Hari Sankar
Member
Am following EI dosing
3xmacros a week kno3,kh2po4
3xmicros a week planted csm+b
For daily Evaporation top ups with RO water
I don't have a water testing kit
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What deficiency?
- Thread starter Hari Sankar
- Start date
Am following EI dosing
3xmacros a week kno3,kh2po4
3xmicros a week planted csm+b
For daily Evaporation top ups with RO water
I don't have a water testing kit
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Soilwork
Member
- Joined
- 22 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 559
Shortened internodal and reduced leaf size may suggest an induced deficiency caused by excess fertiliser use. It's nearly impossible to tell which is occurring but if I was to hazard a guess maybe excess phosphate causing induced Zinc deficiency, copper deficiency or could be toxicity of both.
do you use carbon dioxide?
do you use carbon dioxide?
Hari Sankar
Member
AverageWhiteBloke
Member
You're rapidly changing into Clives Nemesis SW 
not doubting the science or method behind it, I have read into antagonism, it's just I've watched this forum change over the last few months from majority of advice being more of everything to trying less of everything. As long as you don't start advocating the use of tests kits we should be fine otherwise I can see Clive coming out of retirement to give everyone a good chastising, a bit like when you've threw a party while he was out when you were supposed to be baby sitting
Not stalking you or anything but I notice you suggest lowering fert levels to most deficiency issues in this board and others, well I think it's you, sounds like you if that makes sense? Good though, trying all these different methods should yield success for someone but unfotunately with the infinite amount of lights,water, plants and fertilisers we'll struggle to find a one-size-fits all solution. If we do, thine is the world and everything that comes with it.
not doubting the science or method behind it, I have read into antagonism, it's just I've watched this forum change over the last few months from majority of advice being more of everything to trying less of everything. As long as you don't start advocating the use of tests kits we should be fine otherwise I can see Clive coming out of retirement to give everyone a good chastising, a bit like when you've threw a party while he was out when you were supposed to be baby sitting Not stalking you or anything but I notice you suggest lowering fert levels to most deficiency issues in this board and others, well I think it's you, sounds like you if that makes sense? Good though, trying all these different methods should yield success for someone but unfotunately with the infinite amount of lights,water, plants and fertilisers we'll struggle to find a one-size-fits all solution. If we do, thine is the world and everything that comes with it.
Hari Sankar
Member
You're rapidly changing into Clives Nemesis SW
Not stalking you or anything but I notice you suggest lowering fert levels to most deficiency issues in this board and others, well I think it's you, sounds like you if that makes sense? Good though, trying all these different methods should yield success for someone but unfotunately with the infinite amount of lights,water, plants and fertilisers we'll struggle to find a one-size-fits all solution. If we do, thine is the world and everything that comes with it.
What are you trying to say
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AverageWhiteBloke
Member
In a nut shell, Clive a.k.a Ceg on this forum (don't know if you've heard of him) an all round specialist in pretty much everything
and that's not being sarcastic. Was a big advocate of if you have deficiency in anything to throw lots of ferts at it to the point of ridiculous amounts to see how much he could actually get in. Soilwork is on the other end of the spectrum always advocating using less. Clive is a legend in these here parts or was/is haven't seen him for a while. He wasn't backward at coming forward if anyone suggested lowering ferts to solve a problem if you know what I mean I believe SW is involved in terrestrial plants and soils so I'm not doubting his-her credentials either. If they went head to head it would be a great read.SW seems to be of the school of thought that having too much of one chemical can prevent plants utilising another chemical (antagonism)
AverageWhiteBloke
Member
Sorry read that back and makes sense now. i should have point out my previous comment was aimed at Soilwork and not you specifically.
Soilwork
Member
- Joined
- 22 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 559
Hi AWB
I read ALL of Clive's posts just in the last couple of years in fact. At that time my 180litre soil tank with co2 was flourishing. I got a spray bar, mounted on the back wall and whacked my co2 up and the plants sky rocketed. Clive was the master and off I went preaching the fallacies of co2 flow and distribution (Clive and Tom sure did leave their mark in just about every forum going). I soon realised that EI just doesn't work, for everyone that is.
Think about it, if you dose to EI levels and don't 'roll your own'
how can Fertilisers be causing an issue? It must then be co2 but here's the thing. I know many hobbyists far more astute than I am that fail under the same principles as EI. We have become masters at delivering co2 to the point that we are harming our livestock. We have yellow drop checkers and powerful filters yet ADA just shoot a relatively reserved amount of co2 straight up to the surface yet they grow nice plants.
