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mrtank50

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6 Jan 2021
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50
Location
Türkiye
Hello everyone...

I want your help and advice.

I don't know if I'm doing it right in all-in-one fertilizer production.

I will be glad if you tell me the mistakes I made.

First, I add them to the solution in order.

1-Fe 7% DTPA--I use 5 ml of hydrochloric acid in 100 ml of distilled water and lower the pH to 0.6-- Then I add 0.32 grams of 7% iron dtpa. Then I add 100 ml of this to the main solution.
2-Fe Gluconate 11% (E579)--I use 5 ml of hydrochloric acid in 100 ml of distilled water and lower the pH to 0.6-- Then I add 0.27 grams of 11% iron glukonat. Then I add 100 ml of this to the main solution.
3-Fe EDTA 6% (E579)--I use 5 ml of hydrochloric acid in 100 ml of distilled water and lower the pH to 0.6-- Then I add 0.24 grams of 6% iron EDTA. Then I add 100 ml of this to the main solution.
4-MnSO₄·H₂O --5 grams edta--3 grams of ascorbic acid--5 ml of hydrochloric acid is used in 500 ml of distilled water and reduces the pH to 0.8. Then I add 0.31 grams of manganese sulfate. Then I add 100 ml of this to the main solution.
5-(ZnSO₄.7H₂O) --5 grams of edta--3 grams of ascorbic acid--5 ml of hydrochloric acid is used in 500 ml of distilled water and it reduces the pH to 0.8. Then I add 0.45 grams of zinc sulfate. Then I add 5 ml of this to the main solution.
6-Boric Acid (H₃BO₃)-5 grams of edta--3 grams of ascorbic acid--5 ml of hydrochloric acid is used in 500 ml of distilled water and lowers the pH to 0.8. Then I add 1.18 grams of borik asit. Then I add 5 ml of this to the main solution.
7-Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate (CuSO₄.5H₂O)-5 grams of edta--3 grams of ascorbic acid--5 ml of hydrochloric acid is used in 500 ml of distilled water and lowers the pH to 0.8. Then I add 1.21 grams of copper sulfate. Then I add 5 ml of this to the main solution.
8-Sodium Molybdate Dihydrate (Na₂MoO₄.2H₂O)-5 grams of edta--3 grams of ascorbic acid--5 ml of hydrochloric acid is used in 500 ml of distilled water and reduces the pH to 0.8. Then I add 0.259 grams of sodium molybdete. Then I add 5 ml of this to the main solution.

After adding the micro element additives, my pH remains 0.7.
Then I added 15 ml of hydrochloric acid and lowered the pH to 0.2.


Next steps...
1-I add 6 grams of ammonium nitrate to my solution.
2-After the ammonium nitrate melts, I add 19 grams of potassium sulfate.
3-After the potassium sulfate melts, I add 9 grams of magnesium sulfate.
4- After the magnesium sulfate melts, I add 1.3 grams of Monopotassium Phosphate.

Is my way of doing it right, do you think I'm lowering the phs too much?

After all the elements have melted, the solution pH is in the range of 0.35-0.40.


These are the available salts I have:

1-manganese sulfate
2-zinc sulfate
3-boric acid
4-copper sulfate
5-sodium molybdete
6-EDTA
7-Ascorbic acid
8-salicylic acid
9-potassium sulfate
10-potassium nitrate
11-potassium chloride
12-potassium oxide
13-ammonium nitrate
14-ammonium sulfate
15-urea
16-mono potassium phosphate
17-fe edta 6% ---fe eddha 6% ---fe dtpa 7%--fe gluconate 11%
18-potassium sorbate
19-magnesium chloride
20-magnesium nitrate
 

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Oldguy

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27 Aug 2018
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459
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Gloucestershire, UK
I want your help and advice.
Surprised that your pH is so low.
Admire your 'from scratch' all in one solution. ( a small language point your chemicals dissolve and not melt, perhaps lost in translation)
Why make life so difficult. Most go for two stock solutions.
One for maros Potassium nitrate and Potassium hydrogen phosphate. May be Magnesium sulphate depending on your water supply.
The other for Iron and trace elements. These can often be obtained ready made and quite cheaply as they are sold for horticultural and hydroponics use. Solufeed do a range of such products.
I am going to leave your calculations to others on the forum.

