.5 dGH (plus the 3 dKH it comes with), the TDS still only reads 110-115.
If youre trying to troubleshoot plant growth I would see if you could change more water, so you know better what it contains. A lot of accumulation might not be balanced well, like the plants are leaving stuff that they dont use as much of, and then that accumulates and could affect uptake of your current nutrients 🤷‍♀️

A. Pedicatella has a reputation for preferring leaner dosing (I'm still waiting for someone to start a journal here growing A. Pedicatella with full EI but no one has done so yet).

My impression for this plant so far is that its practically allergic to nutrients.
Even my emersed plants of Golden stunted when I gave them a bit of fertilized water.
Im annoyed that I cant remember if this was by spraying the leaves or by flooding the soil... maybe I can repeat it again.
I have a feeling that this variety of plant is especially bad at regulating leaf uptake.

 

[eminor]

Definitely seems like some accumulation going on then. Once I finish prepping my water to 6.5 dGH (plus the 3 dKH it comes with), the TDS still only reads 110-115.
If youre trying to troubleshoot plant growth I would see if you could change more water, so you know better what it contains. A lot of accumulation might not be balanced well, like the plants are leaving stuff that they dont use as much of, and then that accumulates and could affect uptake of your current nutrients 🤷‍♀️

I can manage a bit more water change, there should be low accumulation with the lean dosing now, will update soon when I have all new salts etc

 

[Andy Pierce]

Something to think about in the general case is a KH of 0 combined with injected CO2 means your pH is going to be both pretty low and also potentially unstable since there's not much buffering capacity in the water column. That may result in your pH being flow-dependent - you can check this by moving a pH probe around the tank whilst your CO2 is being injected. You could level out pH instability by putting in some modest KH buffering capacity, say around 2 dKH, where you can still inject CO2 to whatever concentration you like. This is easy to try to stabilise your water parameters and worth a go particularly if you've tried adjusting ferts, CO2, lighting etc and still having challenges. Is there a specific reason you've decided to go with 0 dKH?

 

[eminor]

Something to think about in the general case is a KH of 0 combined with injected CO2 means your pH is going to be both pretty low and also potentially unstable since there's not much buffering capacity in the water column. That may result in your pH being flow-dependent - you can check this by moving a pH probe around the tank whilst your CO2 is being injected. You could level out pH instability by putting in some modest KH buffering capacity, say around 2 dKH, where you can still inject CO2 to whatever concentration you like. This is easy to try to stabilise your water parameters and worth a go particularly if you've tried adjusting ferts, CO2, lighting etc and still having challenges. Is there a specific reason you've decided to go with 0 dKH?

The new fertilizer recipe will put 0.5 dKH, not much though. The reason is Tonina/Syngonanthus, I've read that they hate hardness

 

[Hanuman]

Blyxa japonica is kind of okay, I still don't know how people grow massive bush of it though, maybe need some time ?

Time. It's a slow/moderate grower.

Here's a plant I don't understand, supposed to be easy, damn she's slower than cryptocoryne, and sensitive to algae, hard to not get staghorn on it... the growth you see is 4 months, still don't know why...

Staurogyne repens is an easy but also a slow growing plant. Patience is your friend. Easy does not necessary equates with fast. It just means that it tolerate a wider range of conditions.

Here's stunted growth that its kind of new because before dosing urea/osmocote plant was stunted and developed side new growth, now they stunt and continue to grow in normal form as you can see (left stem of pogostemon erectus)

Pogostemon erectus is a slow/moderate growing plant. It does not like heavy dosing in the water column (it will stunt) but prefers a good rich substrate. If you also didn't have nutrients in the substrate that's the reason why they stunt.

 

[Hufsa]

Something to think about in the general case is a KH of 0 combined with injected CO2 means your pH is going to be both pretty low and also potentially unstable since there's not much buffering capacity in the water column. That may result in your pH being flow-dependent - you can check this by moving a pH probe around the tank whilst your CO2 is being injected.

But do we know that this is even an issue? There has been quite a lot of skilled aquarists of later years who use RO water with zero dKH added in, and the plants dont seem to have any problem with that. Its still a bit of a contested subject is my impression (someone even got banned on a different forum speaking about it), and its hard to separate out what is "old wisdom" and what may actually be "old myths".
But if 0 dKH was problematic for plants then surely it would show up in those tanks, but it doesnt. If anything the plants seem to like low to zero kh.