Why do you think that people are changing their tune about dosing large amounts of ferts? Why did GLA alter there mixing instructions for micro ferts in august last year by a whole order of magnitude?
The reason my 180 litre took off is because I had stopped dosing micros for quite a while. My pH dropped to 5.9
Due due to co2 injection. At that pH micro nutrients are more available and they were doing fine with just the soil.
water hardness is the major issue when it comes to metals. Those with soft really can't dose much. And those with hard water (Clive) and most people on this forum who are EI advocators need to add more ferts because of precipitation. High levels of calcium compete for uptake of heavy metals so adding more helps and things improve but most of the ferts are probably just unavailable to plants. Micro nutrient available (with the exception of molybdenum) also become less available at higher pHs.
Tom wasn't even following EI for micros and was and avid water changer, as too was Clive and so nutrients probably didn't stay in solution long hence more success dosing lots.
There is no none size fits all solution to Fertilisers. That's the issue. There never will be. Some plants are ok with lots of ferts. Some are not. Some substrates contain plenty, some are inert, co2 will make a difference and so will light. Lots of fish/shrimp/snails.
There isn't much data regarding antagonism in the water column granted but there wasn't much data published about EI but everyone follows it. Even the Gerloff paper that EI was derived from mentioned possible nutrient toxicity at levels we can easily reach depending on source water, bioload feeding and substrate despite weekly water changes.
http://mobile.tube.aslo.net/lo/toc/vol_11/issue_4/0529.pdf
People are changing their tune because more and more people are having issues. More people are switching to PPS-Pro. Those that dismiss the idea of metal antagonism/toxicity simply have never seen it happen.
I read ALL of Clive's posts just in the last couple of years in fact. At that time my 180litre soil tank with co2 was flourishing. I got a spray bar, mounted on the back wall and whacked my co2 up and the plants sky rocketed. Clive was the master and off I went preaching the fallacies of co2 flow and distribution (Clive and Tom sure did leave their mark in just about every forum going). I soon realised that EI just doesn't work, for everyone that is.
Think about it, if you dose to EI levels and don't 'roll your own'
how can Fertilisers be causing an issue? It must then be co2 but here's the thing. I know many hobbyists far more astute than I am that fail under the same principles as EI. We have become masters at delivering co2 to the point that we are harming our livestock. We have yellow drop checkers and powerful filters yet ADA just shoot a relatively reserved amount of co2 straight up to the surface yet they grow nice plants.Why do you think that people are changing their tune about dosing large amounts of ferts? Why did GLA alter there mixing instructions for micro ferts in august last year by a whole order of magnitude?
The reason my 180 litre took off is because I had stopped dosing micros for quite a while. My pH dropped to 5.9
Due due to co2 injection. At that pH micro nutrients are more available and they were doing fine with just the soil.
water hardness is the major issue when it comes to metals. Those with soft really can't dose much. And those with hard water (Clive) and most people on this forum who are EI advocators need to add more ferts because of precipitation. High levels of calcium compete for uptake of heavy metals so adding more helps and things improve but most of the ferts are probably just unavailable to plants. Micro nutrient available (with the exception of molybdenum) also become less available at higher pHs.
Tom wasn't even following EI for micros and was and avid water changer, as too was Clive and so nutrients probably didn't stay in solution long hence more success dosing lots.
There is no none size fits all solution to Fertilisers. That's the issue. There never will be. Some plants are ok with lots of ferts. Some are not. Some substrates contain plenty, some are inert, co2 will make a difference and so will light. Lots of fish/shrimp/snails.
There isn't much data regarding antagonism in the water column granted but there wasn't much data published about EI but everyone follows it. Even the Gerloff paper that EI was derived from mentioned possible nutrient toxicity at levels we can easily reach depending on source water, bioload feeding and substrate despite weekly water changes.
http://mobile.tube.aslo.net/lo/toc/vol_11/issue_4/0529.pdf
People are changing their tune because more and more people are having issues. More people are switching to PPS-Pro. Those that dismiss the idea of metal antagonism/toxicity simply have never seen it happen.
Silviu Man
Member
Hi!
How is the light in your tank?
How is the light in your tank?
AverageWhiteBloke
Member
Yeah it's a process of elimination dependant on each individual tank I guess. Out of all the points you raise there I think the key one to me is "frequent water changers" I am starting to come to the conclusion after years of being a member of this board that the common denominator in most tanks and something that is often over looked is cleanliness and general tank husbandry. I'll try and explain, with using Tapatalk I get to know when someone starts a journal etc. I see their preparation and fert regime, the lime green DC and on paper what could possibly go wrong. I actually wait about 4 weeks and the next thing boom, the post is algae related. First port of call is ferts and lights, people understand lighting especially under LED less than they do ferts so ferts is always first port of call, something they feel they have control over. very rare is it that someone will ask when was the last time you cleaned your filter or tubing.