Best wishes with your endeavours.
 

mrtank50

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Joined
6 Jan 2021
Messages
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Location
Türkiye
Thanks for your valuable reply. I have 9 tanks. This makes me very tired in fertilization. That's why I want to make fertilizer all in one.Surprised that your pH is so low.
Admire your 'from scratch' all in one solution. ( a small language point your chemicals dissolve and not melt, perhaps lost in translation)
Why make life so difficult. Most go for two stock solutions.
One for maros Potassium nitrate and Potassium hydrogen phosphate. May be Magnesium sulphate depending on your water supply.
The other for Iron and trace elements. These can often be obtained ready made and quite cheaply as they are sold for horticultural and hydroponics use. Solufeed do a range of such products.
I am going to leave your calculations to others on the forum.

Best wishes with your endeavours.
 

Flukeworld

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6 Feb 2021
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Bulgaria
I have been wondering for long time what is the key to keep Macro and Micro from reacting with each other when creating all in one solutions?
 

Oldguy

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27 Aug 2018
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459
Location
Gloucestershire, UK
I have been wondering for long time what is the key to keep Macro and Micro from reacting with each other when creating all in one solutions?
My guess is that it is the concentration of phosphate in the macro mix that reacts with iron and other metal salts/chelates in the micro mix. Also if magnesium sulphate is in the macro mix then the Mg ions will start to displace Fe and other transition metals from their chelates. These solutions are fairly concentrated so that only a small volume is added to our tanks but the concentration results in chemical interaction occurring. (If very dilute they have to find each other first before interaction can occur.)
Under EI dosing macros & micros are added on alternative days to reduce co-precipitation and other such interactions. Also once added to the tank the solutions become very dilute.

For instance on water change day my new water is approx 50:50 rainwater to tap water. I add a little sodium thioslphate to remove chlorine and magnesium sulphate as a macro fertilizer.
When the tank is full I then add macro ferts as a solution. The following day I add micros and then its EI alternative days.
While I inject CO2 my lighting is not 'Arc Light' strength and I feel this gives me some leeway in tank management. Though retired I have many interests and at times tank management slips.

I make my own macro ferts from 'dry salts' and micros from Solufeed products. Digital balances are now very cheap and most chemicals can be sourced from the internet, especially eBay.

I hope that this is of some help.
 

mrtank50

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Thread starter
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Location
Türkiye
My guess is that it is the concentration of phosphate in the macro mix that reacts with iron and other metal salts/chelates in the micro mix. Also if magnesium sulphate is in the macro mix then the Mg ions will start to displace Fe and other transition metals from their chelates. These solutions are fairly concentrated so that only a small volume is added to our tanks but the concentration results in chemical interaction occurring. (If very dilute they have to find each other first before interaction can occur.)
Under EI dosing macros & micros are added on alternative days to reduce co-precipitation and other such interactions. Also once added to the tank the solutions become very dilute.

For instance on water change day my new water is approx 50:50 rainwater to tap water. I add a little sodium thioslphate to remove chlorine and magnesium sulphate as a macro fertilizer.
When the tank is full I then add macro ferts as a solution. The following day I add micros and then its EI alternative days.
While I inject CO2 my lighting is not 'Arc Light' strength and I feel this gives me some leeway in tank management. Though retired I have many interests and at times tank management slips.

I make my own macro ferts from 'dry salts' and micros from Solufeed products. Digital balances are now very cheap and most chemicals can be sourced from the internet, especially eBay.

I hope that this is of some help.
Dear oldgay. Thank you very much for your valuable reply. I learned a lot of information from you. I'll be more careful with magnesium sulfate.
 

