Converting a large aquarium - suggestions welcome!

[Darwin88]

Hi all, it's been a long time since I've posted on the forums, I've just surfed the topics as an when I've needed info.

Here's my current tank:

The current setup is lots of rock work and wood with a few varieties of Java Ferns under a single TMC aquabar 1000, it's filtered by a 100 litre sump bringing the overall tank volume to 450 litres.

I want to push forward now and upgrade the lighting, increase the pressurised co2 and change the substrate to a proper planted one, it's currently Wickes block paving sand!

I've got the co2 system setup already, I've been running it very low as per the low light and plant density. Had no algae issues but the plants haven't shown any significant improvement with the addition of co2 but then it is a very low dose, less than 15ppm.

I still want to maintain a low light setup with the intention of packing the tank with mixed crypts and keep the Java ferns up high on the rocks/wood. Also maybe a carpeting plant that will do well under lower light. The single TMC aquabar is way under what I need for the above plants, it has very little spread and isn't that bright to look at so imagine the PAR is also too low for what I'll need.

Question one: Will two TMC gro beam 600's, placed end to end, give me enough light spread to cover the tank, dimmed sufficiently to suit the planting choice, or will there be too many dark spots? The tank is 1500mm long by 450mm wide, 500mm high.

I don't want to buy more LED units than I need, we all know how expensive they are

Question two: Substrate! How deep does it need to be for strong, healthy crypt growth? So many differing opinions out there ranging from 2" to 5" and the difference leads to a sizeable increase in cost. I've read about Akadama on the forums, there's some great information but I'm just not a big fan of the colour. Given my slow growing plant choice I'll probably be looking at it for a while before the plants fill out.

If I can get away with a 2" bed, I'll go for an off the shelf aquarium substrate such as Eco-complete or flora base. Any deeper and I think I'll have to economise and opt for something like Akadama. If that's the case, can anyone suggest a reliable carpeting plant that will cover the substrate fairly fast for a low light, co2 injected tank? I haven't had much luck with hair grass in a similar setup so it probably needs to be something less demanding than that.

Last question, anyone else run co2 injection on sump filtered tanks? I've eliminated water turbulence in the sump and covered it with glass but even then to reach 30ppm I was running at an uncountable bubble per second rate through an UP inline diffuser. Fortunately I get 6.5kg cylinders for £18 a few miles from where I live but still, it seems excessive. Anyone else have a similar experience or find that to be normal on this size tank?

Sorry for throwing 3 rather subjective and varying questions all at once but I've drowned in information while planning this and I've reached the point where I just needed to ask some people in the know directly!

Thanks,

Rich




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[alto]

500mm high.

this is where you want 2-3 watt LED's rather than the 0.2 - 0.5 watt emitters offered in most lower priced LED systems - by the time the light reaches substrate, PAR will be much lower than HOT5's

For substrate, I'd suggest Tropica Aquasoil - it's much more resistant to crush/crumble effect than some of the others on the market (I've got the "powder" version in my tanks & even after 18months & several re-scapes, it looks quite like new) & doesn't release ammonia so works better if you want to add fish back or shrimp etc

Eco-complete is a very different type of substrate - look at previous discussions on ukaps

I think your 2inch depth will work fine, most crypts will send lateral roots as well ... there may be some species that won't do as well but Mick.Dk can answer this much better

I don't think you need more than moderate levels of CO2 - you can also look at running lower levels 24/7
Tropica Layout 19

For economy in lights & substrate, just plan on specific planted areas - look at Yo-han's 1000+
There are a few people running sumps on planted tanks, it just doesn't come up for discussion much (Tom Barr is one example )

It's always "better" ie cheaper/easier etc to learn plant growing in smaller tanks, you certainly could benefit by expanding plant purchases with emerse growth propagation, also use this as a way to maintain plant types

For LED's etc check the classified sections, shop display units etc

Excellent wood in that tank
- overall a very nice tank ... who was in there?

 

[Darwin88]

Thanks for your comprehensive reply! Much appreciated

Regarding 2-3 watt emitter LED's, do you or anyone else know if the TMC grobeams have these? I've just been looking at the tech specs on various links but I can't see anything about the emitter wattage. I've read that they are powerful LED's though so I was hoping they would be strong enough.

I hope you're right about 2" substrate, that will save me a lot of money. I've learned from past mistakes that cheaping out causes headaches later but I'm still cautious about overspending if it's not entirely necessary.