I think there is definitely a correlation with running high lighting tanks and cleanliness and it has to be said extreme cleanliness to the point of Discus style keeping. I base this on my own tank as well, 50% WC every week with a random one when I get the time but I have noticed my algae seems to come in patterns and at it's worst if I start letting the filter go for a month without cleaning. Then when cleaned my tank seems to vastly improve for a couple of weeks. No change to co2, no change to dosing so I tend to agree with some points raised. Yes you can have too much ferts, yes you could also have as much ferts as you like without it affecting live stock but you have to keep right on top of your cleaning game.
At some point, and it's not that long, we have the filter full off rubbish pumping it back into the tank, plants growing like mad because of raised fert levels creating more waste, dirty pipes, fish food and of course the fish themselves. With lowish lighting I could imagine algae thinking hmm, this is ok to live in but in a high lit tank think waahhhaayyy. The people who seem to get away with EI dosing at top values or even more also seem to be changing water 2 or 3 times per week so yes, I can see how some people who strongly advocate EI could be getting away with it because the rest of their regime is right on the money. I don't keep tanks for a living and certainly don't have that amount of time to spend so for some people EI may not be the right option for them. EI was never intended to be a silver bullet and I do also think it might be dangerous in the wrong hands, it's also a very broad range and I don't think ferts should always be the first place to look when we have issues, I just can't accept that plants are that fussy eaters I think.
Coming back to the OP who I need to apologise again to for the major hijack
in the OP case I think plant deficit is slightly better than the algae situation. At least they know the plant is wanting something, it's just figuring which and why. I said that as if it was easy But I often wonder when dosing EI some people want to jump right in at top levels and take no chances where as maybe a more pragmatic approach would be to start at some level using an educated guess and based on what you know about your lighting and work up rather than down the EI scale. Could certainly rule out antagonism before it gets hold and stops the downward spiral of adding more things it probably doesn't need. At least when deficiency is seen you can say well chances are I'm not adding enough of something rather than trying to work out what is fighting with what. Deal with one at a time even it it means sacrificing some fast growing weeds or floaters.
I think there is definitely a correlation with running high lighting tanks and cleanliness and it has to be said extreme cleanliness to the point of Discus style keeping. I base this on my own tank as well, 50% WC every week with a random one when I get the time but I have noticed my algae seems to come in patterns and at it's worst if I start letting the filter go for a month without cleaning. Then when cleaned my tank seems to vastly improve for a couple of weeks. No change to co2, no change to dosing so I tend to agree with some points raised. Yes you can have too much ferts, yes you could also have as much ferts as you like without it affecting live stock but you have to keep right on top of your cleaning game.
At some point, and it's not that long, we have the filter full off rubbish pumping it back into the tank, plants growing like mad because of raised fert levels creating more waste, dirty pipes, fish food and of course the fish themselves. With lowish lighting I could imagine algae thinking hmm, this is ok to live in but in a high lit tank think waahhhaayyy. The people who seem to get away with EI dosing at top values or even more also seem to be changing water 2 or 3 times per week so yes, I can see how some people who strongly advocate EI could be getting away with it because the rest of their regime is right on the money. I don't keep tanks for a living and certainly don't have that amount of time to spend so for some people EI may not be the right option for them. EI was never intended to be a silver bullet and I do also think it might be dangerous in the wrong hands, it's also a very broad range and I don't think ferts should always be the first place to look when we have issues, I just can't accept that plants are that fussy eaters I think.
Coming back to the OP who I need to apologise again to for the major hijack
in the OP case I think plant deficit is slightly better than the algae situation. At least they know the plant is wanting something, it's just figuring which and why. I said that as if it was easy But I often wonder when dosing EI some people want to jump right in at top levels and take no chances where as maybe a more pragmatic approach would be to start at some level using an educated guess and based on what you know about your lighting and work up rather than down the EI scale. Could certainly rule out antagonism before it gets hold and stops the downward spiral of adding more things it probably doesn't need. At least when deficiency is seen you can say well chances are I'm not adding enough of something rather than trying to work out what is fighting with what. Deal with one at a time even it it means sacrificing some fast growing weeds or floaters.
AverageWhiteBloke
Member
Had a think about it and my observations based on tanks that shouldn't go wrong but do.