Flukeworld

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6 Feb 2021
Messages
57
Location
Bulgaria
My guess is that it is the concentration of phosphate in the macro mix that reacts with iron and other metal salts/chelates in the micro mix. Also if magnesium sulphate is in the macro mix then the Mg ions will start to displace Fe and other transition metals from their chelates. These solutions are fairly concentrated so that only a small volume is added to our tanks but the concentration results in chemical interaction occurring. (If very dilute they have to find each other first before interaction can occur.)
Under EI dosing macros & micros are added on alternative days to reduce co-precipitation and other such interactions. Also once added to the tank the solutions become very dilute.

For instance on water change day my new water is approx 50:50 rainwater to tap water. I add a little sodium thioslphate to remove chlorine and magnesium sulphate as a macro fertilizer.
When the tank is full I then add macro ferts as a solution. The following day I add micros and then its EI alternative days.
While I inject CO2 my lighting is not 'Arc Light' strength and I feel this gives me some leeway in tank management. Though retired I have many interests and at times tank management slips.

I make my own macro ferts from 'dry salts' and micros from Solufeed products. Digital balances are now very cheap and most chemicals can be sourced from the internet, especially eBay.

I hope that this is of some help.
Thanks for the answer. I am doing completely the same with my own ferts from salts and keeping those separate as Macro and Micro mix. I was just wondering looking at commercial products sold as all-in-one solutions, which would save me 1 dosing per day if possible to mix macro and micro in one bottle.
 

Happi

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478
Location
UTAH, USA
there is nothing wrong with making all in One solution when its chelated, especially when the Iron is fully Chelated. i would recommend working with DTPA Fe for all in one solution as i find it to be much more stable, even though EDTA will work as well but its far less stable compared to the DTPA. the most common issue with all in one solution is that Iron and Phosphate being together in the same solution, but this is resolved when you use Chelated Iron such as Fe DTPA. keeping the PH of the solution between 5-6 also helps to stabilize the solution.
 

_Maq_

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I suggest you better quit hocus-pocusing. For safety reasons.
 

Oldguy

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27 Aug 2018
Messages
459
Location
Gloucestershire, UK
I prefer a two bottle approach, one for macros which I make up with tap water and one for micros which I make up with rainwater. The estimated Index is first and for most estimated. Dosing from differing bottles gives dosing flexibility and stability to the solutions,

Very suspicious of any bottle of 'solution' where you have to shake the bottle and bits come out.

In addition the quantities of dry salts are very different. For macros some use a spoon for measurements ( I prefer to weigh which for a 5 litre batch I could use the kitchen scales, I only make a 2litre batch so I use a lab balance. For micros I definitely use a lab balance and make up a 5litre batch which is then diluted 10:1 for use in the tank. Never had any precipitates on storage. Also difficult to over dose with copper, all chelated except molybdenum if I remember correctly.

Each to their own, its the journey and not the destination and as such there are many paths.
 

_Maq_

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there is nothing wrong with making all in One solution when its chelated, especially when the Iron is fully Chelated.
I suspect you're wrong, very wrong.
Complex salts (=chelates) are not entirely stable. If they were, they'd never release a metal's cation for plants' uptake. Complexes work like a kind of jail which imprison metal ions for a while. While in, metal ions do not react with anything, therefore are not toxic, and cannot be taken up by plants. However, metal ions get released and recaptured repeatedly. (One source says "thousands of times per second". I don't know if it's really that fast.)
The problem with the chelating agents (chelators) is that they are not one-ion specific. There is a known scale of metal ions for which a given chelator has an affinity from highest to lowest. This affinity is then modified by some external factors, most notably pH and concentration of given metal ion in the solution.
So - the point is coming! - EDTA has normally higher affinity for Fe(III) and Fe(II) ions than for Mg(II) ion, but if the concentration of the latter is remarkably higher, EDTA is likely to bind Mg instead of Fe ion. Needless to say, any all-in-one blend contains more macronutrients than micronutrients. So it's likely that EDTA would get largely busy binding Mg and Ca ions and micros will be present as free ions, i.e. unchelated.

Disclaimer: These are mere examples. I did not attempt to quantify the probability of whichever bond would occur. Also, the affinity rankings of various chelating agents are different, as well as their stability upon various pH values. In the case of the proposed all-in-one blend, given the number of substances and widely different concentrations, the only reasonable conclusion I'm capable of is that there's not a slightest guarantee that such a mess would work as intended.

