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Antipofish
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darren636 said:
What are you thoughts on the sticky post on non fishless cycling in a heavily planted tank mate?
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Calzone's new 120x60x45 optiwhite tank build
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What are you thoughts on the sticky post on non fishless cycling in a heavily planted tank mate?
A
Antipofish
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Sorry Nick, seems this thread is going off at so many tangents, spurred by topics you are raising. Hope you don't mind these "sidelines" but if you prefer we can take them to another thread ?
From my perspective the more intelligence on the thread the better (I use the word in the sense of "data", but I like the other meaning too 
).
Personally, it seems there's a risk the cycling with fish will put them at risk or cause them discomfort even with heavily planted tanks. So for the sake of waiting a few weeks why not just go fish less. No risk at all that way. Jim at TGM even advised waiting to plant with the Aquasoil as the combination of ammonia, lights and small/adjusting plants will give algae big time, or require daily large water changes. So while my tank is taking its sweet time to cycle ( some related to my timetable to be fair), I've only had to change water once a week and no real algae apart from some stuff on the red moor which had dropped off with the nh3 spike dropping away.
Sorted out the electrical cables today - my 6 yr old just fit enough to reach the sockets to replace the old tank's plugs with the new two lots of 6 sockets surge protected, individually switched. I got the 12 because although I won't need 12, I will need 4 or 5 timer sockets, and these take up so much space.
So, my sockets use will be:
Eheim 2180
APS 1000EX UV
1 set of two T5 lights on timer
1 set of two T5 lights on timer (to use the 4 lights evenly and give flexibility
1 solenoid on timer
1 set moonlight LEDs on timer
1 koralia power head for flow on timer
1 for water change pump
You'll note there's more than 4 on timer switches. I may put the koralia on the same timer as the solenoid, so there's high flow when the co2 is on, but not at night.
I fitted the koralia today. Think I may have oversized it (it was on offer cheaper than the smaller models...). It doesn't look much but the substrate was more or less being lifted off the ground ( Aquasoil powder, no plants), and this is after the water has travelled a good meter or so. I hope this will be fine once the plants and carpeting plants go in. The good news is I can see the circulation pattern is robust at least ( before plants that is).
).Personally, it seems there's a risk the cycling with fish will put them at risk or cause them discomfort even with heavily planted tanks. So for the sake of waiting a few weeks why not just go fish less. No risk at all that way. Jim at TGM even advised waiting to plant with the Aquasoil as the combination of ammonia, lights and small/adjusting plants will give algae big time, or require daily large water changes. So while my tank is taking its sweet time to cycle ( some related to my timetable to be fair), I've only had to change water once a week and no real algae apart from some stuff on the red moor which had dropped off with the nh3 spike dropping away.
Sorted out the electrical cables today - my 6 yr old just fit enough to reach the sockets to replace the old tank's plugs with the new two lots of 6 sockets surge protected, individually switched. I got the 12 because although I won't need 12, I will need 4 or 5 timer sockets, and these take up so much space.
So, my sockets use will be:
Eheim 2180
APS 1000EX UV
1 set of two T5 lights on timer
1 set of two T5 lights on timer (to use the 4 lights evenly and give flexibility
1 solenoid on timer
1 set moonlight LEDs on timer
1 koralia power head for flow on timer
1 for water change pump
You'll note there's more than 4 on timer switches. I may put the koralia on the same timer as the solenoid, so there's high flow when the co2 is on, but not at night.
I fitted the koralia today. Think I may have oversized it (it was on offer cheaper than the smaller models...). It doesn't look much but the substrate was more or less being lifted off the ground ( Aquasoil powder, no plants), and this is after the water has travelled a good meter or so. I hope this will be fine once the plants and carpeting plants go in. The good news is I can see the circulation pattern is robust at least ( before plants that is).
A
Antipofish
Guest
darren636 said:
Didn't want an argument mate. Just wondered why you were so definite about your comments, when there seems to be a definite argument against. I personally go with the fishless cycling myself, but can follow the logic and reasoning behind the alternative. Its always good to hear other opinions in case something has been missed.
