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Vision 260

NC10

NC10

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2013
Messages
566
Location
Sheffield
Thought I may as well make a start on my journal and give some info on the system and my plans.

Please don't get too excited, the photos are pretty shocking TBH. As soon as I get the PC set back up, I'll upload some from a half decent camera.

The Plan

The basic idea is an Amazon type bio based around one big buttress root. The main problem I had was the pathetic dimensions of the tank. Leaving the bow out, I only have just over 12" of useable depth to play with. For a tank 4ft wide and 20" high, it's not really ideal for what I had in my head.

I searched high and low for the wood, but everything I liked was just way too big for the tank, not width, just the depth causing problems. I decided then I was going to have to compromise a little. Instead of one big piece, I was going to have to go with two smaller pieces, to keep the depth down, then hopefully bodge them together to make some sort of root looking structure. I eventually found a couple in a shop which vaguely resembled what I had in my head when pushed together. They're still pretty big on their own and weigh a ton, which got me thinking when I was putting them in the tank. If I had have bought one big piece, I wouldn't have been able to get it in anyway because of the centre brace, something I didn't even think about. :hungover:

The plants will be loosely based around the Amazon too. Various swords, large in the back corners, with a smaller variety in front sloping down to the front/centre and maybe a small one in the centre, where the 2 pieces of wood meet. No idea on scientific names until I've made the final decision. I say loosely because I also want a carpet of HC. Not covering the entire substrate but around the base of the wood up to around half way between the front. There are a few nooks and crannies in the wood were I could also add some. Up to now that's as far as I've got.

The top substrate will be a black fine gravel. I paid £12 for what may as well be a cup full of tetra complete substrate, so have decided to go down the cactus compost route for bottom layer. I read a few good threads/reviews and its obviously way cheaper.

I'll be going with DIY Co2 to start with. I'll be working away for 3 weeks at a time so will need to fine tune a recipe to suit. I'll feed this into the sump from the cupboard. A carbon additive is still not off the cards at this point though. Need to do a bit more reading on that.

No idea which route I'll be taking with nutrients. As I mentioned, I'll be working away for 3 weeks at a time so need to keep it as simple as possible for my other half.

Up to now, fish stock will be various South American cichlids and plecs. Angels, rams, cockatoos etc Maybe a pair of Discus. Not sure yet.

The System

Tank - Juwel vision 260 sumped on custom/DIY stand - Around 308 litres total
Lighting - 2x39w T5 running Giesemann Aquaflora & Midday 6000
Heating - Eheim 300w heater supplied via an STC-1000 - Currently running @ 27.7 °c
Return pump - D-D H2ocean 2000 - Only running at just over 500lph because of head! Custom mini 3 hole spray bar made from a 12mm T-piece
Circulation pump - D-D H2ocean 2000 with custom/DIY 1 metre spray bar along bottom back wall firing up.
Filter - 33"x11"x13" sump. Coarse, medium, fine and ceramic media. 3 bags of purigen.
Substrate - 1 small tub of TetraPlant complete substrate & 1 bag of B&Q cactus compost. Capped with 25kg black basalt gravel. (could have done with more)

Potions:

Easylife - Easycarbo
Easylife - Profito

Flora:

Hemianthus Cuba (replaced/replacing??) - Monte Carlo & Glosso currently sat on the subs bench.
Echinodorus rose
Echinodorus bleheri
Echinodorus radicans
Echinodorus tricolour
Echinodorus xinguensi
Echinodurus cordifolius
Vallisneria gigantea
Vallisneria asiatica
Echinodorus Tenellus

Fauna:

4 x Angels
6 x Checkerboard Pigeon Blood Discus
2 x Amano Shrimp
1 x My old Moonlight Gourami - Around 8 years old


A few pics, as before, sorry for lack of quality. I'll get something sorted ASAP.

The overall look of the tank. The heater fits in behind the wood, so you won't actually see it when it's in it's final position.

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On both pieces of wood there were only two contact points with the glass, so because of the ridiculous weight I siliconed them into place on polystyrene. I would be in no doubt that if one would have slipped it would have cracked the tank. They look so light just sat there :D They're a better match in colour too in real life. They look slightly different in the pics:

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The sump. Nothing much to say really. Coarse, medium and fine media. Still to add some ceramic. Marked out for running level and the level which equates to a 5% water change:

image_zpsf751a126.jpg


That's it for now, but it's a start! If anyone has any questions, advice or criticism then please go ahead :thumbup:

Thanks for looking.
 

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Last edited:
Nice setup!

How do you intend to inject CO2? directly in the sump?
 
Thanks ivydree,

That was the original plan, to just inject directly into the sump and let the return feed distribute it, but I've since learnt the Co2 could cause damage to the pump and pipes etc

The plan now would probably to inject straight into the tank, but a liquid carbon is still in the running at this point, which I'd dose into the sump. I'm not sure if that will cause damage as well though, like with the "real" Co2.
 
What do you mean damage the pump?
As long as it's dissolve, I can't see why it would be risky....
 
