Who needs a tank for a dark start…. Let’s see.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

these new bacteria still need ammonia as a food source to proliferate surely? So I don't see how this point impacts the premise of ammonia cycling.

Point taken. I think it is down to the question of ammonia loading, both in the tank and in the production of the microbial supplements.

Ideally you would want to introduce a microbial assemblage that was suitable for the ammonia level in your tank, this is why taking filter material and / or a plant and substrate from an established tank works.

cheers Darrel

 

[Dryrot]

On the broad agreement that plant decay help get things going naturally...

Three or four days per week I feed my gut microbes breakfast using a wide range of assorted vegetables and fruit. Spinach, celery, cucumber, peppers, beetroot, asparagus, and blueberries or apple or orange, rolled oats etc. Along with a dash of olive oil, root ginger, chili and turmeric. So this morning I have treated the tub of doom to a table spoon of it. Should help as it's basically the same as the tiny flakes of detritus lots of plants and decaying roots would sphed and which would end up in the filter and substrate?

I'm not mad.... really!

 

[Courtneybst]

That said, I have a minor quibble on sustainability of the hobby and want to avoid any wild caught fish or plants. I quit marines in the 90’s for this reason.

I understand, there are plenty of species being woefully overfished due to their popularity and many face complete habitat loss due to human intervention.

Playing devil's advocate, I would argue that (particularly on the freshwater side) not all ornamental wild fish catching is bad however. There are some projects and initiatives which are encouraging the conservation of fish habitats by involving local people and giving them a source of income from sustainable fishing.

The one that springs to mind is Cardinal tetras and Project Piaba. There are more examples too but they're not lighting up in my brain right now.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Plant decay will produce ammonia as it decomposes. Of course, if your setting up a plant-less tank or scarcely planted tank and plan a large stock of fish that likely wouldn't work. If you plant dense from the get go, I don't even think 6 weeks is necessary - lots of plants and some good growth is all it takes. If that is the case after 3-4 weeks then I wouldn't be worried about slowly introducing livestock.

That's it. It is the <"plants that count">, they take up all <"forms of fixed nitrogen">, they are massively <"net oxygen producers"> and they create a larger volume of space where microbial nitrification can occur. I'm guessing that what happens in the rhizosphere in the substrate is probably most important, and that is why I would <"ideally want an emergent plant">, one with <"Diana Walstad's aerial advantage">, leaking carbohydrates, proteins and oxygen into the substrate around the growing root tip.

I also have some <"hardy tank janitors"> added from early on, and they will both, act as an ammonia source and clean up organic debris.

In the Mbuna or <"insane stocking"> scenarios you would still need to add some ammonia initially until the fish load took over. I look at these scenarios as <"turned up to eleven"> situations and their microbial assemblage in a similar way. Instead of the high levels of light, heat and nutrients that plants like<"Victoria amazonica & Ludwigia sedioides"> require these are Ammonia Oxidising Bacteria (AOB) which only grew in situations with a <"huge ammonia loading and high carbonate hardness">.

Initially it was only the <"turned up to eleven AOB"> that we knew about, they are the "Polar Bears" in the linked thread. We now know that "other bears" are available.

cheers Darrel

 

[Dryrot]

I understand, there are plenty of species being woefully overfished due to their popularity and many face complete habitat loss due to human intervention.

Playing devil's advocate, I would argue that (particularly on the freshwater side) not all ornamental wild fish catching is bad however. There are some projects and initiatives which are encouraging the conservation of fish habitats by involving local people and giving them a source of income from sustainable fishing.

The one that springs to mind is Cardinal tetras and Project Piaba. There are more examples too but they're not lighting up in my brain right now.

Thank you Courtney,

I have just followed your link to Project Piaba. Fascinating and reassuring in equal measure. But how do we find out where our fish come from so that we can support these efforts?

regards Dryrot.

 

[Courtneybst]

But how do we find out where our fish come from so that we can support these efforts?

Good question! From my understanding independent retailers who are affiliated with the project and/or connected fisheries will be able to confirm that if you ask.

Admittedly they are way more prevalent in the USA compared to the UK, but some organisations here are involved for sure.

I think in general if you're conscious about it, it's good to just ask where the fish came from wherever you're buying.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Should help as it's basically the same as the tiny flakes of detritus lots of plants and decaying roots would sphed and which would end up in the filter and substrate?

Yes, but don't add too much.

I like a big <"pre-filter sponge on the filter intake">. They are the same ones I use on powerheads etc.

<"I only want dissolved substances"> (<"gases">, ions) entering the filter. I want to <"exclude all organic debris"> from the filter. I want my filter to be a <"nitrate factory"> and I want to get <"rid of any ammonia in the tank"> as rapidly as possible and I don't care how that is accomplished.

Three or four days per week I feed my gut microbes breakfast using a wide range of assorted vegetables and fruit. Spinach, celery, cucumber, peppers, beetroot, asparagus, and blueberries or apple or orange, rolled oats etc. Along with a dash of olive oil, root ginger, chili and turmeric.