A
Antipofish
Guest
Calzone said:From my perspective the more intelligence on the thread the better (I use the word in the sense of "data", but I like the other meaning too
Personally, it seems there's a risk the cycling with fish will put them at risk or cause them discomfort even with heavily planted tanks. So for the sake of waiting a few weeks why not just go fish less. No risk at all that way.
I tend to agree, though if you follow the rules about "fish in" cycling and keep on top of the water changes and parameter monitoring I doubt the fish would be any more discomforted than in the LFS tanks, lol.
Jim at TGM even advised waiting to plant with the Aquasoil as the combination of ammonia, lights and small/adjusting plants will give algae big time, or require daily large water changes. So while my tank is taking its sweet time to cycle ( some related to my timetable to be fair), I've only had to change water once a week and no real algae apart from some stuff on the red moor which had dropped off with the nh3 spike dropping away.
Sorted out the electrical cables today - my 6 yr old just fit enough to reach the sockets to replace the old tank's plugs with the new two lots of 6 sockets surge protected, individually switched.
Lol, keep him hungry so he can remain small enough to get in those cracks and crevices you cannot reach. Do you make him sweep the chimney too, and go through transome windows for you at night? FAGIN! hahahaha
I got the 12 because although I won't need 12, I will need 4 or 5 timer sockets, and these take up so much space.
So, my sockets use will be:
Eheim 2180
APS 1000EX UV
1 set of two T5 lights on timer
1 set of two T5 lights on timer (to use the 4 lights evenly and give flexibility
1 solenoid on timer
1 set moonlight LEDs on timer
1 koralia power head for flow on timer
1 for water change pump
You'll note there's more than 4 on timer switches. I may put the koralia on the same timer as the solenoid, so there's high flow when the co2 is on, but not at night.
LOL I hope you got the electronic timers or the whirring will make more noise than your filter! You sure you dont want a 2075 as a backup ?
I fitted the koralia today. Think I may have oversized it (it was on offer cheaper than the smaller models...). It doesn't look much but the substrate was more or less being lifted off the ground ( Aquasoil powder, no plants), and this is after the water has travelled a good meter or so. I hope this will be fine once the plants and carpeting plants go in. The good news is I can see the circulation pattern is robust at least ( before plants that is).
Hmm, whatever it is doing to the substrate it will do to the plants surely ? I wonder if they can be connected to a rheostat switch to ramp them up and down a bit ?
Sounds like things are progressing well at least. If you can't book a day off for your planting you may have to splash out on a day out for the rest of the family one weekend, LOL. Send them to the London Eye or something...
A
Antipofish
Guest
darren636 said:
Lol, you were weren't you ? Maybe my comment read the wrong way round, but I interpreted that you advocate fishless cycle, so no confusion there
A
Antipofish
Guest
darren636 said:
Darren before making such a sweeping statement, can I suggest you read the fish..in cycle method described on this forum, and the reasons why people believe that with correct management there is no harm to the fish ? You are sounding rather absolute in your opinion there (and everyone is entitled to their opinion) but there is evidence to the contrary of what you have stated under certain circumstances
Test this morning: nh3 zero, no2 zero.
Given there was no2 in the tank Saturday and haven't changed all the water, this implies the bacteria didn't all die off despite my best efforts (subject to the accuracy of the test kit of course).
Good news. Probably!
Given there was no2 in the tank Saturday and haven't changed all the water, this implies the bacteria didn't all die off despite my best efforts (subject to the accuracy of the test kit of course).
Good news. Probably!
absolute i amAntipofish said:darren636 said:
Darren before making such a sweeping statement, can I suggest you read the fish..in cycle method described on this forum, and the reasons why people believe that with correct management there is no harm to the fish ? You are sounding rather absolute in your opinion there (and everyone is entitled to their opinion) but there is evidence to the contrary of what you have stated under certain circumstances
because we want the absolute best for the creatures in our care. Sorry. Going way off thread calzone.