I feel the majority of people who frequent here probably don't have the type of tank that requires dosing at EI top levels. So they start a tank and get advised to be belt and braces, start EI straight away not wanting to take any chances on that shiny new dream set up and the plants they've just spent hard earned on, understandable.
So not many plants in who are just waking out of a state of hibernation by being grown emerged in gel or spent 3 days in the post. They have soil in that carries nutrients already, the filter starts doing its job and at the end of the process starts pumping nitrate into the water then the fish go in compounding pollution further. Plants look a bit ropey while they build up some fat and the owner panics, turn the co2 up and get more ferts in is the general rule of thumb.
I can quite easily see how within the space of three or four weeks a tank could be quite easily getting to the point where ferts were antagonising each other quite quickly especially if your tap water was pretty high in nitrate or po4 to start with.
Next step you notice plant deficiency, how could this be, more ferts go in to be on the safe side. Before long we have deficient plants which have slowed growth and more and more ferts being added, hello algae, hello misery.
I could quite easily see how this situation could arise and seems to be a pattern I notice in here but couldn't put the pieces together. I don't think EI dosing is the issue more the implementation of it and it wouldn't do any harm for people to start with a lot lower doses and see where it goes from there.
Coming back to the op and soils advice, eventually haha, yeah if antagonism is suspected best to go back and start from the beginning. I think it's also something I will try. No ferts except traces and some large water changes and build up to the point where putting more ferts in is probably pointless. Certainly will be easier to do with an established tank than new I reckon. Everything is against you in a new setup.
Thanks for bearing with me while I thought aloud
Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk
I feel the majority of people who frequent here probably don't have the type of tank that requires dosing at EI top levels. So they start a tank and get advised to be belt and braces, start EI straight away not wanting to take any chances on that shiny new dream set up and the plants they've just spent hard earned on, understandable.
So not many plants in who are just waking out of a state of hibernation by being grown emerged in gel or spent 3 days in the post. They have soil in that carries nutrients already, the filter starts doing its job and at the end of the process starts pumping nitrate into the water then the fish go in compounding pollution further. Plants look a bit ropey while they build up some fat and the owner panics, turn the co2 up and get more ferts in is the general rule of thumb.
I can quite easily see how within the space of three or four weeks a tank could be quite easily getting to the point where ferts were antagonising each other quite quickly especially if your tap water was pretty high in nitrate or po4 to start with.
Next step you notice plant deficiency, how could this be, more ferts go in to be on the safe side. Before long we have deficient plants which have slowed growth and more and more ferts being added, hello algae, hello misery.
I could quite easily see how this situation could arise and seems to be a pattern I notice in here but couldn't put the pieces together. I don't think EI dosing is the issue more the implementation of it and it wouldn't do any harm for people to start with a lot lower doses and see where it goes from there.
Coming back to the op and soils advice, eventually haha, yeah if antagonism is suspected best to go back and start from the beginning. I think it's also something I will try. No ferts except traces and some large water changes and build up to the point where putting more ferts in is probably pointless. Certainly will be easier to do with an established tank than new I reckon. Everything is against you in a new setup.
Thanks for bearing with me while I thought aloud
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Daveslaney
Member
My thought would be improve your flow the the area where the affected plants are see if the situation improves.
If you are dosing full EI you are non limiting fert levels? So how can it be a deficiency? More likely a mobile issue where lack of flow to the afected area is not supplying the fert to the affected plants?
If you are dosing full EI you are non limiting fert levels? So how can it be a deficiency? More likely a mobile issue where lack of flow to the afected area is not supplying the fert to the affected plants?
Daveslaney
Member
I would also try adding some magnesium sulphate(epsom salts) to your macro mix.
Even if you live in a hard water area chances are most of yoir water hardness is made up of calcium. Lack of magnesium can limit the plants uptake of other ferts.
Even if you live in a hard water area chances are most of yoir water hardness is made up of calcium. Lack of magnesium can limit the plants uptake of other ferts.
Vivian Andrew
Member
Hari you adding only RO water right, so it's magnesium issue mainly add some gh buffer like seachem equilibrium or make your own below is a link which i used to make my minerals.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm
Please stop inventing your own dosing scheme. This is not EI.....I guarantee 99.99% of the people who invent their own dosing scheme have deficiency issues. Oh you are.
Please dose EI correctly, you have not included magnesium sulphate for some very strange reason. It is the cheapest EI ingredient and there are no issues if you over dose. Please don't say magnesium is in your water, as it is clearly not.
Hari Sankar
Member
Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini' has GSA on the leaves and turning yellow on older leaves
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