Calzone's new 120x60x45 optiwhite tank build

[Antipofish]

I know this is true, because if you feed a filter with 12mm hose and output with 16mm hose, you must surely have less flow than if both hoses were 16mm. Ultimately this is because the circulation around the "closed" loop is all drive by the pump, without it there would be no flow. Now, I would suggest that if you were feeding the water in through the media from a different tank say by gravity, things might be different. And actually pumps are crap at sucking and good at pushing, so I can even imagine that friction through the media has more impact than friction in the outlet (depending on pump design).
One wonders therefore why eheim suggest you fill the filter rammed full of media as this will reduce flow a lot and isn't necessary (apart from the obvious reason that they sell more media that way).
We should do an experiment on this and sticky it. Debunk the myths.

The thing is, nowadays most Eheims come with media. And the joke of selling loose media is, I know of a retailer who stocks Eheim filters cos he reckons they are the bees knees, but WONT stock their loose media, in preference to Sera.

Im now thinking along the lines of (in my 2075 or 2078 if i get it) a layer of Eheim Mech Pro (or anything similar), a layer of foam for anything the Mech pro has missedm and two layers of Sera Siporax. And now Im thinking of the siporax not necessarily for its "claimed" biological benefit (although I still subscribe to that but for slightly different reasons) but because it is relatively open and will not affect flow as much as Eheim Substrat Pro for example.

 

[OllieNZ]

We should do an experiment on this and sticky it. Debunk the myths.

Ill try do this at some point over the next few weeks while Im doing a dry start on my tank. The only issue I have is I dont have any high impedance media as Im in the bioballs/couple of foam pads camp and dont really want to go the expense of buying it. Could I use similarly sized gravel as an analouge to give the necessary restriction?

 

[Antipofish]

We should do an experiment on this and sticky it. Debunk the myths.

Ill try do this at some point over the next few weeks while Im doing a dry start on my tank. The only issue I have is I dont have any high impedance media as Im in the bioballs/couple of foam pads camp and dont really want to go the expense of buying it. Could I use similarly sized gravel as an analouge to give the necessary restriction?

Probably not. You would need to match the spacing, exact size, and weight of he media for the results to be valid. Good on you for offering though.

 

[hinch]

if you don't mind waiting a month or so I could probably do it as I have a few spare canisters lying around and enough different media / foam pads to experiment think i've got an fx5, aqua one 1200 and an aps 1000ef handy to test. + enough different media to experiment with. I've previously done this as a mini experiment on the aps pump which is how I came about the setup of ripping all but one foam pad out and having all noodles and bioballs in the trays

One wonders therefore why eheim suggest you fill the filter rammed full of media as this will reduce flow a lot and isn't necessary (apart from the obvious reason that they sell more media that way).
We should do an experiment on this and sticky it. Debunk the myths.

same reason they recommend new media every 12 months so they can sell more of it! ever wondered why they don't stock their "fancy" media by default in the filters? or why they charge £10 for one foam pad when you can buy 30m of identical foam for "ponds" for £10 on ebay and just cut it to the size you want?

 

[Calzone]

The answer is obvious. Hence why we should address the issue. Of course it's time consuming etc, so not easy to do, but might ultimately help us reduce the cost of this hobby. Though I do agree manufacturers need a margin, which is why I don't mind paying up a bit for good products from Lfs, cos they are very convenient and need to survive...

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

More specifically, would the filter actually be more effective holistically within the greater tank objectives (ie plants, fish health and water clarity) if I put in half the media rather than full, given there's more than enough surface area in there?

I think the answer to this is quite often yes, the amount of media required is defined by the amount of oxygen available, but unfortunately we can't measure this easily, so we need to use indirect evidence.

Because I came back to fish-keeping after a long time away it allowed me to look at filters, lighting etc without any pre-conceptions.

Pretty soon after returning I met a couple of Bristol based L number breeders (this is Bob, fish keeper extraordinaire in his fish house <http://www.altereco.co.uk/portfolio/solar-powered-fish-tanks-bristol/>).

The Bristol breeders had got around the high oxygen requirements of their fish by trial and error, and were mainly using massive over-filtering with multiple filters on their unplanted tanks and large volume water changes. However other people had gone down the same "huge filter" route, but were still struggling to keep their fish alive, let alone breeding. When I had a good look at a filter, I noticed they were using fairly coarse alfagrog as their filter medium.

I was also looking at "Apistogramma forums" where people were using an entirely different approach, sometimes planted, sometimes not, but nearly always using air powered foam filters and very regular water changes. Whilst Apistogramma don't have the oxygen requirements of a Pseudolithoxus etc, they are also pretty unforgiving of any loss of water quality.