 

[Hanuman]

Something to think about in the general case is a KH of 0 combined with injected CO2 means your pH is going to be both pretty low and also potentially unstable since there's not much buffering capacity in the water column. That may result in your pH being flow-dependent - you can check this by moving a pH probe around the tank whilst your CO2 is being injected. You could level out pH instability by putting in some modest KH buffering capacity, say around 2 dKH, where you can still inject CO2 to whatever concentration you like. This is easy to try to stabilise your water parameters and worth a go particularly if you've tried adjusting ferts, CO2, lighting etc and still having challenges. Is there a specific reason you've decided to go with 0 dKH?

This has been disproven over and over again in probably hundreds if not thousands of tanks using RO water and 0 added carbonates. Now I think it's important to differentiate between a bare tank reading 0 dKH and a tank with a substrate reading 0dKH. In the former your statement is probably true but in the latter, the substrate probably has some carbonate traces. Just not enough to be detectable by our hobby grade alkalinity tests but enough to not created dramatic PH swings. This is probably why we have all gotten away with RO and no added carbonates in our planted tanks.

That may result in your pH being flow-dependent - you can check this by moving a pH probe around the tank whilst your CO2 is being injected.

Your PH value will slightly move up and down while CO2 is being injected in the tank while moving your PH probe around no matter if you have 0dKH or some dKH.

But do we know that this is even an issue? There has been quite a lot of skilled aquarists of later years who use RO water with zero dKH added in, and the plants dont seem to have any problem with that.

I agree. No issues, not for me at least and for all the people I know adding 0 carbonates in their RO water.

Its still a bit of a contested subject is my impression (someone even got banned on a different forum speaking about it), and its hard to separate out what is "old wisdom" and what may actually be "old myths".
But if 0 dKH was problematic for plants then surely it would show up in those tanks, but it doesnt. If anything the plants seem to like low to zero kh.

I don't think it's a contested subject honestly. I mean, there are so many successful examples run under these 0dKH conditions that I don't see how this could still be contested. Yes Gregg and others got banned from TPT, but we all know that place is a sham, run by people with social difficulties. It's not a forum, so it doesn't count.😏

 

[Andy Pierce]

I really don't have a dog in this fight. The OP is struggling with plants, has sorted lighting, ferts and CO2 already so what's left? He's going to try 0.5 dKH and maybe that solves his problem - I hope so. I never argue with the scoreboard - anyone having success with whatever conditions - including 0 dKH where that's applicable - goes in the win column.

 

[Hanuman]

I really don't have a dog in this fight. The OP is struggling with plants, has sorted lighting, ferts and CO2 already so what's left? He's going to try 0.5 dKH and maybe that solves his problem - I hope so. I never argue with the scoreboard - anyone having success with whatever conditions - including 0 dKH where that's applicable - goes in the win column.

Nor do I, but IMO that 0dKH argument is not a valid one considering all the examples out there showing that 0dKH is not an issue, in fact quite the opposite. His ferts are actually not sorted out if I may say so, he has low P. Also he doesn't seem to have issues with his plants other than the Pogostemon erectus having stunt. All other plants seem fine to me considering the pictures provided. My point was not to argue but to provide some background information as to why 0dKH is not an issue. He can add some if he wishes but to me that won't change a thing.

 

[Happi]

I dont think people get ban over 0 kh at TPT, if that was the case, I would have been banned in 2012.

Many hobbyists who use acidic soil, will almost always reach 0 kh especially if they are increasing the kh to 1-2 dkh. They may be unaware of this because nothing bad happens at 0 kh.

Many hobbyists been using 0 kh for decades now, there is nothing new about it. Far as OP questions or concerns goes, he is currently working with making several changes to water chemistry and fertilization. He is also suggested to maintain low kh and ph.

 

[Happi]

KH is 0

the substrate is tetra active substrate which is baked clay

In your case, You will almost always have some KH even if you add 0 kh water to begin with.

