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What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance

dw1305 said:
We don't know exactly which specie(s) of Rhodophyta we have in the aquarium
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Also, the paper "Algae need their vitamins" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1539151/#!po=35.0467 includes the following statement:

"More than half of all microalgae surveyed (Table(Table1;1; see Table S1 in the supplemental material) (11) have an obligate requirement for exogenous vitamin B12, leading to the remarkable conclusion that auxotrophy is the norm rather than the exception in the algal kingdom, despite the fact that these organisms are photosynthetic."

I.e. More than half of the micro algae species must obtain vitamin B12 from another organism.

In table 1, it states that of the 13 Rhodophyta (red algae - the family we suspect BBA belongs to) species surveyed, 12/13 required vitamin B12 (cobalamin) from other organisms.

My point is, it may not matter which exact species of Rhodophyta algae BBA is, it is likely it will require an external source of vitamin B12 to grow.
 
So how can we get rid of B12?

I just read that plants don't make B12. They can only get it from bacteria. That would explain why 90% of vegetarians have noticeable nutrient deficiencies visible in the condition of their skin.
 
I've just read that non-vegetarian humans get their vitamin B12 from sheep and cattle. It's produced by micro-organisms in their gut. For vegans this can be a real problem, and they need to make sure they eat certain foods containing vitamin B12 supplements.

I'm suggesting that under the right conditions, the heterotrophic bacteria is producing enough vitamin B12 for the algae to flourish. This may be if it is able to consume enough organic carbon.

I've been re-reading a couple of papers since you posted about the blue filter dropping the light intensity. One experiment involved putting just a very simple type of algae and heterotrophic bacteria in a flask to see what happened at different light intensities. They found that above a certain light intensity, the algae produced an excess of organic carbon molecules, which it excreted and the heterotrophic bacteria consumed. They knew this because this was the only way the bacteria could carbon to grow.

Organic carbon levels generally increasing in the tank, may provide the heterotrophic bacteria with the food they need (excess food, failing plant leaves, rotting driftwood with a high C/N ratio).

Also, I need to re-read this in the "Algae need their vitamins" paper, but I think it made reference to several studies that had shown that certain algae won't grow if vitamin B12 is below a certain concentration.

So what do we need to do? You already know the answer:
- Gravel vac, cut off dead leaves, don't feed excess food, keep amano shrimp etc - to remove or reduce the carbon available to the heterotrophic bacteria
- Perform water changes - to reduce the concentration of organic carbon and vitamin B12 in the water column
- Clean your filter - to prevent a build up of organic carbon in your filter medium

I'm going to stick my neck out a bit further:

- Watch out for light intensity - the algae may be photosynthesising more and producing more organic carbon by fixing inorganic CO2 for the bacteria, which in turn enables the bacteria to produce vitamin B12, enabling the algae to grow.

- Make sure you have sufficient flow - to transport gases to the good bacteria (O2, CO2, bicarbonate), to transport organic carbon back to the filter and to mix the water and help prevent the conditions becoming favourable in any spot.

For example, a bit of excess food enables a population of bacteria to grow, which creates a high enough concentration of organic carbon in an area out of the flow, so bacteria produces a high local concentration of vitamin B12 ... I think the BBA is worse in my tank where micro granules of food get caught in leaves or in a hole in a rock, just out of the flow.

However, it could also be the case that in the flow, more molecules are passing for the algae to grab.

The point is, the cure seems to be things that the experts advise us to do. I'm suggesting that another reason why they are a good idea is that they help to control the population of heterotrophic bacteria and in turn the algae.
 
In my previous post I made reference to an amount of vitamin B12 required for certain algae to grow:

"Several studies have shown that different vitamin B12-dependent algae require at least 10 ng/liter cobalamin (vitamin B12) in order to grow (50)."

From the paper "Algae Need Their Vitamins" by Martin T Croft et al

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1539151/#!po=35.0467

Where:
50. Provasoli, L., and A. F. Carlucci. 1974. Vitamins and growth regulators, p. 741-787. InW. D. P. Stewart (ed.), Algal physiology and biochemistry. Blackwell Scientific Publications.
 
Just to add: the relationship between B12-producing bacteria and BBA also extends to other kinds of algae such as GDA and GSA. That's why antibiotics, such as erythromycin, can get rid of GDA because it kills the B12-producing bacteria. This also explains the characteristic circular growth of GSA as the bacteria multiply outward.