Perfect, so the nitrifying microbes in the tank and filter are exactly like the microbial assemblage in your gut. If you just eat meat ("add 3 ppm ammonia") you'll end up with a certain (limited) microbial assemblage, but as you widen your diet, add in fibre, vegetables, fruit etc. ("alter the ammonia loading") you get a much wider assemblage of microbes. Because the generation time of microbes is quite short<" a complex microbial assemblage"> can respond (change in relative abundance) dependent on the food they are getting.

If we stay with a gut health analogy <"Amazon product ASIN 0062368591">, a new tank is a gut that has been cleared out with antibiotics. What we need to do is re-establish the diversity of gut microbes, we could start that with a <"faecal transplant"> (add some <"filter material, plants and substrate"> from an established tank) or via a probiotic (<"Dr Tim's One and Only"> or <"Tetra Safestart"> etc. ).

To carry on with the analogy, the sellers of various aquarium products want to keep us <"continually taking antibiotics">, <"they never want us to achieve gut health">, because that is a <"revenue stream"> gone.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

That said, I have a minor quibble on sustainability of the hobby and want to avoid any wild caught fish or plants.

We have a few threads on sustainability, personally I'm a <"rainwater user"> (& don't add CO2) partially because of those concerns.

Still trading but I stepped down as MD nearly 11 months ago. It is now something called an Employee Ownership Trust (EOT). this allows me to ease into retirement without feeling that I have abandoned my employees. They own it now

Kudos to you sir.

cheers Darrel

 

[Dryrot]

Hi all,

We have a few threads on sustainability, personally I'm a <"rainwater user"> (& don't add CO2) partially because of those concerns.

Kudos to you sir.

cheers Darrel

Thank you Darrell,

I think we are on the same page when it comes to feeding microbes (except you know what you're doing, and I am blindly searching my way). Hence the addition of some of my daily Nutrabullet. I wont be doing this much, but now and again will help keep the bacteria used to a wider range of goodies and can't do any harm (unless as you allude - I get carried way).

Although I have been attracted by the wonderful aquascapes I see on-line (especially here), I aim for a natural look and will not panic with the odd scruffy plant or algae. I aim to plant heavily from the start and will gradually raise the light intensity as the plants grow (if they don't melt). A few tetras or danios and hopefully some cory later and when the water is old enough some Oto's and maybe a shrimp or two and snails (never knowingly kept these).

I'm sort of relaxed about the CO2 from a greenhouse gas side as really the amount is miniscule from an industry that produces gazillions of tonnes for very many trades (not least for animal slaughter). But ideally, I'd rather have tank bred fishes or those from sustainable projects (as suggested by @Courtneybst ) - we'll see.

The Oase Theromo 600 has an inbuilt pre-filter that can be removed from the main canister for cleaning, without opening up the main vessel. Hopefully this will keep most dross out of the biological media (it's the main reason I chose this model). That said, another sponge over the filter inlet in the tank wont harm at all - thanks!

Ha, I am learning so much already and the tank hasn't arrived

Dryrot

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The Oase Thermo 600 has an inbuilt pre-filter

We have <"quite a bit on these">.

I'm sort of relaxed about the CO2 from a greenhouse gas side as really the amount is miniscule from an industry that produces gazillions of tonnes for very many trades (not least for animal slaughter).

I agree, not even a drop in the ocean really.

Although I have been attracted by the wonderful aquascapes I see on-line (especially here), I aim for a natural look and will not panic with the odd scruffy plant or algae. I aim to plant heavily from the start and will gradually raise the light intensity as the plants grow (if they don't melt).

I don't <"do aesthetics">, all my tanks are, survival of the fittest, <"jungles">. In terms of melting plants, <"I really like floating plants">, they have access to 415 ppm of atmospheric CO2 and first dibs on the light, which means that <"any growth issues"> are likely to relate to deficiencies of the mineral nutrients.

cheers Darrel

 

[louis_last]

That said, I have a minor quibble on sustainability of the hobby and want to avoid any wild caught fish or plants. I quit marines in the 90’s for this reason.

It's well worth considering, there was a pretty interesting thread on exactly this recently that covered a lot of angles
Aquarium freshwater fish sourced from wild?

 

[MichaelJ]

I'm sort of relaxed about the CO2 from a greenhouse gas side as really the amount is miniscule from an industry that produces gazillions of tonnes for very many trades (not least for animal slaughter).

... A rough estimate: A 2.5 Kg cylinder last for 3-4 months in a 150 L tank (according to the 2haquarist). thats 10 Kg of CO2 per year (not counting for uptake). A mature tree sucks up 25 Kg of CO2 per year... so if you want to be carbon neutral, go plant a tree or save ~20 kWh per year on your electricity as on average 0.5 Kg of CO2 is emitted per kWh of electricity produced - which can be accomplished by switching out a 15w lightbulb that burns 8 hours a day to an 8w bulb instead

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Dryrot]

Hello,
My tank is still in Germany but the Oase thermo 600 is still churning my 30 litres bucket of sludge. I fed the sludge with some of my Nutra-bullet veg mix, raw prawn and a Colliflower leaf. Now, ten days in I have 0.5 Ammonia as things have started to rot. Hope to see Nitrites and then Nitrates soon.