The livestock in the tank were all rescued from my dad's, I had to break his tank down and all his fish ended up in mine. There's 8 peppered cory's, 2 yoyo loaches, 1 red tail black shark, 4 Bolivian Rams, 1 Opaline Gourami and a shoal of Celestial Pearl Danio's. I think I'm going to rehome most of the above when I change the substrate out in the next few weeks. I'm a bit picky about fish and most of them don't suit my style!












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Darwin88]

Just read that the grobeam emitters are 2.4w each, sounds like they'll be ok.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ian_m]

One way to estimate the no of GroBeams needed it to work from T5 HO tubes and knowing that a GroBeam 1500 is 2000lumens.

You haven't stated you tank dimensions, but you state volume is 350 litres. Tanks are roughly x cm high by x cm deep by 3x wide, 3x^3 = 350,000cm^3, so x is about 50cm. So assuming 150cm wide.

A 120cm T5 HO tube is 4900 lumen, a typical two tubes over the tank is about 10000lumens.

So you are looking at 5 GroBeam tiles if your tank is 150cm wide, which neatly matches something I read somewhere that said about 1 GroBeam per 30cm tank width.

How about one of these for 150cm wide, only £170, will easily match the GroBeams.
https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/un...-universal-4-tube-150cm.html?___store=default

 

[markk]

Hi all, it's been a long time since I've posted on the forums, I've just surfed the topics as an when I've needed info.

Here's my current tank:

The current setup is lots of rock work and wood with a few varieties of Java Ferns under a single TMC aquabar 1000, it's filtered by a 100 litre sump bringing the overall tank volume to 450 litres.

I want to push forward now and upgrade the lighting, increase the pressurised co2 and change the substrate to a proper planted one, it's currently Wickes block paving sand!

I've got the co2 system setup already, I've been running it very low as per the low light and plant density. Had no algae issues but the plants haven't shown any significant improvement with the addition of co2 but then it is a very low dose, less than 15ppm.

I still want to maintain a low light setup with the intention of packing the tank with mixed crypts and keep the Java ferns up high on the rocks/wood. Also maybe a carpeting plant that will do well under lower light. The single TMC aquabar is way under what I need for the above plants, it has very little spread and isn't that bright to look at so imagine the PAR is also too low for what I'll need.

Question one: Will two TMC gro beam 600's, placed end to end, give me enough light spread to cover the tank, dimmed sufficiently to suit the planting choice, or will there be too many dark spots? The tank is 1500mm long by 450mm wide, 500mm high.

I don't want to buy more LED units than I need, we all know how expensive they are

Question two: Substrate! How deep does it need to be for strong, healthy crypt growth? So many differing opinions out there ranging from 2" to 5" and the difference leads to a sizeable increase in cost. I've read about Akadama on the forums, there's some great information but I'm just not a big fan of the colour. Given my slow growing plant choice I'll probably be looking at it for a while before the plants fill out.

If I can get away with a 2" bed, I'll go for an off the shelf aquarium substrate such as Eco-complete or flora base. Any deeper and I think I'll have to economise and opt for something like Akadama. If that's the case, can anyone suggest a reliable carpeting plant that will cover the substrate fairly fast for a low light, co2 injected tank? I haven't had much luck with hair grass in a similar setup so it probably needs to be something less demanding than that.

Last question, anyone else run co2 injection on sump filtered tanks? I've eliminated water turbulence in the sump and covered it with glass but even then to reach 30ppm I was running at an uncountable bubble per second rate through an UP inline diffuser. Fortunately I get 6.5kg cylinders for £18 a few miles from where I live but still, it seems excessive. Anyone else have a similar experience or find that to be normal on this size tank?

Sorry for throwing 3 rather subjective and varying questions all at once but I've drowned in information while planning this and I've reached the point where I just needed to ask some people in the know directly!

Thanks,

Rich




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I use tescos cat litter (aka Akadama) in my main tank. It is much cheaper than other choices and plants are fine...

But - i gave up on my hc carpet after about 9 months. The litter is so light that it is disturbed just too easily. Carpets really need plenty of attention to keep detritus from accumulating in the lower levels and the hc would inevitably shift/lift sooner or later.

If you're still interested in using it, a 30 litre bag will set you back about £11 in petsathome - so very economical.