This led me to the conclusion that the thread linking all the successful keepers was water quality, and what they were able to do (although they often didn't know it) was to maintain a combination of high oxygenation and water with a low biochemical oxygen demand (BOD).

So the real answer is that it doesn't matter how you get there, but you need to ensure that O2 levels always comfortably exceed the BOD.

Because sudden "unexplained" L number death remained a real problem for many keepers, I wrote:
"Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium" - <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>

Which is really just a "cut and paste" job combining their fish keeping findings with the bits I had gleaned from the waste water work.

cheers Darrel

 

[Antipofish]

But my (very basic and possibly incorrect) understanding of the 'planted' aquarium hobby, is that too much Oxygen is BAD ? As it prevents high CO2 concentrations ? Is that right or am I barking up the wrong tree (or just plain barking, lol)

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

But my (very basic and possibly incorrect) understanding of the 'planted' aquarium hobby, is that too much Oxygen is BAD ? As it prevents high CO2 concentrations ?

No, I think they are largely independent of one another in the tank water, what makes a difference is the diffusion gradient across the fishes gills, because haemoglobin has an affinity for both CO2 and O2 (the Bohr effect). The argument If you have high O2 you can run the CO2 at a higher level, although I don't know enough about fish physiology to know whether that is really true. I'm not expecting to ever use supplemental CO2, so for me greater gas exchange is a bonus for both O2 and CO2.

Some details here: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen–haemoglobin_dissociation_curve>

cheers Darrel

 

[hinch]

Hi all,

But my (very basic and possibly incorrect) understanding of the 'planted' aquarium hobby, is that too much Oxygen is BAD ? As it prevents high CO2 concentrations ?

No, I think they are largely independent of one another in the tank water, what makes a difference is the diffusion gradient across the fishes gills, because haemoglobin has an affinity for both CO2 and O2 (the Bohr effect). The argument If you have high O2 you can run the CO2 at a higher level, although I don't know enough about fish physiology to know whether that is really true. I'm not expecting to ever use supplemental CO2, so for me greater gas exchange is a bonus for both O2 and CO2.

Some details here: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen–haemoglobin_dissociation_curve>

cheers Darrel

thats pretty much correct for all living animals as long as the ratio of o2 to co2 is in the acceptible range then more o2 can also = more co2. too much o2 for example and you die too much co2 and you die either way but if the ratios are correct it can be as super saturated as you like.

for my L number tanks I have a big canister on each of them + a large foam + air filter too. for those l's that like more flow I then have a powerhead in too. the bases of all the tanks are fine gravel as I rely on that being my primary biological filtration and the canisters just have a coarse foam in them + bioballs just to give that little bit of mechanical filtration with the foam and a small amount of additional biological. but tbh once the tank is up and running and cycled I could do away with the canisters however I leave them as they give the tank an effective volume increase of 12L per tank

 

[Antipofish]

Hi all,

But my (very basic and possibly incorrect) understanding of the 'planted' aquarium hobby, is that too much Oxygen is BAD ? As it prevents high CO2 concentrations ?

No, I think they are largely independent of one another in the tank water, what makes a difference is the diffusion gradient across the fishes gills, because haemoglobin has an affinity for both CO2 and O2 (the Bohr effect). The argument If you have high O2 you can run the CO2 at a higher level, although I don't know enough about fish physiology to know whether that is really true. I'm not expecting to ever use supplemental CO2, so for me greater gas exchange is a bonus for both O2 and CO2.

Some details here: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen–haemoglobin_dissociation_curve>

cheers Darrel

thats pretty much correct for all living animals as long as the ratio of o2 to co2 is in the acceptible range then more o2 can also = more co2. too much o2 for example and you die too much co2 and you die either way but if the ratios are correct it can be as super saturated as you like.

for my L number tanks I have a big canister on each of them + a large foam + air filter too. for those l's that like more flow I then have a powerhead in too. the bases of all the tanks are fine gravel as I rely on that being my primary biological filtration and the canisters just have a coarse foam in them + bioballs just to give that little bit of mechanical filtration with the foam and a small amount of additional biological. but tbh once the tank is up and running and cycled I could do away with the canisters however I leave them as they give the tank an effective volume increase of 12L per tank

Sorry, I was talking about plants not fish. OR do you mean you can still have high O2 and high CO2 ?

