Bacteria in a bottle ?

zozo

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Yes, who knows what will crawl out of this earth or maybe already has during our global warming hype.

Meanwhile in Russia...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batagaika_crater
I think to remember it was artificially created and the thawing process can not be stopped.

Mammoth ivory miners are helping a hand too...


 

sparkyweasel

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there are several shops etc that will recommend it be used in new aquariums with first livestock additions 4-5 weeks later ... again, anecdotally that seems to work alright too
That would work, because adding the first stock after 4 or 5 weeks would work without using the product. :)
 

sparkyweasel

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If you want to “jumpstart” a “cycle” in your aquarium, add some plants/hardscape/gravel/media etc from a running aquarium
In ancient times, shops kept their plants in the same display tanks as their fish, so that took care of introducing some micro-organisms to your tank.
 

Driftless

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I have used products like ADA Bacter 100 and other bacteria products. Remember plants are move efficient in removing ammonia than is bacteria, once your plants are growing you are good to go.
 

ss_cov

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Thanks all for the interesting reads. It's really fascinating to think about the lives of those that we can't see...

Regarding being dormant , i heard a very interesting story that the same thing applies to human life as well. Everything goes through a cycle and there will come a time that the world goes through its phases (it burns) and life on earth is no longer there like it's there today. Although it's not really there physically, it becomes dormant and the life would be just floating in the air. And when the conditions become right, life will start again.
 

Luketendo

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I had a 1 week cycle earlier this year with Amazonia Powder, Amazonia II and Power Sand Advance, along with a bunch of plants. The Power Sand Advance contains Bacter 100 which I guess one of ADA's equivalents of this kind of product (they also have green bacter). I can't tell you whether the Bacter 100 specifically helped but certainly the ammonia coming from the Amazonia and the plants as a buffer would have.
 

Surya

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I have used Tetra SafeStart on two separate occasions, well in-date bottle, shaken well, followed the stocking instructions to the letter and tested the water for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates daily.

It worked. Ammonia 0 throughout except 0.25 on day 3; Nitrites 0 throughout; Nitrates 10 by day 14. I then went onto weekly water changes and tested prior to each on - ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 20 each time.

Make of that what you will. Both tanks were non-CO2 and very lightly planted with epiphytes at the time.

Now I have plenty of cycled media so hopefully will never need to cycle a tank again...
 

jaypeecee

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Hi @Tim Harrison
There is enough bacteria in the environment and on plant roots and leaves etc to inoculate any aquarium, and cycle it pretty quickly. Mine are usually safe for critters in a week or so.

In that case, I suspect your plants are already well established. I would have thought that plants grown in vitro, for example, would be devoid of nitrifying bacteria - is that not the case? If you are managing to get a tank ready for critters in a week, would that include fish, for example? And, what happens if the plants don't get going? Saving less than a tenner on a bottle of bacteria hardly seems worthwhile.

JPC
 

Tim Harrison

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Bacteria will obviously be present on plants not grown in vitro. They don't necessarily have to be well established. Further, bacteria can be latent in vitro cultures and many are considered to be endosymbionts and some perhaps beneficial. But aside from that bacteria coat every surface on this planet including your skin, and reproduce by binary fission. This response is very rapid, most bacteria have generation times of one to three hours. Some species can double every 20 minutes, given optimal conditions. If that growth rate were sustained, a single cell would give rise to a colony weighing a million kilograms in just 24 hours. However, growth is checked by nutrient availability or accumulation of metabolic wastes etc.

Given those growth rates, even if the supplements contained the right bacteria, they wouldn't really be needed. I've never used them and my tank usually cycles in about a week. meaning it's habitable for fish and other critters Save your tenner John ;)
 

jaypeecee

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Hi @Tim Harrison
Bacteria will obviously be present on plants not grown in vitro. They don't necessarily have to be well established. Further, bacteria can be latent in vitro cultures and many are considered to be endosymbionts and some perhaps beneficial. But aside from that bacteria coat every surface on this planet including your skin, and reproduce by binary fission. This response is very rapid, most bacteria have generation times of one to three hours. Some species can double every 20 minutes, given optimal conditions. If that growth rate were sustained, a single cell would give rise to a colony weighing a million kilograms in just 24 hours. However, growth is checked by nutrient availability or accumulation of metabolic wastes etc.

Given those growth rates, even if the supplements contained the right bacteria, they wouldn't really be needed. I've never used them and my tank usually cycles in about a week. meaning it's habitable for fish and other critters Save your tenner John

Thanks for the feedback.

No-one doubts that bacteria are all around us, on us and inside us. But, not all bacteria will break down ammonia into nitrite and then, nitrite into nitrate. This job is achieved by nitrifying bacteria and other species such as Archaea. Bottled bacteria for aquarium use contain species of nitrifying bacteria. As you are obviously having success without these products, it doesn't follow that others would have the same success. Your plants are obviously carrying nitrifying bacteria. And not just your plants - there will be other aquarists whose plants are bathed in the right species of bacteria and Archaea. I know plenty of people for whom it's not uncommon to wait for up to six weeks for a tank to cycle when bacterial supplements are not used. Of course, if nitrifying bacteria can be transferred from the filter of an established tank, this is another option.

JPC :)
 

Tim Harrison

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Hi @Tim Harrison


Thanks for the feedback.

No-one doubts that bacteria are all around us, on us and inside us. But, not all bacteria will break down ammonia into nitrite and then, nitrite into nitrate. This job is achieved by nitrifying bacteria and other species such as Archaea. Bottled bacteria for aquarium use contain species of nitrifying bacteria. As you are obviously having success without these products, it doesn't follow that others would have the same success. Your plants are obviously carrying nitrifying bacteria. And not just your plants - there will be other aquarists whose plants are bathed in the right species of bacteria and Archaea. I know plenty of people for whom it's not uncommon to wait for up to six weeks for a tank to cycle when bacterial supplements are not used. Of course, if nitrifying bacteria can be transferred from the filter of an established tank, this is another option.

