Fluval Studio 900...'Dragons Crypt' Journal finished.

[Antipofish]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Well you know what ? Im not bothered. I do my best in my tank to keep them alive. And they stand a better chance of surviving in my tank WITH CO2 than they probably would against predation in the wild. They stand a better chance WITH CO2 in my tank than most of the hobbyists I cited earlier too. Risk Matrix ? Jees are we taking things a bit to far ? Its a fish tank ! I care about the fish, but there is only so far you can take this hobby. Turn it into something it seems you want to Darrell, and ask yourself how many people would actually bother with fishkeeping at all. Its the same as all the other "politically correct" cr4p that goes on today... people take it to such an extreme that the fun of doing it in the first place is completely lost. Make this hobby so inaccessible and difficult for people and there will be no hobby at all.

And incidentally, crossing the road is "risky" but I dont need a Risk Matrix to cross to the other side

 

[dw1305]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Hi all,

Well you know what ? Im not bothered......Risk Matrix ? Jees are we taking things a bit to far ? Its a fish tank ! I care about the fish, but there is only so far you can take this hobby. Turn it into something it seems you want to Darrell, and ask yourself how many people would actually bother with fishkeeping at all. Its the same as all the other "politically correct" cr4p that goes on today

You are entitled to your view. I can't justify keeping any pet on ethical grounds, or driving a car, eating meat, using a computer, buying vegetables flown in from Africa or intensively farmed chicken, or heating my house. I do all of these, and I used to shoot and go fishing as well. In fact I would be happy to admit that I have probably deliberately killed more creatures than the vast majority of the members of this forum, but now I'm setting out to kill as few as possible without a very good reason.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Hi all,

and recent readings from Tom Barr using greater surface agitation and subsequent oxgen increases to raise c02 levels higher without ill effects to the fish, this seems to suggest that it isnt necessarily the level of c02 concentration, but the level of oxygen content that plays a significant role also.

I think the answer to this is to do with the Root (Bohr) effect, oxygen–haemoglobin dissociation curve and the affinity of haemoglobin for both O2 and CO2. I don't fully understand this, but I think that higher oxygen levels mean that an oxygen molecule is more likely to displace a CO2 molecule on a haemoglobin molecule (at the gas exchange surface in the gills).

"Nephrocalcinosis occurs when natural CO2 levels in the water are high and/or when additional oxygenation is used to increase carrying capacity, and the total amount of metabolic CO2 excreted is increased as a result (Harrison 1979b)." Obviously this is related to neophrocalcinosis, not hypercapnia, but in solving one fish health risk are we then not creating another? or is this more only an issue in hard water?

I also don't know the answer to the nephrocalcinosis question, but this would suggest the answer is probably that it is a potential problem, even in soft water, for salmonids, but I'm not sure about other fish. <http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/103/the-importance-of-measuring-carbon-dioxide-in-aquaculture>
"The relationship between nephrocalcinosis and high CO2 is still not completely understood, but is likely to involve the excretion of minerals, particularly phosphorus and calcium, when compensating for blood acidosis. "

the benefits of c02 injected tanks of higher photosynthesis rates/increased oxygenation and filtering benefits help to keep things stable (incidentally this is one of the reasons why i find it acceptable to run c02 injection as it limits the risk matrix to a degree), especially in reference to oxygen availablity during the day, but would it therefore be beneficial to run an airstone overnight until about 1hr into the photoperiod when plants begin oxygenating the water naturally? This way there should always be a high concentration of 02 available, counteracting the higher levels of c02?

I'd definitely run the air stone until lights on, I know people like to build up CO2 levels before photosynthesis starts, but that is the time when asphyxiation is most likely to occur. Because it is really difficult to measure dissolved CO2 and O2 levels, you have to use indicators like fish breathing rates and pH/dKH (easiest with a drop checker) to give you a proxy for dissolved gas levels. I've never used CO2, so other with practical experience may be able to tell you if the fish show any distress signs in the period when CO2 is building up before lights on.

I only keep planted tanks, in water quality terms plants are a win, win situation. You don't need CO2 for this, in any tank with active photosynthesis, and water with a low BOD, all planted tanks should achieve DO levels near to saturation. In tanks with pearling the water will be super-saturated with oxygen and DO levels will be above 100%. I've dipped the DO meter into the tank at work every now and then and it is always close to 100% saturation, but I very rarely get pearling (usually only when the sun is on the tank).

cheers Darrel

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Disaster.

Hi,

Hi all,

and recent readings from Tom Barr using greater surface agitation and subsequent oxgen increases to raise c02 levels higher without ill effects to the fish, this seems to suggest that it isnt necessarily the level of c02 concentration, but the level of oxygen content that plays a significant role also.

I think the answer to this is to do with the Root (Bohr) effect, oxygen–haemoglobin dissociation curve and the affinity of haemoglobin for both O2 and CO2. I don't fully understand this, but I think that higher oxygen levels mean that an oxygen molecule is more likely to displace a CO2 molecule on a haemoglobin molecule (at the gas exchange surface in the gills).

"Nephrocalcinosis occurs when natural CO2 levels in the water are high and/or when additional oxygenation is used to increase carrying capacity, and the total amount of metabolic CO2 excreted is increased as a result (Harrison 1979b)." Obviously this is related to neophrocalcinosis, not hypercapnia, but in solving one fish health risk are we then not creating another? or is this more only an issue in hard water?