 

[foxfish]

I think adding 02 rich water is a good thing as it allows more C02 to be safely added to the tank without harming the fish - I think :?
This is one reason the likes of Tom Barr & Takashi Amano use trickle filters in their home tanks or at least that is what I assume!
However I don't think adding air via an air stone is such a good idea as this would drive of C02 through excess surface agitation.

 

[Antipofish]

I think adding 02 rich water is a good thing as it allows more C02 to be safely added to the tank without harming the fish - I think :?
This is one reason the likes of Tom Barr & Takashi Amano use trickle filters in their home tanks or at least that is what I assume!
However I don't think adding air via an air stone is such a good idea as this would drive of C02 through excess surface agitation.

Now I am getting it. Dissolved O2 is fine, as it arrives via oxygenation within the filter but adding it via an airstone does the opposite ? Why don't we use ozonisers then ?

 

[OllieNZ]

I think adding 02 rich water is a good thing as it allows more C02 to be safely added to the tank without harming the fish - I think :?
This is one reason the likes of Tom Barr & Takashi Amano use trickle filters in their home tanks or at least that is what I assume!
However I don't think adding air via an air stone is such a good idea as this would drive of C02 through excess surface agitation.

Now I am getting it. Dissolved O2 is fine, as it arrives via oxygenation within the filter but adding it via an airstone does the opposite ? Why don't we use ozonisers then ?

The problem with using an airstone in a co2 injected tank is that we are adding co2 to the water above the levels normally found and running the airstone tries to restore the balance between co2 levels in the water with co2 levels in the atmosphere. With a sump as long as you add the co2 into the tank or return pipe line it offsets the outgassing in the trickle filter.

Correct me if im wrong but Tom Barr worked on a massive tank where they were injecting o2.

 

[Calzone]

So did some maintenance today, essentially cleaned the filter and hoses. The filter was in good shape, not surprising since the tank has been cycling without fish or plants. The hoses however were thick with dark deposits. It looked remarkably like bits of crushed Aquasoil, but expect it was algae of some form driven by the nh3 coming off the Aquasoil. Cleaning it out was a nightmare. Frankly, disassembling the pipes wasn't easy and there was some spillage involved! I also took out about 25% of the media - there's still masses left.

Anyway, this all took abut 90 mins, during which time the media was either in the air or not getting flow.

The good news was flow went up maybe 20-25% afterwards, some due to clean hoses, some due to less media I suppose.

The bad news is that I simply could not get the hoses back onto the shortened hose barbs on the am1000 without it leaking. Which is not funny when you have 300kg of water above the leak. Think this is because the hoses have stretched and the jubilee clips don't have enough purchase, and I probably chopped em too short. Stupido.

Anyone know where am1000 parts come from? Aqua superstore or aquacadabra?

Hopefully won't take too long to find some.

Second issue, having left the media out for 90 mins while doing the maintenance, I then forgot to add Prime to the tank when refilling (30% change or so) for about 2 hours. So I suppose it's possible I have not done my bacterial population any favours..... Which would be annoying given the filter was nearly cycled after 6 weeks. Just wait and see I guess. Not a disaster since I intend to put the existing mature filter on the tank too when I switch over the livestock.

 

[Antipofish]

Hi Nick, sounds like you have had a few trials and tribulations. All par for the course when getting used to a new setup I think. Hopefully you have not done too much damage to the bacteria. Have you thought about a handful of hardy fish to help with the filter ? Or do you want to remain fishless ? When will you be putting plants in ?

 

[Calzone]

Fish less. I'm not in a hurry, hopefully the stupid owner won't have set things back too far.

Plants, in intend to look at ordering v soon but will need a day off to plant as weekends just wont work. Busy at work right now, so that's difficult to slot in. Plus currently am co2 challenged!! Until I fix that things will be delayed. Shouldn't be much of a problem mind. Hopefully.

 

[darren636]

dosing ammonia is far more efficient for cycling. Probably twice as fast.

 

[Antipofish]

dosing ammonia is far more efficient for cycling. Probably twice as fast.

Hi Darren, planted substrates leach ammonia, often in quite high levels. Is this effectively not the same thing?

 

[darren636]

YES IT IS , ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE FISH DURING CYCLING IS GOOD,

 

[Calzone]

Well, if I did wipeout my backfires, I guess I can find out second time round! Mind you it was taking ages. About three weeks to get zero ammonia, and as of yesterday I still had 0.5ppm no2. Will check later today. Suppose if the Aquasoil is not kicking out nh3 any more it might be hard to tell.

In my experience the bacteria are quite robust to lack of flow, not sure about missing the prime....