Do we know if these bacteria are obligate aerobes? I suspect they also survive in anaerobic conditions, possibly producing more B12 under anaerobic conditions than aerobic ones. But that's just a guess.

That may also explain how the Twinstar works to control algae growth: it oxidizes bacteria. It also explains why algae never grows on heaters: it gets too hot for anything to survive.

Also, I wonder if cyanobacteria evolved after a bacterium engulfed an alga, but instead of breaking the alga down for nutrients, it somehow survived and provided nutrients for the bacteria.

A UV sterilizer should work to kill off some of the free-floating bacteria which should reduce the formation of algae.
 
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Guest said:
the relationship between B12-producing bacteria and BBA also extends to other kinds of algae such as GDA and GSA.
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This is very interesting! I'm trying to focus on strengthening the case for BBA outbreaks only, but if this argument could extend to other species of algae, that would add a lot more value.

The autotrophic bacteria are obligate aerobes (they must have oxygen to function).

I think some of the heterotrophic bacteria are not obligate aerobes. I've read that in the absence of oxygen, some heterotrophic bacteria can de-nitrify nitrites and nitrates back to nitrogen gas (completing the nitrogen cycle). I think one of the Biocon labs URLs in my first post describes how you could set up a deep sand system in a marine tank to do just this.

The following paper shows how heterotrophic bacteria can create vitamin B12 via an aerobic pathway (Pseudomonas Denitrificans) and an anaerobic pathway (Bacillus Megaterium) MetaCyc adenosylcobalamin biosynthesis I (anaerobic)

As you say this is a guess, but I wondered about more B12 being produced in anaerobic conditions.

If CO2 were high, then dropped, the plants may produce less O2 meaning that a large population of heterotrophic bacteria may deplete the oxygen. Some of the aerobic heterotrophic bacteria may die but this may allow the anaerobic bacteria population to increase and they may produce more vitamin B12. I wondered if this could be the link between a drop in CO2 triggering a B12 (and hence BBA) increase. However, I thought the fish would show obvious signs of distress if oxygen were depleted to this level.

Instead, I wonder if a drop in oxygen would switch off the autotrophic bacteria meaning an increase in ammonia / urea. The heterotrophic bacteria require less oxygen and without competition may be more able to produce vitamin B12. Algae are able to use ammonia as their nitrogen source rather nitrates. I wondered if the carbon molecules the algae excrete may be different when using ammonia/urea instead of nitrates, more likely to promote the bacteria to synthesise B12.

Regarding Twinstar releasing ozone, I read on Wikipedia that (Ozone - Wikipedia )
  • ozone cracks carbon - carbon bonds (it may break down the Vitamin B12 to smaller molecules)
  • ozone is used to kill bacteria
  • ozone oxidises ammonia to ammonium nitrate
  • ozone breaks down urea entirely

Ozone may slow down but not reverse the growth of BBA.

Thank you. Interesting comments!
 
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So after some reading, it turns out that UV sterilizers do work to prevent algae. Users report that they don't get algae as often on the glass. It doesn't prevent it entirely, however; cleaning still must be performed once every three weeks instead of every week.

About the CO2 drop, it's unlikely that O2 would deplete so quickly that fish would be distressed. There should still be a lot of oxygen exchange occurring at the surface.
Perhaps it has nothing to do with O2. Is it possible that bacterial growth is inhibited by high levels of CO2? And that a drop from this level makes it much easier for bacteria to colonize?

This reminds me of something I observed in one of my tanks a couple of years ago: there was a very short type of fuzz algae, very dense like a golf course, growing on some rocks. But what was strange was that there were circular areas without this algae and it was expanding, as if some kind of bacteria was colonizing and preventing the algae from adhering to the rocks. Here's a picture of it:
Algaeeating_zps85a24454.jpg
The short green fuzz used to cover most of the rock surface. You can see all the areas where the fuzz is disappearing in a very peculiar pattern and it is not being eaten by any shrimp or animal. Eventually, all the fuzz disappeared as the circular empty parts expanded. So perhaps, there is a bacterium that prevents algae from forming...
 
Interesting discussion Andy. I have a few things to add.

A lot of heterotrophic bacteria is facultative. They can live under aerobic or anaerobic conditions. They can "feed" on different things depending on the conditions.
Take for example a bacterial bloom that causes cloudy water. This is caused by heterotrophic bacteria that normally lives in the substrate in anaerobic conditions. But when released in the water column, they switch to oxidation mode, start multiplying like rabbits every couple of hours(as opposed to 24-48 hours which is the rate for nitrifying bacteria). Thus they overtake the tank surfaces, outcompeting nitrifying bacteria for space and oxygen and leading to an ammonia spike because although they oxidize ammonia, they are about one million times less efficient than nitrifying bacteria. This will affect the inhabitants in two ways, ammonia and low oxygen. Because we are talking about billions of bacteria outcompeting nitrifying bacteria and fish.