I've read a few things about it making the plastic brittle causing damage over time. I thought that was the reason why you couldn't just use standard airline as well.

Are you saying I'll be fine just going with my original plan?
 
I'd assume so, using airline is bad, because CO2 messes with it, but pure CO2....
Dissolve CO2 is not a problem, otherwise your pipes would be damage wherever you inject...

Maybe others can confirm (or not)
 
Well UP CO2 diffusers are made from plastic so i'd figure it's not a problem! :) lol Silicone airline is said to be the one to be avoided, but i have used a section of this before with no detrimental effects.
 
Ok cheers ivydree. I just thought that injecting into one compartment in the sump, it will be at a higher concentration then when fully mixed with the tank. Just didn't want to cause myself any problems.

Thanks Rob.
 
Issues I see...

1. If you use liquid carbon it will cost a fortune with the water volume you have.
2. With DIY CO2 and a tank this size you are asking for trouble. Do a search for the fun and games people have with DIY CO2, algae, fish deaths, yeast yuck in the tank, ruined furniture etc etc before they just go out and buy a fire extinguisher and regulator and do it right.:)
3. With gaseous CO2 sumps, flows, pipe etc all cause CO2 out gassing, though it is possible to minimise this with careful design and monster high use 5Kg CO2 cylinders ;)
4. CO2 does attack plastics/rubber. I have seen airline tube (as opposed to proper CO2 tube) go brittle with CO2. My cheap Hong Kong bubble counter plastic all crazed and fell apart after a year. The locking nuts on my replacement Hong Kong bubble counter shattered after a couple of months. JBL ProFlora CO2 bubble counter is fine. 2Kg fire extinguisher on 180litres lasts me 100days odd. I got only 20 days odd when CO2 was leaking everywhere.:banghead:
5. CO2 will dissolve in rubber either softening it or making it brittle. This is why the sealing washer in a CO2 fire extinguisher is CO2 proof plastic not just a plain old rubber washer. People do inject CO2 into their filter inlets and report no issues with their filter seals, however be aware.
 
ian_m said:
Issues I see...

1. If you use liquid carbon it will cost a fortune with the water volume you have.
2. With DIY CO2 and a tank this size you are asking for trouble. Do a search for the fun and games people have with DIY CO2, algae, fish deaths, yeast yuck in the tank, ruined furniture etc etc before they just go out and buy a fire extinguisher and regulator and do it right.:)
3. With gaseous CO2 sumps, flows, pipe etc all cause CO2 out gassing, though it is possible to minimise this with careful design and monster high use 5Kg CO2 cylinders ;)
4. CO2 does attack plastics/rubber. I have seen airline tube (as opposed to proper CO2 tube) go brittle with CO2. My cheap Hong Kong bubble counter plastic all crazed and fell apart after a year. The locking nuts on my replacement Hong Kong bubble counter shattered after a couple of months. JBL ProFlora CO2 bubble counter is fine. 2Kg fire extinguisher on 180litres lasts me 100days odd. I got only 20 days odd when CO2 was leaking everywhere.:banghead:
5. CO2 will dissolve in rubber either softening it or making it brittle. This is why the sealing washer in a CO2 fire extinguisher is CO2 proof plastic not just a plain old rubber washer. People do inject CO2 into their filter inlets and report no issues with their filter seals, however be aware.
Click to expand...

Yes, BUT, all those example are about gazeous CO2.... I cannot see water with dissolve CO2 in it attacking plastic... Otherwise we'd all have problems with our filter canisters...
 
Thanks Ian.

If I were to go with DIY, I'd want a recipe to last for around 3 weeks, so a very slow long term bubble. Hopefully this wouldn't cause any issues with fish deaths etc from a sudden quick blast of Co2, from say a recipe designed for only a week. I'd be using a second bottle as well before going into the tank, so that should catch any gunk that decides to make its way up the air line. I'll have to do a bit more reading into the extinguisher option.

The cost obviously comes into it at some stage, but it's mainly ease of use I'm after at this point. If all my other half has to do is dose a few drops of carbon per day, it's going to be a lot easier for her and less frustrating for me if something goes wrong for example. 100's of miles away and unable to do anything other than cross my fingers :nailbiting:

Decisions, decisions. :crazy:
 
ivydree said:
Yes, BUT, all those example are about gazeous CO2.... I cannot see water with dissolve CO2 in it attacking plastic... Otherwise we'd all have problems with our filter canisters...
Click to expand...
My plastic bubble counter crazed below the water line as well. So CO2 in water does attack plastic.
 
ivydree said:
Yes, BUT, all those example are about gazeous CO2.... I cannot see water with dissolve CO2 in it attacking plastic... Otherwise we'd all have problems with our filter canisters...
Click to expand...

I personally don't see a worry when diluted with the entire water in the system, as you say, everyone would get problems if that were the case.

It's when people start feeding directly into the return for example. In my case I was just worried the higher concentration in the return pump section could possibly cause me issues. I suppose just injecting into the first section could help me with this, it would be a lower concentration anyway, not just dissolving and going straight through the pump.
 