Cheers, Mark

 

[Darwin88]

One way to estimate the no of GroBeams needed it to work from T5 HO tubes and knowing that a GroBeam 1500 is 2000lumens.

You haven't stated you tank dimensions, but you state volume is 350 litres. Tanks are roughly x cm high by x cm deep by 3x wide, 3x^3 = 350,000cm^3, so x is about 50cm. So assuming 150cm wide.

A 120cm T5 HO tube is 4900 lumen, a typical two tubes over the tank is about 10000lumens.

So you are looking at 5 GroBeam tiles if your tank is 150cm wide, which neatly matches something I read somewhere that said about 1 GroBeam per 30cm tank width.

How about one of these for 150cm wide, only £170, will easily match the GroBeams.
https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/un...-universal-4-tube-150cm.html?___store=default

Thanks for working that out! It matches with what I'd worked out for a high light tank of my size and the thought of buying 5 tiles at £130 each terrified me!

I'm set on LED though, I've recently been on a mission in the house replacing all of our light fittings with LED units because I just love those energy savings

Budget constraints mean I just can't run this tank as a high light LED system. The start up cost is too much, regardless of the energy savings. That's why I'm aiming for a lower light setup with the hope of still being LED, but using less of them to reduce the up front cost.

Thanks for your suggestion though. It's certainly something to consider if just 2-3 grow beams aren't going to cut it.

 

[Darwin88]

I use tescos cat litter (aka Akadama) in my main tank. It is much cheaper than other choices and plants are fine...

But - i gave up on my hc carpet after about 9 months. The litter is so light that it is disturbed just too easily. Carpets really need plenty of attention to keep detritus from accumulating in the lower levels and the hc would inevitably shift/lift sooner or later.

If you're still interested in using it, a 30 litre bag will set you back about £11 in petsathome - so very economical.

Cheers, Mark

Thanks Mark, which brand is it from pets at home? I've read about using Tesco's cat litter but the only Tesco I have near me is tiny and doesn't stock it. We have a big P@H though.

Did you use anything underneath it like osmocote or peat?

Thanks

 

[markk]

Thanks Mark, which brand is it from pets at home? I've read about using Tesco's cat litter but the only Tesco I have near me is tiny and doesn't stock it. We have a big P@H though.

Did you use anything underneath it like osmocote or peat?

Thanks

I think this is it - but check! You'll need to wash it to get rid of the perfume

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/p...3--1/lightweight-non-clumping-pink-cat-litter

I did use osmocote at startup but to be honest haven't touched it since (about 15 months now) - I'm sure my crypts would appreciate it hough.

Regards, Mark

 

[Darwin88]

Thanks Mark, that's very helpful. It's definitely going on the shortlist. Could save me a fortune!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[EdwinK]

Almost all of the popular crypts can be grown "under the sofa" so I would not worry too much about the PAR and stuff like this. Your plant choice is excellent for low light, slow growing tank and you should not wonder that CO2 doesn't improve a thing because plants are slow and it just not noticeable.
In that kind of setup substrate should be priority number one. With crypts, anubias, microsoriums, bolbitis you could try going with your current light and if things doesn't work - start thinking about the new light then.

 

[Darwin88]

Almost all of the popular crypts can be grown "under the sofa" so I would not worry too much about the PAR and stuff like this. Your plant choice is excellent for low light, slow growing tank and you should not wonder that CO2 doesn't improve a thing because plants are slow and it just not noticeable.
In that kind of setup substrate should be priority number one. With crypts, anubias, microsoriums, bolbitis you could try going with your current light and if things doesn't work - start thinking about the new light then.

Thanks for you input. I would love to think that my current lighting could grow all these plants but I'm sure it won't! The Java ferns have been under that light for months and I haven't seen any new growth at all, not that I can tell at least. Having said that, it's not like they're dying either.

I had planned to do the substrate first and add the lighting second. I wasn't going to plant up until the lighting was set up, do you really think light penetration will be enough in this 500mm high tank?

 

[ian_m]

I'm set on LED though, I've recently been on a mission in the house replacing all of our light fittings with LED units because I just love those energy savings

Of course most fluorescent tubes are higher efficiency. The TMC tiles quote 77lumen/Watt where as T5 HO tubes are 108lumens/Watt, 40% more efficient, but compared to 10lumens/Watt for an old tungsten bulb.

LED's are getting much better "sexy press" at the moment, pushing out the more efficient and less profit making fluorescent tubes of course.