Also, for example when one sets up a tank with soil. The amount of high organics in the soil literally sucks up all oxygen from the tank, faster than it can be produced if one hasn't supplied a good amount via other means. Some people setting up low tech tanks thing that the less surface agitation, the less carbon dioxide will escape and promote good plant growth but actually the opposite happens. The decomposing bacteria needs oxygen. Once they've drained the oxygen, they'll keep decomposing via other means. The substrate will become anoxic and full of toxic substances like ammonia, hydrogen sulphate and methane, which kills plant roots, then kills the plants, then this leading to less oxygen and from there it gets bad for everything in the tank.

The good heterotrophs that one wants are the same ones that use oxygen to decompose organics. But too high organics at any one time can be a problem in many ways. But in any way, you want to promote high oxygen levels in the water column and in the substrate to support nitrifying bacteria and decomposing bacteria respectively, but such decomposing bacteria that uses carbon and oxygen to produce carbon dioxide, not one that produces methane and hydrogen sulphide.

I would presume that high organics will shift the balance to more heterotrophs of different types, invading not just the substrate but other surfaces, competing with nitrifying bacteria, and also more B12 in turn as suggested. Whether this is the cause or not, it's pretty obvious that in high organics tanks algae and especially BBA loves it for one or another reason.

When we disturb the substrate, a lot of bad things can happen, the minimum an ammonia spike but one is essentially releasing all good and bad bi-products of bacteria and facultative heterotrophic bacteria escapes in the water column where you don't want it.

Heterotrophs are also an essential part of the food chain. Some of them are enemies of protozoa and other pathogenic bacteria. They keep a tank "healthy"

Also, when you add antibiotics or medicine in the tank, you are essentially killing certain bacteria on a mass scale. You may kill the pathogenic bacteria causing the fish's to get sick or the ones that promote algae growth but at the same time you may kill the enemies of other pathogens in the tank which until then were kept in check, thus causing a different imbalance and this is left to the fish to deal with. The ones with good immune system may fight it off, the ones with bad one(possibly subjected to imbalanced tank for a long time) will start randomly getting sick.

A tank with fish that randomly get sick is an imbalanced tank from many perspectives. That's why when I see a big algae outbreak, I think we talk about imbalance and not necessarily just bad aesthetics, but other bad bugs multiplying out of proportion in the invisible to us fish tank world, which we can't comprehend easily.
The algae itself is not the bad guy, but the reason for it to flourish is not necessarily a good thing.
 
As you say, UV is used, in ponds, for example to control algae, which could be very appropriate.

Some of the reported triggers of an outbreak of BBA (e.g. sensitivity to blue / UV light) are also similar to the factors that inhibit autotrophic bacteria from functioning.

As well as killing the algae, it may also be killing the autotrophic (nitrifying) bacteria in the water column, preventing it from colonising new sites.

Also, the autotrophic bacteria require a lot of oxygen to convert ammonia to nitrates (75 molecules of O2 are required to create one molecule of organic carbon C5H7O2N).

My argument is that ammonia / urea are compounds that BBA requires to grow / reproduce. Therefore, you need to protect the autotrophic bacteria to keep it converting ammonia / urea to nitrite / nitrate. To do this, you should ensure the autotrophic bacteria has a good supply of oxygen and avoid other inhibiting factors (e.g. UV lights possibly).

The following is why I think there is a link between ammonia / urea plus vitamin B12 and BBA reproduction.

In the paper "Influence of vitamin B auxotrophy on nitrogen metabolism in eukaryotic phytoplankton" by Bertrand and Allen (
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fmicb.2012.00375/full), they include the following diagram:
ureacyclevitaminb12.jpe


The Urea and TCA (The Citric Acid) cycles are common pathways for a lot of organisms.

I think this diagram shows:
- how ammonia and urea feed into the urea cycle, which begins the overall process
- where vitamin B12 and ammonia are required to complete the process
- that spermidine is eventually produced by this process, which feeds into the production of polyamines (e.g. Spermine).

On Wikipedia, in the entry for Spermidine, it states (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermidine):
Spermidine is synthesized from putrescine and is a precursor of spermine.