After much reading of the forum I have added my own version of 'botanicals' a few roasted coffee beans .

Best

Bryan.

 

[Tim Harrison]

Thank you Courtney,

I have just followed your link to Project Piaba. Fascinating and reassuring in equal measure. But how do we find out where our fish come from so that we can support these efforts?

regards Dryrot.

And there is this too

Aquarium freshwater fish sourced from wild?

This piece today in The Conversation on fish keeping and the aquarium trade caught my eye today, it mentions the issues associated with the (mainly marine) trade in wild caught fish destined for the hobby. I'm keen to only acquire freshwater fish bred in captivity for my tanks. Does anybody...

www.ukaps.org

 

[Dryrot]

Cheers @Tim Harrison. Thanks for the link.
pleased I have some ammonia in my tub of sludge but the fish will be weeks away. Once the tank arrives my plan is to add substrate and hard scape, run it in the dark for a couple of weeks. Then when I get back from Lanzaroti the heavy planting will happen and lights on low power with co2 and check stability before some danios go in. Then see how’s things go as I try to learn to look after plants. Really looking forward to when I can put some Corys and Oto’s in 😊.

Bryan

 

[Dryrot]

I feel quite pleased with myself. I set up the tub of sludge on Saturday 4th February. My hard water in a 30 litre tub and about 6 litres in the Oase Thermo 600. Quite the washing machine @ExcitableBoy , with a bit of JBL basic plus sand in the bottom. Stock media in the filter is the foam pre-filter and then 2X baskets of plastic x-thingummy-bobs, 2 of medium sponge and a final finer sponge. No ammonia, no nitrites and a trace of Nitrate from the tap water.

Fig 1 : as of today Nitrites giving way to Nitrates

I have tested almost daily and can now see signs there are good germs at work (maybe not the best ones but their in-bred cousins). There is some organic material in the sand but I added a Colliflower leaf, then a raw prawn, then a slice of cucumber and last week, a mussel (sucked clean of white wine sauce beforehand).

Ammonia took some time to arrive but all hell has been let loose once it did, quickly rising to >5m/l but peaked in a few days and is now falling fast, with Nitrites at 5m/l and then Nitrate rising past 50m/l. Textbook stuff. I know that the cheap dipping strips can be very inaccurate, but I'm discounting obvious rouge readings and looking at trends only.

Fig 2: Only a few days ago - rising Ammonia, now falling!

My new tank should be here in a week or two but by then my filter should be at least functioning better. It will take me a week or so faffing before the substrate and hardscape is all in and glued/strapped together. Only then will I transfer the filter to the tank and fill her up. There will be no lights initially, as I am still set on a 'dark start'. A thick cover on the tank while I make sure everything is working - no leaks etc. I have a holiday booked at the end of March, so I may delay the full planting for April. If things go well, I will plant up before I go I know I am not in charge and am ready to face complete and abject failure (fingers crossed though).

This will be Co2 and heavily planted from day 1 of lights on. Easy plants in the main, with maybe one or three medium ones for a challenge. Any advice here would be most welcome. Fauna will wait until April at the earliest. I hope the 600 will be strong enough to circulate the 900mmx500x500 tank through the little Sera CO2 reactor I bought of the web - mixed reviews on that, but I want to reduce bubbles in the tank if I can. I may use an air stone, timed at night when the lights are off, but all that is another story. I have an Oase skimmer too but that will be on a timer.

I have never experienced fishkeeping with these modern powerful LED lights (In my marine days I used Metal Halide floodlamps and actinic tubes). That will be a steep learning curve too. The two Oase premier units give out what seems a lot of Lumens, but I think they can be turned down in the beginning.

As soon as the tub of sludge settles I will make a little graph to illustrate the comings and goings of the NH3/4, NO2 and No3...... @dw1305 I hope that my deep substrate and gazillions of plants will make my tank 'mature' and stable enough so I can get some Cory's and Oto's in. The tub is just a way to give me a head start, bearing in mind my eternal wait for a tank to turn up

Happy planting guys

Bryan.

 

[foxfish]

Sounds great, I am happy you are enjoying yourself and telling us about it, just dont read the threads about test kits!

 

[Dryrot]

Hi @foxfish . I can't wat for the tank to get here so I can play about some more I have been 'lurking' on theforum and have learned so much already - so understand what you mean about testing. Many experienced guys don't test at all and you can't knock it. I just have no other things to go on - no plants - no fish or whathaveyou. So this is fun, and I accept that it is not strictly necessary bit hey ho, I'm less trouble for Julie (my wife), when I'm occupied. Also, these experiments teach something no matter how mundane.

Cheers for the support

 

[aec34]

im a bit worried about the plants…..

Don’t be! Seeing what will grow is part of the fun Start with some well-known undemanding ones.

maybe a shrimp or two

Shrimp are brill. They are endlessly entertaining. No, really.

 

[Dryrot]

Don’t be! Seeing what will grow is part of the fun Start with some well-known undemanding ones.

Shrimp are brill. They are endlessly entertaining. No, really.

thank you @aec34 , yes I have never kept shrimp but hope to keep some, not least because I’ve read they eat algae too!