 

[eminor]

Hi guys, @Happi took some time to make custom fertilizer to help me avoid those stunted growths, I'm really grateful for that. He also told me to remove the substrate and clean it with RO water to remove osmocote and other stuff. I did it, cleaned the most I could, and the substrate is now near pure baked clay.

You'll find PDF below with different recipes that @Happi made, for those who don't want to open the PDF :

Remineralizing Salts​

• Ca 10 (CaSo4, Cacl2)
• Mg 4 (mgso4)
• K 1-2 (K2SO4)
• GH 2-3 (MgSo4)
• KH 0-0.5

Macro's ​

• 1 ppm N (KNO3, NH4So4, Urea)
• 0.13 ppm PO4 (KH2PO4)
• 0.86 ppm K (KNO3, KH2PO4)

Micro's​

• Fe 0.1 (FeSo4.7H2O)
• Mn 0.057O (MnSo4)
• B 0.012 (H3BO3)
• Zn 0.006 (ZnSo4)
• Cu 0.006 (CuSo4)
• Mo 0.003 ((NH4)6Mo7O24)

Dosing
​

I will dose Macros and Micros every day, I will dose micro 2 hours after macro. at the time I write that post, i still don't have molybdate which should come in a week or two so there could be some failure. During that time I'm making individual salt bottles to have an easier time changing fertilizer recipes if needed. I intend not to touch it for 1 month or 2 to let the plants react to it and make changes only if needed.

Setup
​

The setup changed a bit, the previous lighting system is out, I now have Phillips Led LineC 4000°K 176 lm/w I have 4400 lumens and can add 1100 more if needed, it covers every area of the tank.
There are fewer plants but two nemesis, rotala Walichii, and Nesaea Golden. Some other sensitive will come once I'll master those. Plants had a dip in Excel to kill algae

The Co2 is now on a timer, 2 hours before lights.

The photoperiod is 5 hours for several reasons, one is that plant is not yet rooted, the light is really high, i don't want to trigger algae with such low biomass.

I'm very sorry about the quality of the pictures, I'm a poor man, my smartphone is 10 years old, try to do my best

Observations
​

It's been only two days, so little time but life is a movement

I don't know if it's the few hours that those GSA spent outside water but they looks rather dead


New growth of Nesaea Golden is not stunted


Same with Pogostemon erectus


New growth of Staurogyne repens is in nice shape


The rotala orange juice new leaves are nice, colorful


Here's what the Micro's looks like

 

[Hanuman]

I wont comment on the fert side as that is really more of a personal preference than anything else and we all know by now that there is a large working range. Thousands of tanks attest to that. Ferts aren't magic and recipes are just recipes. Don't fall in a fert tunnel vision thinking that ferts are a magic bullet that solve all problems.

The photoperiod is 5 hours for several reasons, one is that plant is not yet rooted, the light is really high, i don't want to trigger algae with such low biomass.

This on the other hand I think it too low and you are playing with fire. The fact that the plants don't have roots is irrelevant. Plants also use their leaves to absorb nutrient. This is not exclusive to roots. Toping and replanting without roots is the weekly chore of all Dutch scapers or farmers. I do this every single week and my tank is high intensity tank. Now, if your concern is the algae then I would simply decrease light intensity and extend photoperiod, to say 7h or more, and then progressively increase intensity (and photoperiod if desired) with time if what you want is a high intensity tank.

As a general rule of thumb, making drastic changes like you did are not always the best approach because they don't tell you much of what your problem was since you changed so many variables. You might resolve your issues, yes, but you are none the wiser as you won't be able to correlate things.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

but IMO that 0dKH argument is not a valid one considering all the examples out there showing that 0dKH is not an issue, in fact quite the opposite.

I think @Roland has <"0 dKH">, and they probably have some of the healthiest difficult plants around <"A piece of the aquarium.">.

This on the other hand I think it too low and you are playing with fire.

Longer photoperiod for me as well.

cheers Darrel

 

[eminor]

I wont comment on the fert side as that is really more of a personal preference than anything else and we all know by now that there is a large working range. Thousands of tanks attest to that. Ferts aren't magic and recipes are just recipes. Don't fall in a fert tunnel vision thinking that ferts are a magic bullet that solve all problems.