On Wikipedia, in the entry for Red Algae, under the section for Fetilisation it states that when fertilisation takes place:
The polyamine spermine is produced, which triggers carpospore production.

Wikipedia defines:
A carpospore is a diploidspore produced by red algae. After fertilization, the alga's carpogonium subdivides into carpospores, and generally the largest type of spore (larger than bispores, which are larger again than tetraspores).[1] The wall of the carpogonium then breaks down, releasing the spores into the environment.[2]

My argument is that an increase in ammonia / urea plus vitamin B12 feeds into the process that eventually leads to the BBA reproducing.
 
Sciencefiction,

Thank you very much for writing such a detailed response.

A couple of points to reinforce what you have said.

The TGM website http://www.thegreenmachineonline.com/blog/filter-media-introduction/ says the following about ADA NA Carbon product:

"It is therefore particularly useful in the first 6-8 weeks of an aquascape’s lifespan, when the beneficial bacteria are still colonising the filter and the impurity levels tend to be quite high. ADA NA Carbon will reach its absorptive peak after about 8 weeks, when it is best to remove it and replace it with ADA Bio Rio or ADA Bamboo Charcoal."

I'm interpreting this to mean that you should take steps to filter out organic carbon and starve the heterotrophic bacteria while the nitrifying bacteria populations are growing (ammonia release from Aquasoil initially high), but once the organic carbon has collected on the activated carbon, you should remove it to prevent it from becoming a food store for the heterotrophic bacteria.

I agree that the heterotrophic bacteria are carrying out a very important role in the aquarium.

As you have said, I'm suggesting that if there is an imbalance in the populations of the heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria, this is when BBA may flourish.

However, one last bit of Heterotrophic bacteria bashing!

Oscarfish.com has an article on Heterotrophic bacteria, which includes the statement:
"Heterotrophic bacteria in our tanks are generally from the genera Pseudomonas and Bacillus. It is important to note that some species of Pseudomonas bacteria are believed to be the cause of some bacterial ulcerations in our fish."

There are various reasons for preventing heterotrophic bacteria from getting out of control and possibly creating an unhealthy aquarium.
 
AndyMcD said:
Heterotrophic bacteria in our tanks are generally from the genera Pseudomonas and Bacillus. It is important to note that some species of Pseudomonas bacteria are believed to be the cause of some bacterial ulcerations in our fish
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This i find a dangerous conclusion. There are a lot of Pseudomonas spp, not all are pathogens for our fish. And most often there are pathogens in our environment which are oportunistic (only become dangerous when the conditions are "right" or "wrong")
Just finding a species doesn't mean these are the cause of disease.
 
Edvet said:
This i find a dangerous conclusion. There are a lot of Pseudomonas spp, not all are pathogens for our fish. And most often there are pathogens in our environment which are oportunistic (only become dangerous when the conditions are "right" or "wrong")
Just finding a species doesn't mean these are the cause of disease.
Click to expand...

Edvet, I'm guilty of repeating the information from the Oscarfish website.

You're of course correct. It is a dangerous conclusion to imply that all Pseudomonas bacteria are pathogens to fish.

There are some which can cause infection in organisms.

For example, in the paper I mentioned previously (the Canadian scientists who bought lots of plants from aquatic shops and swabbed them for bacteria), they were looking for Pseudomonas Aeruginosa, which apparently could cause infections in humans (the unwell and old).

Isolation of Pseudomonas aeruginosa and other bacterial species from ornamental aquarium plants' http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC169867/.

The point I was trying to make (in support of Sciencefiction) was that an imbalanced population of bacteria may not be good for lots of reasons (other than it potentially contributing to algae outbreaks).

However, as you say, SOME of the bacteria may only become a threat if the conditions go wrong.

I haven't really got anything against heterotrophic bacteria. Honest.
 
So what information don't we know to understand this complex process?

If the growth of these kinds of algae are due to the symbiotic relationship with B12-producing microorganisms, then possible solutions are:
1) prevent these microbes from growing
2) remove B12 from water
3) introduce non-B12-producing bacteria
4) something else entirely

If it's a bacterial imbalance, how can it be balanced and with what?
 
Thanks for asking these questions. Unfortunately I've got to go to work. I'll respond later today. Many of the answers are what the experts already recommend that we should do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Aaah, I missed these kind of discussion on UKAPS. I love it when people search for causes instead of 'dose more ferts and algae goes away'.