My personal suggestion: The only element which is better dosed chelated is iron. Dose chelated iron separately from anything else. Other micros can be dosed unchelated in most cases (i.e. unless your pH is higher than, say, 7.5, and bicarbonate content over 2 °dKH). It is generally better dosing micros separately and on days when you're not dosing anything else.
 
Last edited:

Happi

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15 Jan 2012
Messages
478
Location
UTAH, USA
I suspect you're wrong, very wrong.
Complex salts (=chelates) are not entirely stable. If they were, they'd never release a metal's cation for plants' uptake. Complexes work like a kind of jail which imprison metal ions for a while. While in, metal ions do not react with anything, therefore are not toxic, and cannot be taken up by plants. However, metal ions get released and recaptured repeatedly. (One source says "thousands of times per second".)
The problem with the chelating agents (chelators) is that they are not one-ion specific. There is a known scale of metal ions for which a given chelator has an affinity from highest to lowest. This affinity is then modified by some external factors, most notably pH and concentration of given metal ion in the solution.
So - the point is coming! - EDTA has normally higher affinity for Fe(III) and Fe(II) ions than for Mg(II) ion, but if the concentration of the latter is remarkably higher, EDTA is likely to bind Mg instead of Fe ion. Needless to say, any all-in-one blend contains more macronutrients than micronutrients. So it's likely that EDTA would get largely busy binding Mg and Ca ions and micros will be present as free ions, i.e. unchelated.

Disclaimer: These are mere examples. I did not attempt to quantify the probability of whichever bond would occur. Also, the affinity rankings of various chelating agents are different, as well as their stability upon various pH values. In the case of the proposed all-in-one blend, given the number of substances and widely different concentrations, the only reasonable conclusion I'm capable of is that there's not a slightest warranty that such a mess would work as intended.

My personal suggestion: The only element which is better dosed chelated is iron. Dose chelated iron separately from anything else. Other micros can be dosed unchelated in most cases (i.e. unless your pH is higher than, say, 7.5, and bicarbonate content over 2 °dKH). It is generally better dosing micros separately and on days when you're not dosing anything else.
I agree with what you are saying. but, i was mainly referring to Phosphate and Iron being together in the same solution. and Yes DTPA Fe and PO4 can be added together in the same solution without any precipitation, this is usually the main concern when someone is attempting to make an All in One solution.

like i said i do agree with everything else you have said. Chelate will try to chelate whatever it could chelate including forming EDTA Mg or EDTA Ca if Mg or Ca were present in the solution, Solution become more prone to Precipitations at that point especially if you were to add PO4 along with Ca in the same solution. the PH also plays an important role for Precipitations

@mrtank50 should already see some issues with Precipitations just because of very low PH which can make several Chelate Unstable
 

_Maq_

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Yes DTPA Fe and PO4 can be added together in the same solution without any precipitation
Is it sure? You know, not all precipitates settle on the bottom. Very tiny particles may be created which virtually don't settle because of Brown's movement.
 

Happi

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Very tiny particles may be created which virtually don't settle because of Brown's movement.
how can we identify these Particles in the solution? which method can be used to identify them so we can be sure and probably never make All in one solution again. But how does Tropica make All in one solution that Include P, Fe and Mg together? their solution is chelated by DTPA and HEEDTA

just to clarify, when we are talking about "all in one" solution, we usually exclude Ca out of these, adding Ca to the solution and keeping the solution stable would be a hard task, i only achieved this while using DTPA and EDDHA but PO4 was excluded from that solution.

Tenso Cocktail for example add EDTA Ca in their Micros, if someone try to make all in one solution using Tenso Cocktail, they will certainly have some problems, especially anything that adds P or S in the same solution.