I'm not blind, all I can say is that lean dosing is the key, Medium and EI is worse for me. It can't be CO2. I have tanks in the club, one has so much co2 that if I introduce a fish in there it'll die quickly, the PH drop is 2. I dose EI in it, excellent flow, and stunted growth. I genuinely believe there is no way to grow sensitive plants without lean dosing. If things go wrong I might change the fertilizer ratio, but I won't escape the lean dosing field

This on the other hand I think it too low and you are playing with fire. The fact that the plants don't have roots is irrelevant. Plants also use their leaves to absorb nutrient. This is not exclusive to roots. Toping and replanting without roots is the weekly chore of all Dutch scapers or farmers. I do this every single week and my tank is high intensity tank. Now, if your concern is the algae then I would simply decrease light intensity and extend photoperiod, to say 7h or more, and then progressively increase intensity (and photoperiod if desired) with time if what you want is a high intensity tank.

It's not much I agree, I'll wait until the plant grows more to increase the photoperiod because I can't adjust the intensity (dc voltage of 180v, and don't have a tool to do it). I already grow plants with 4 hours photoperiod, the colors were not crazy, but they were healthy. I had a long period where I had long photoperiod, colors were nice, algae too, when the tank has lots of plants I tend to stay around 7-8 hours now.

 

[Happi]

@eminor I see no point arguing over fertilization, focus on working on the recommended doses and tweak them as needed. You can also use this thread to guide you and we are here to help you succeed.

We already had these arguments over at lean dosing pro and cons thread, many hobbyists are still experimenting and learning. You also may face some challenges as you experiment, but there is alot to learn from it.

 

[Hanuman]

all I can say is that lean dosing is the key, Medium and EI is worse for me.

I'm glad you found your path. This said if lean dosing was the solution to all problems then I guess everyone would be using that type of regime, yet that's not the case.

It can't be CO2. I have tanks in the club, one has so much co2 that if I introduce a fish in there it'll die quickly, the PH drop is 2. I dose EI in it, excellent flow, and stunted growth.

That's the problem. Many people think that CO2 solves everything and start injecting CO2 like there is no tomorrow hopping that all plants will suddenly revive. That couldn't be further from the truth. Yes CO2 is the first nutrient a plant needs, yet it's not the only one, nor is the only reason why your plants can be unhealthy. This said, many times over people underestimate their CO2 requirements in relation to their light intensity, specially in high tech tanks and thus CO2 becomes the first suspect. In your case you have clearly other problems that are not CO2 related. If I remember well, you mentioned in another thread that your club tanks were not even dosed, so that clearly would be the first suspect, not CO2, so why are you injecting CO2 with a 2PH drop? That boggles my mind. 🤯

I dose EI in it, excellent flow, and stunted growth. I genuinely believe there is no way to grow sensitive plants without lean dosing. If things go wrong I might change the fertilizer ratio, but I won't escape the lean dosing field

You have thousands of thanks that prove you otherwise. But let's start with me. I am currently dosing 15 : 4.2 : 15 (NO2 : PO4 : K), front loaded. With that type of dosing I can grow virtually all plants. All types of Eriocaulon, H. Chai, Xyris, Toninas, Bucephalandras, Rottalas the list goes on and on and on. Some plants like Pedicatella is among the only one that stunts for me and grows side shoots under heavy dosing. Will I say that EI doesn't grow sensitive plants? No that would be farfetch and dishonest. Can EI be problematic in certain case scenarios, yes, absolutely, but you can't generalize your failures to all sensitive plants. In this context your are also omitting substrate which plays a major role as well.

My point is, the regime you use is just a choice you make but doesn't mean that other venues are wrong or bad or that you can't grow sensitive plants. Both Lean, EI and somewhere in-between have their downsides, you'll learn that with time. Don't think you found the red pill with lean dosing. Becoming complacent in this hobby is usually a bad thing as it limits your ability to understand things in-depth.

I can't adjust the intensity (dc voltage of 180v, and don't have a tool to do it)

As far as I am aware, France electrical grid uses 220V AC current. Are you not connected to the grid?
Regardless, the above is irrelevant. If you don't have a potentiometer incorporated in your power supply, moving the light's height up or down allows you to adjust intensity. That's one way. Adding a diffuser to the light is also another way.