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Antipofish
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darren636 said:absolute i amAntipofish said:darren636 said:
Darren before making such a sweeping statement, can I suggest you read the fish..in cycle method described on this forum, and the reasons why people believe that with correct management there is no harm to the fish ? You are sounding rather absolute in your opinion there (and everyone is entitled to their opinion) but there is evidence to the contrary of what you have stated under certain circumstances
Fair enough. I just always try to keep an open mind about alternatives, especially when the evidence suggests that there is no harm involved. Out of interest, do you also use RO water and try to match the water parameters of where the fish would normally be used to ? I am thinking about getting an RO rig so I can do that. I would love to have done a complete biotope match but thats proving more difficult than I first imagined.
Nick, are you going to be using RO mate ? I cannot remember if you have said that yet. Its a big tank to be doing RO water changes with though..
Antipofish said:
I have no plans to do so. My tap water is hard, which is mostly fine for plants, and not a disaster for most fish, though it may limit breeding. I'll be careful to check LFS water conditions and drip acclimatise. I will probably avoid unsuitable fish like rheophilic cats, soft water acid lovers etc (with the exception of cardinals or neons where they're tank bred and have somewhat adapted).
RO would just be expensive and painful, and frankly a step too far for the wife.
The one issue I do have mind you, is the water softener fitted to the house. This essentially means only the kitchen cold water tap is unsoftened, which means that changing 50% water in winter is not possible without dropping the tank temp by at least 5deg C, unless I buy some huge container and prefill/warm. Not ideal.
If I go EI, can I do several 15% water changes, with a temp drop of say 2 deg C rather than one 50% change? Its a pain, to be sure. But not sure that putting in loads of freezing water, plus a couple of boiling kettles will work...
Say two kettles worth is 3 litres at 95 deg C, and the cold tap is 150 litres at 10 deg C, and the tank is 180 litres left at 24 deg C, then by my clacs adding the kettles will make less than 1 deg C difference to the final temp (18.3C down from 24.....). A 15% change of only 50 litres would take the temp down to 21.9 deg C, and with kettles to 22.5 deg c.
Pretty sure the fish will be ok with a 1.7 deg C drop for an hour or two. Am I right? Will EI work ok with multiple smaller water changes? I can't see why not as I understood the 50% change was designed to stabilise levels and remove enough waste products, but was done in one change just to make life easy, doing it in multiples will achieve the same ends with more work.
Regarding the cycling debate - sounds like we are all agreed, and that Darren has firm views to which he's entitled which is fair enough, and we can all move on to more practical discussions!!
Sounds good to me.Calzone said:
Most fish will be ok with a couple of degrees drop. It triggers spawning in a lot of species; similar to huge rainfall and seasonal changes in the wild. Try to avoid much more than that though, as big fluctuations are known to trigger ich etc.
Regarding EI; the 50% WC is not set in stone. Like you suggest, as long as you're dosing enough nutrients and performing enough water changes to dilute waste organic build-up, then you'll be fine. I often think that lots of smaller water changes may be better for the overall system with less fluctuations in water chemistry etc.
Nice journal, by the way. Some great discussion points arising.
Thanks George. That's what I figured about the temp. I suppose I could always refill very slowly, giving the heater (500W in the filter) a chance to heat things. I don't expect it will make that much difference (suppose I could always get my partial differential equations brain back in gear, or perhaps more realistically, just suck it and see). I normally leave the filter running when changing as it keeps the bacteria happy, but since I've just demonstrated they survive just fine for a few hours without flow, and because in future it will degas CO2, I guess I'll turn it off when changing water. Not least since I just fitted the eheim installation kit 2 spray bar, which is better than the original, but doesn't have an adjustable height, so the spray would probably be falling a foot or so and potentially disturbing the substrate/fish etc.
hinch
Member
in my 2 bigger tanks I just put straight cold in from the hose pipe however I have it running fairly slowly so it trickle refills the tank rather than bursts it
A
Antipofish
Guest
You could always warm the water using boiled water from the kettle
Antipofish said:You could always warm the water using boiled water from the kettle
I can't tell if you're joking or not... As I suggested above, it would take a lot of kettles to make the slightest bit of difference to 150 litres....
If it becomes a pain, I can always get a couple of 25 litre jerry cans and fill 'em the night before.