However, i do agree that it is best to dose Fe separately, Micros Separately, Macros Separately for the best outcome and this insure more stability vs dosing all in one solutions.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
Complex salts (=chelates) are not entirely stable. If they were, they'd never release a metal's cation for plants' uptake. Complexes work like a kind of jail which imprison metal ions for a while. While in, metal ions do not react with anything, therefore are not toxic, and cannot be taken up by plants. However, metal ions get released and recaptured repeatedly. (One source says "thousands of times per second". I don't know if it's really that fast.)
I think that because the FeEDTA is photodegraded (degraded by light energy) if you keep the chelate in the dark the iron (Fe) ions will remain bound to the EDTA?
<EDTA - MOTM> says:
....The fully deprotonated form (all acidic hydrogens removed) of EDTA binds to the metal ion. The equilibrium or formation constants for most metals, especially the transition metals, are very large, hence the reactions are shifted to the complex. Many of the reactions are pH dependent, especially the weaker forming complexes with Ca+2 or Mg+2........

cheers Darrel
 
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What scale do you use? I’ve been researching making my own micro mix, perhaps even an all in one, but most likely just keeping them separate.

Anyhow, I’m seeing that most inexpensive scales that measure down to .001 grams end up often off up to 5 grams. Mixing in a 500ml or even 1000ml dosing containers that we normally use, being 5 grams off isn’t ok for micros. The very least of the concerns being having your ratios off.
 
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Another issue, and one that made me start down the journey of learning about making my own micro mix is the very fact that the inexpensive commercial micro mixes are dry ferts meant for agriculture, etc…, as has been mentioned. In the states we have CSM +B as a common one. There’s one other common one and I know of no others of this type.

Now when trying to dose a half teaspoon out of that mix, what do you think the chances are of you getting an even mix of the elements contained in the mix? Zero. You have no idea what you’re dosing.

That leads me to to buying a liquid micro mix for aquariums (expensive), and often not the dosages I want, or making my own.

There are long threads on this on two other forums that are very interesting.

I really need to just be able to measure such tiny amounts accurately and I’d be set.

As far as making it an all-in-one? I honestly don’t know enough to say, although lots of smart people in other threads didn’t seem to see issues with the approaches they came up with. That doesn’t mean they aren’t wrong though. However, how do the big manufacturers accomplish this? Are there mixes problematic? Tropica just adds EDDHA I believe.

DIY’ers seem to just add a couple stabilizers, something to get the ph where they need it and then a chelate or chelates. I see here it’s perhaps not that simple….but in order to keep it so, I’ll just keep macros separate for now.
 

Hufsa

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I really need to just be able to measure such tiny amounts accurately and I’d be set.
Serial dilution will be your friend in this :thumbup:
The IFC allows experienced aquarists to make their own custom micros including diluted trace solutions, and does a lot of the calculating for you.
I highly recommend it and dont think I would have been able to make my own custom micros without it, at least not without some major headache.
 
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Serial dilution will be your friend in this :thumbup:
The IFC allows experienced aquarists to make their own custom micros including diluted trace solutions, and does a lot of the calculating for you.
I highly recommend it and dont think I would have been able to make my own custom micros without it, at least not without some major headache.
Thanks. I’ll have a read through. I figured I would have to do some sort of dilution strategy to pull it off with any accuracy, as I’m not wanting to spend a fortune on a scale, and even when you do, the environment needs to be perfect for it as well. I mean you need a wind shield and to warm up the scale, for crying out loud. That’s a little much for me. So if I can do it another way with a decent electronic scale in my price range I’m game! Tropica ferts are really expensive and seem even more so here lately. I think they are scaling back in the States market or having supply chain issues. If it was more reasonable I’d just buy it, but it’s not and I’m considering one high-tech tank along with the low-tech and ferts add up.

I may need help to figure out my dilution strategy though.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
What scale do you use? I’ve been researching making my own micro mix, perhaps even an all in one, but most likely just keeping them separate.
So if I can do it another way with a decent electronic scale in my price range I’m game!
I don't ever use the lab. balances (or micro-pipettes) for small weights and volumes, there is much too much margin for error.

I always work with bigger weights and volumes to make up a stock solution and then use serial dilution to dilute the solutions to their end mg / L (ppm) values.

It is honestly a lot more accurate, and does away with the need for 4 place balances etc.

cheers Darrel
 
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