 

[eminor]

I'm glad you found your path. This said if lean dosing was the solution to all problems then I guess everyone would be using that type of regime, yet that's not the case.

We are working with living stuff, and there are tons of approaches, I've been looking in Vietnam, Indonesia, India people, and they seem to use lean dosing for the most part. EI seems to be an occidental thing

That's the problem. Many people think that CO2 solves everything and start injecting CO2 like there is no tomorrow hopping that all plants will suddenly revive. That couldn't be further from the truth. Yes CO2 is the first nutrient a plant needs, yet it's not the only one, nor is the only reason why your plants can be unhealthy. This said, many times over people underestimate their CO2 requirements in relation to their light intensity, specially in high tech tanks and thus CO2 becomes the first suspect. In your case you have clearly other problems that are not CO2 related. If I remember well, you mentioned in another thread that your club tanks were not even dosed, so that clearly would be the first suspect, not CO2, so why are you injecting CO2 with a 2PH drop? That boggles my mind. 🤯

I think I read a post where Happi told that low co2 with lean dosing and high light does work.

I'm injecting so much co2 at the club tank because I've been told that co2 is always the issue when dosing EI. The answer is in front of my eyes. CO2 does not solve every issue at all, it's a really important nutrient though, I agree.

You have thousands of thanks that prove you otherwise. But let's start with me. I am currently dosing 15 : 4.2 : 15 (NO2 : PO4 : K), front loaded. With that type of dosing I can grow virtually all plants. All types of Eriocaulon, H. Chai, Xyris, Toninas, Bucephalandras, Rottalas the list goes on and on and on. Some plants like Pedicatella is among the only one that stunts for me and grows side shoots under heavy dosing. Will I say that EI doesn't grow sensitive plants? No that would be farfetch and dishonest. Can EI be problematic in certain case scenarios, yes, absolutely, but you can't generalize your failures to all sensitive plants. In this context your are also omitting substrate which plays a major role as well.

There are always people that can grow plant in weird conditions, it's like in everything. Why does almost every big society like Tropica use lean dosing, they studied, and they maybe have some info we don't have.
The substrate is a nice backup and plays a huge role I agree, that's why I'm doing that journal, the tetra active substrate is bad clay, low cec, I had aqua soil before and it's been easier. I'm going to push that tank to the max with lean dosing, there will be some failure that's certain but I won't hide anything, hope it will help people.

My point is, the regime you use is just a choice you make but doesn't mean that other venues are wrong or bad or that you can't grow sensitive plants. Both Lean, EI and somewhere in-between have their downsides, you'll learn that with time. Don't think you found the red pill with lean dosing. Becoming complacent in this hobby is usually a bad thing as it limits your ability to understand things in-depth.

I saw a post maybe it was from @dw1305 that said that everybody is right, i agree with that. As i said i still use EI in some of my club tanks to grow plants faster, works fine for me with easy plants, i don't deny it, I never managed to grow sensitive with it. I will love to see sensitive plants under EI, unstunted, never saw it.

As far as I am aware, France electrical grid uses 220V AC current. Are you not connected to the grid?

The led input is 220v AC, there is a transformer that lowers it to around 180v DC

Regardless, the above is irrelevant. If you don't have a potentiometer incorporated in your power supply, moving the light's height up or down allows you to adjust intensity. That's one way. Adding a diffuser to the light is also another way.

I'll wait a bit, so far i have 0 algae.

I'm still a noob, that's for sure, maybe some thought while reading me that I'm a man that "thinks he knows everything". I know where I come from in the hobby, i know where i want to go. I take everything that people say here in mind, it's just that I can't adjust things quickly because it takes so much time to see a difference. I'm thinking about adding club tank in that journal too

 

[eminor]

Behind the scene, making the individual micro salt stock solution

 

[Happi]

H

Behind the scene, making the individual micro salt stock solution
View attachment 206873View attachment 206874

How did you get 1000 ppm FeSo4 in there? The recommended recipe is no where near that amount and the max Fe in that solution should be around 5 ppm. 🤔

Solution also appear as it's not fully dissolved due to high level of sulfate.