JPC :)

I think the bacteria you're talking about are very common and will more likely than not find their way in to our tanks without being introduced.
 

jaypeecee

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Hi @Tim Harrison
I think the bacteria you're talking about are very common and will more likely than not find their way in to our tanks without being introduced.
I seem to recall that some species and strains of nitrifying bacteria have been found in tapwater in some countries. But, I prefer not to leave things to chance. I used to be a moderator on A N Other forum. Frustration with getting tanks to cycle was all too common and possibly the reason why a lot of people registered on that forum.

JPC
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
......... I used to be a moderator on A N Other forum. Frustration with getting tanks to cycle was all too common and possibly the reason why a lot of people registered on that forum.
I still dip in and out of <"some other forums">, where "cycling", or more often the lack of it and dead fish aftermath, are discussed. I've learned that, in certain circumstances, there really isn't any point in even starting the <"plants and time are the answer"> conversation.
Bottled bacteria for aquarium use contain species of nitrifying bacteria. As you are obviously having success without these products, it doesn't follow that others would have the same success.
It is back to <"Donald Rumsfeld territory">, too many unknown unknowns.

I would regard the efficacy of bacterial supplements as "unknown", but I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do any harm, as long as you don't add ammonia (NH3) at the same time, and then any issues would be with the ammonia.

You would really need to know the ammonia loading that the supplements were produced under and I'm not sure that any company will tell you*, I'm going to work under the assumption that they are produced commercially in Bioreactors under high ammonia loading, which is likely to greatly reduce their suitability for planted aquariums. The reason why the production method would matter is that recent scientific research has shown that the <"COMAMMOX Nitrospira and Ammonia Oxidising Archaea (AOA)">, that are actually found in aquarium filters, are <"oligotrophic">.

*I'll try contacting <"Dr Tim Hovanec">, as my guess is that he is the most likely person to reply to us, but I would still assume it is a long shot.

cheers Darrel
 

zozo

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Some species can double every 20 minutes, given optimal conditions.

I suspect they are much faster than that. A lot of us experienced cloudy/milky tank water one time or another, caused by Bacterial Bloom... As far as I could find this seems to be caused by a nitrifying bacteria sp. multiplying like made after a water change or substrate disturbing causing a mini ammonia spike or something else delicious for a bacterial bloom feasting on it.

Then do a 70% water change all seems to be clear and within minutes you see it getting equally cloudy again as before. Even a second water change doesn't seem to break the cycle, at least I once tried I experienced it was darn cloudy again within less than 15 minutes. And this cloudiness goes on for a couple of hours and clears up by itself.

They multiply unbelievably fast, I don't know any numbers but making 70% of clear water volume cloudy again, that also means you took out 70% of the present population, within minutes... That's a lot more than double i guess... :crazy: :shh:
Looks more like every 5 minutes if given the correct conditions. 💪
 

Nick potts

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I suspect they are much faster than that. A lot of us experienced cloudy/milky tank water one time or another, caused by Bacterial Bloom... As far as I could find this seems to be caused by a nitrifying bacteria sp. multiplying like made after a water change or substrate disturbing causing a mini ammonia spike or something else delicious for a bacterial bloom feasting on it.

Then do a 70% water change all seems to be clear and within minutes you see it getting equally cloudy again as before. Even a second water change doesn't seem to break the cycle, at least I once tried I experienced it was darn cloudy again within less than 15 minutes. And this cloudiness goes on for a couple of hours and clears up by itself.

They multiply unbelievably fast, I don't know any numbers but making 70% of clear water volume cloudy again, that also means you took out 70% of the present population, within minutes... That's a lot more than double i guess... :crazy: :shh:
Looks more like every 5 minutes if given the correct conditions. 💪

Even the fastest bacteria have a generation time (doubling time) in the 10's of minutes. Whereas many of the bacteria responsible for aquarium filtration etc has a generation time in the hours (up to 14 hours)

I don't know what other factors cause the cloudiness but I don't believe it can purely be the bacterial mass.
 

zozo

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I don't know what other factors cause the cloudiness but I don't believe it can purely be the bacterial mass.

I guess you are correct... :) I've been looking for some scientific data on this, didn't find any... But the best explanation i came across is this. Or I must say best believable...

The term “bacterial bloom” is a bit of a misnomer. The actual organisms are a complex montage called infusoria. “Infusoria” is a collective term for minute aquatic creatures such as ciliates, euglenoids, protozoa, paramecium, unicellular algae and bacteria that exist in all aquariums and freshwater ponds. Most infusoria feed on bacteria.

Whatever the collective contains it's in the millions and it's able to reproduce astonishingly fast... :)
 
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jaypeecee

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Hi @dw1305
I'll try contacting <"Dr Tim Hovanec">, as my guess is that he is the most likely person to reply to us, but I would still assume it is a long shot.

I have had an email discussion - once - with Dr Tim. The last time I tried to contact him, I got no reply.
I would regard the efficacy of bacterial supplements as "unknown", but I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do any harm, as long as you don't add ammonia (NH3) at the same time, and then any issues would be with the ammonia.

I have successfully used ammonia many times. Specifically, I use ammonium chloride with a starting concentration of 2 to 3 ppm total ammonia (NH3 + NH4). It is not a good idea to use more than 4 ppm total ammonia. Excess ammonia can kill some species of nitrite-oxidizing bacteria. But, Nitrospira have been shown to oxidize ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate. They are therefore now classed as Commamox bacteria - complete ammonia oxidizers. For more information:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16461

JPC
 
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