All looks good, I suspect if you are careful CO2 attacking things won't be an issue as you are aware of it.

However
1. DIY CO2 is starting down the road to problems. With a tank that size gas CO2 is the only reliable way to go, unless you intend to grow algae.
2. That amount of light is very high. In conjunction with the CO2 problems with DIY you are nicely on your way to a fantastic plant killing algae farm :eek:
 
Ok thanks ian, I'm really swaying towards liquid for now then, until I've done a bit more research at least.

What amount of light would you have recommended for my tank?

I've mainly been going by tropica's requirements based on medium/advanced plants.

I'm currently at 0.7 watts per litre which I knew was towards the high end but didn't think was too excessive.
 
lovely piece of wood that will set the tank off nicely.

Ill put my 2 pence in about the setup.

There are a few things that stood out from your list that spring to mind and Id say on a 4 foot tank youll have to decide whether you go high tech or low tech

Hi tech needs pressurised co2, normal to high light, regular ferts and 50% (ish) water changes each week.

If you're going to be away 3 weeks at a time then you will struggle with the above unless you've got someone at home who you trust to carry out tasks on a regular basis.

Liquid co2 on a 4 foot? It will cost you a bomb long term if youre dosing the correct levels to replace normal co2 and if you go Amazonian watch any valiis you get as some will melt to snot with easycarbo. Youd be better to buy a budget regulator and find a cheap co2 supplier or go the fire extinguisher route BUT historically on this forum injecting co2 into an open sump system has been beset with problems. The previous people to do this have found themselves injecting vast amounts of co2 to get the dropchecker green as the open sump just gases it off. A closed sump is the fix (or none at all) so is this possible on your tank to modify it?

DIY co2 on a 4 foot isnt really viable for hi-tech. You could run a two or three bottle solution to give a very low dose but if you are away you may come back to find a cloudy mess where the alcohol has expanded into the tank (trust me ive done it!)

With all the above it sounds to me like you'd be more suited to a low tech tank that can tick over while youre away. Use your cactus substrate mix. Plant with a high biomass from the start with lots of swords, valiis and low light loving plants like ferns and anubias and youll have a cracking tank. Less water changes but dont forget not to smash loads of light into it as then youre moving into hi-tech and needing the co2 and ferts to balance the light.

Im not an expert on low light but there are plenty of threads on here and experts on this type of tank.

Noted as well that you'd mentioned some of the advanced Tropica plants. You may find some of these are only possible with hi light and co2/carbon injection. Their website will be able to tell you what they require or post up here for answers on species.

hopefully that hasnt burst your bubble too much as its not meant to. I can see with that wood in a tank that size it will look beautiful when planted.

If you do decide to go hi-tech then just remember what Roy Batty said. The light that burns twice as bright can fill your tank with algae twice as fast! Well he didnt really say that but you get the gist. :)
 
260litres is about 70US gals. Your lights are about 190W, so that's about 3W/gal. Definitely in high-tech gaseous CO2 required region.

See here for the reference.
Lighting In the planted Aquarium | UK Aquatic Plant Society

I have 50W T8 tubes over 180litre (50US gallons) which gives 1W/gal and even got so called difficult plants (Glossostigma elatinoides) growing no problem. However my HC failed at bottom of the tank, though it grew fine on a pot hanging half way down in the tank where it had more light. With this light level algae and maintaining CO2 levels has not been an issue for me. However I am probably about to blow it all as I now have a 70W T5 high output light in the car to replace my T8's.

Interesting read here.
Tropica Aqurium Plants

As you go away a lot maybe high-tech is a no go. However I went away for 3 weeks (so more likely 4 weeks between water changes) with high-tech tank. I built an automatic dosing pump, turned CO2 and lights down to less hours a day and came back to plants & fish OK.

DIY dual peristaltic dosing pump with alternate switching. | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Currently been 3 weeks between water changes (been away over half term) and I didn't turn lights or CO2 down. Fish are all fine but plants have gone a bit mad and some have reached the surface and are blocking light to the plants below, causing them to suffer. This weekend will be water change, light change and major pruning...
 
Cheers for the replies lads, much appreciated. I'll give them a proper read later this evening and have a read through some of the links I've noticed.

Just to clear the been away bit up. My mrs will be in charge of running the tank whilst I'm away. Basically a 10% weekly water change, feeding the fish and adding any potions. (although I'm looking into adding a few auto feeders, she tends to get a bit heavy handed now and then which results in a snow globe effect!) I don't want her to start having to mess around adjusting pressures or panicking if anything goes wrong. Not that I'm saying she's dumb lol but something she doesn't really need. By going with the liquid form, there's nothing to go wrong really. Simply measure the amount and sling it in.

I've just done a quick calc based on API's Co2 booster. It's £11.95 for 473ml. The dosage for the entire 308 litres is 8ml per day, meaning the full bottle will last 59 days, or 2 months. So near enough £6 per month which I don't think is too bad, especially for the ease of use.
 
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