I've had quite a topic about this on another forum a few years ago: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/87902-cause-solution-bba.html

The reason I started looking for it is because a tank can run fine without algae and simply by feeding more I can get BBA. More food is more ammonia -> I tested this and daily add urea and ammonia now, and my tank is free of BBA...

My findings are that the more oxygen I get in the tank the less BBA I've. The more organics are present the more BBA.

Organics from dying leaves, food whatever seems to promote BBA. If I add more oxygen (aeration at night a la Amano, or overflow like Barr) is less algae. But my hypothesis is totally different so I wonder what you think about that.

I simply think organics trigger BBA to grow.

About filtration and bacteria, I translated a Dutch article for APC a few years ago and for those that are not familiar with terms like heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...1-biological-filtration-translated-dutch.html

Heterotrophic bacteria break down organics. They need loads of oxygen for this. When either heterotropic bacteria or oxygen is low, organics aren't broken down and BBA uses the high organics. When pH is low 24/7 due to 24/7 CO2, bacteria work less efficient compared to high pH and organics aren't broken down (aeration at night raises pH as well, double effect!) When plants are dying because of low CO2 or low ferts, they release organics that promote BBA, so ferts and CO2 is part of the equation, but not the only part.

So IME autotrophics have little to do with BBA. In fact, although autotrophics are very efficient, I think they play a very small role in our planted tanks. Plants do most part and archaea do more than bacteria in converting ammonia. (can't find the article right now).

Just my two cents, and looking forward to your thought about it!


PS. I hope linking to another forum isn't a problem...
 
Yo-Han, thank you for the response.

Beginning to really wish I wasn't in work today!

I'll try and give you my thoughts this evening.
 
Guest said:
So what information don't we know to understand this complex process?

If the growth of these kinds of algae are due to the symbiotic relationship with B12-producing microorganisms, then possible solutions are:
1) prevent these microbes from growing
2) remove B12 from water
3) introduce non-B12-producing bacteria
4) something else entirely

If it's a bacterial imbalance, how can it be balanced and with what?
Click to expand...

Guest,

So what information don't we know to understand this complex process?
- How does light fit in? Does this species of algae require more light energy to grow and reproduce?

Possible solutions are:
1) Prevent these microbes from growing
Heterotrophic bacteria consume the organic carbon in the aquarium (excess food, fish waste, stressed or dying leaves, melted leaves, decaying driftwood). To prevent them from multiplying, you can minimise the food available to them by keeping on top of maintaining the aquarium:
  • Water changes to reduce dissolved organic carbon in the water column
  • Remove dead and dying leaves
  • Provide nutrients to keep the plants healthy. Stressed leaves may begin to release organics.
  • Provide good flow to ensure that CO2 and nitrates are reaching the leaves
  • Include a clean up crew to eat the organics before the bacteria can
  • Gravel vac to remove waste
  • Provide good flow to prevent localised issues with organic carbon accumulating
This is the standard advice for maintaining the aquarium, which has the effect of controlling the population of heterotrophic bacteria

2) Remove B12 from the water
By controlling the population of heterotrophic bacteria, you may prevent the concentration of vitamin B12 reaching the point where the algae can begin to benefit. The concentration of vitamin B12 can be reduced by carrying out water changes.
This would appear to be standard advice for maintaining your aquarium. Once BBA begins to appear, water changes may help to reduce the impact.

3) introduce non-B12-producing bacteria
ADA's Bacter 100 is recommended to create a healthy bacteria population in the substrate. Bacteria will be introduced into the aquarium via the substrate, plants, fish, water changes etc. The population of the different species of bacteria in the aquarium will rise and fall depending upon changes within the aquarium. It is unrealistic to believe that we can control which species of bacteria live and thrive in the aquarium.

4) Something else entirely
  • Use activated carbon for no more than 6 to 8 weeks if you have a BBA outbreak. Starve the bacteria.
  • Twinstar - Use ozone to crack long chain molecules into shorter ones and oxidise ammonia / urea

If it's a bacterial imbalance, how can it be balanced and with what?
My suggestion is that BBA flourishes when the conditions in the aquarium change to favour the heterotrophic bacteria (vitamin B12 concentration increases) and inhibit the autotrophic, nitrifying bacteria (ammonia / urea concentration increases). The two populations of bacteria can be brought back into balance by taking the steps listed above.

In this thread I'm proposing an alternative cause of outbreaks of BBA that I think fits well with the reported evidence of perceived triggers and effective controls.
 
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