 

[Darwin88]

Of course most fluorescent tubes are higher efficiency. The TMC tiles quote 77lumen/Watt where as T5 HO tubes are 108lumens/Watt, 40% more efficient, but compared to 10lumens/Watt for an old tungsten bulb.

LED's are getting much better "sexy press" at the moment, pushing out the more efficient and less profit making fluorescent tubes of course.

I see your point but there's the tube replacement cost to factor in too. Tubes long enough for this aquarium are going to cost approx £20 each, in a 4 tube luminaire that's £80 per set, replaced once per year I'd be spending £400 over 5 years to light this tank, not including the initial outlay for the luminaire. I'm sure the grobeams have a 5 year warranty on them meaning if I spent £200 on grobeams and controller I'm guaranteed to get at least 5 years out of them. With sufficient cooling the life expectancy is plenty in excess of this. That's what leans me towards LED's over traditional options.

However, if I needed 4 or more grobeams to run this tank properly, I'm looking at a huge start up cost with no real future savings over T5's.

I'm looking for people's thoughts on my chances of success with two grobeams for this low light setup, mostly Cryptocorynes, Anubias and Microsorum.

If the general consensus is no, not likely, then I shall certainly respect your advice and probably go down the tradition T5 route. Thank for your help!

 

[ian_m]

I see your point but there's the tube replacement cost to factor in too.

What tube replacement factor ? Have you been talking to your local fish shop, who handily will sell you replacement tubes at £20 each every year ???

Below is the lumen maintenance curve of a T5 tubes, 12hours on 12hours off. Only at 85% brightness after 40,000hours,4.5 years.

Below tube on right is 30 months old and one on left is 6 months old...and the difference is...

Anyway if you insist you must change your tubes every year, these are equally as good at £2.89 each when not bought from a fish shop. Provide light for plants job done.
http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bulbs-Tubes/860-and-865-Daylight_14/T5-54-Watt-865-Osram

Obviously LED's will outlast T5 tubes, maybe 50,000 to 80,000 hours to 80% brightness, but I bet the electronics won't.

 

[EdwinK]

The Java ferns have been under that light for months and I haven't seen any new growth at all

In that case light is not a problem. You need to "fix" your water.

do you really think light penetration will be enough in this 500 mm high tank

For plants you have chosen - yes, for other plants - no.

And ian_m is absolutely right about T5 replacements. I have some Giesemann's about 10 years old and plants can't tell the difference.

 

[Darwin88]

What tube replacement factor ? Have you been talking to your local fish shop, who handily will sell you replacement tubes at £20 each every year ???

Below is the lumen maintenance curve of a T5 tubes, 12hours on 12hours off. Only at 85% brightness after 40,000hours,4.5 years.

Below tube on right is 30 months old and one on left is 6 months old...and the difference is...

Anyway if you insist you must change your tubes every year, these are equally as good at £2.89 each when not bought from a fish shop. Provide light for plants job done.
http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bulbs-Tubes/860-and-865-Daylight_14/T5-54-Watt-865-Osram

Obviously LED's will outlast T5 tubes, maybe 50,000 to 80,000 hours to 80% brightness, but I bet the electronics won't.

Hehe you're quite the LED sceptic aren't you?! Not a problem, I don't like to be ripped off, if I can avoid being a captive audience and find a cheaper solution to a problem made by hobby marketers, then I will.

I've always read on forums that it's good practice to replace the tubes every 12 months, on non-planted tanks I've had tubes last several years but they were non-planted so I can't vouch for their diminishing output if any at all. We learn from others so this is all good advice!

As for regular domestic tubes being good enough for plants? Is that true? If it is, then this is a revelation! I used to loath spending £20 on light tubes and that's another thing that put me of fluorescents.

I'm swaying on the fence now. One thing though, looking at the iquatics luminaire you linked me to, which I now realise comes with tubes which is handy, wouldn't that be far too much light for this kind of setup and would it be asking for algae? Or would it just be a case of ramping up co2 and ferts?

 

[EdwinK]

I think with that kit you should be able to run just two lamps at the time.

 

[Darwin88]

I think with that kit you should be able to run just two lamps at the time.

It actually comes as a two tube variant:

https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/aq...g/iquatics-aqualumi-universal-twin-150cm.html

 

[EdwinK]

Or as 4 as is in ian_m's link. I think it is more versatile option.