I also don't know the answer to the nephrocalcinosis question, but this would suggest the answer is probably that it is a potential problem, even in soft water, for salmonids, but I'm not sure about other fish. <http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/103/the-importance-of-measuring-carbon-dioxide-in-aquaculture>
"The relationship between nephrocalcinosis and high CO2 is still not completely understood, but is likely to involve the excretion of minerals, particularly phosphorus and calcium, when compensating for blood acidosis. "

the benefits of c02 injected tanks of higher photosynthesis rates/increased oxygenation and filtering benefits help to keep things stable (incidentally this is one of the reasons why i find it acceptable to run c02 injection as it limits the risk matrix to a degree), especially in reference to oxygen availablity during the day, but would it therefore be beneficial to run an airstone overnight until about 1hr into the photoperiod when plants begin oxygenating the water naturally? This way there should always be a high concentration of 02 available, counteracting the higher levels of c02?

I'd definitely run the air stone until lights on, I know people like to build up CO2 levels before photosynthesis starts, but that is the time when asphyxiation is most likely to occur. Because it is really difficult to measure dissolved CO2 and O2 levels, you have to use indicators like fish breathing rates and pH/dKH (easiest with a drop checker) to give you a proxy for dissolved gas levels. I've never used CO2, so other with practical experience may be able to tell you if the fish show any distress signs in the period when CO2 is building up before lights on.

I only keep planted tanks, in water quality terms plants are a win, win situation. You don't need CO2 for this, in any tank with active photosynthesis, and water with a low BOD, all planted tanks should achieve DO levels near to saturation. In tanks with pearling the water will be super-saturated with oxygen and DO levels will be above 100%. I've dipped the DO meter into the tank at work every now and then and it is always close to 100% saturation, but I very rarely get pearling (usually only when the sun is on the tank).

cheers Darrel

It seems a contentious issue really, from reading that link the closing paragraph states:
"Remember that high levels of oxygen may not help either as the fish respiratory rate is governed by levels of oxygen, high O2 can slow the rate of elimination of CO2 from the blood, thus increasing the hypercapnia. By increasing levels of oxygen, you may just make things worse.

Source: Fish Vet Group - July 2005"
:?
Think ill stick to oxgenating overnight and let it switch off at 7.30am well before the c02 begins. This was working well before and i now have found a good c02 balance again with happy fish. I switch the c02 on 3.5 hrs pre lights on to get a slow increase in the level and a good level at lights on so photosynthesis can begin quickly to oxygenate the water naturally at peak c02 levels. The c02 also goes off 3hrs pre lights off so i only have 5 of the 8 hour photoperiod with peak c02 when the plants are using it most. I think this is a good balance for flora and fauna and limits exposure from the fish point of view .
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Plants.

Moving on from the previous topic an update of the plants.
This is in no way scientific and could be due to other factors such as 2 weeks ago halving the weekly mineral salt addition and effectively softening the water, but 3 weeks ago i decided to stop dosing extra potassium (easy life) in a bid to save money feeling that my macro fertiliser may provide sufficient. Maybe its coincidence, or maybe theres something in it but since then my hygrophila pinnatifida has declined in health with much reduced growth and many of the lower leaves yellowing and showing signs of red/brown spots (the reason i started dosing extra K in the first place). The ludwigia arcuata which had began better growth also seemed to loose its edge, with the leaves seemingly 'drooping'. Im positive that the pinnatifida is a response to the reduced K, however unsure of the arcuata (sounds more c02 related). What i will say is that since reinstating the extra K dosing (2.5ml/day) 3 days ago the arcuata has visibly improved and the tips are now turning a pink/red colour. Admittedly these are the uppermost closest to the light, but the overall plant health seems improved. I will monitor the hygrophila pinnatifida and note any improvement here also. This is the first time really that the arcuata has turned a noticable pink so im quite pleased with that..... typically its due a trim, as is the rest of the tank, so will be lopping those ends off next water change.
Arcuata:

Tank in need of a serious haircut, and looking a little shy on fish stock:

Will next water change be removing the staurogyne which is showing no signs of improvement and cleaning up the foreground sand bed a little. Major general prune and thinning of larger crypt leaves.
Also at the moment i seem to be suffering an increase in bga along the substrate line, maybe due to slightly sunnier weather and natural light on the tank. Ive had it for a while in the centre of the tank at substrate level, mostly below substrate but a little above. Now it has increased and spread further along the substrate line. :?:
The tank is becoming rather overgrown and more difficult to manage, but i have decided with other personal commitments that this will run until at least august before a rescape.
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[faizal]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Plants.

It's looking very nice in there. Fish heaven is what it is.

 

[LondonDragon]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Plants.

Tank is looking great Ady, sorry to hear about the CO2 incident, you not the first and won't be the last, for those of us that like to run it in higher settings any changes on conditions can tip the balance, last time it happened to me was due to a big prune and replanting of the tank, a oily film developed at the top of the tank and that prevent CO2 escaping as quick as it did before and because I was on the edge it affected some of the fish.

Keep up the good work, plants are looking awesome

 

[clonitza]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Plants.

The tank looks great, staurogyne needs a bit of light to develop, might need to trim the plants that shade it.
Keep up the good work!

 

[O'Neil]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Plants.

That tank is awesome!!!!!

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Plants.

Hi,

It's looking very nice in there. Fish heaven is what it is.

... no pun intended

Tank is looking great Ady, sorry to hear about the CO2 incident, you not the first and won't be the last, for those of us that like to run it in higher settings any changes on conditions can tip the balance, last time it happened to me was due to a big prune and replanting of the tank, a oily film developed at the top of the tank and that prevent CO2 escaping as quick as it did before and because I was on the edge it affected some of the fish.

Keep up the good work, plants are looking awesome

Cheers Paulo,
and your right, you need to be so switched on with c02 and constantly adjust to any changes, like you say a major prune effects plant consumption and therefore you need to lower injection rate accordingly.

The tank looks great, staurogyne needs a bit of light to develop, might need to trim the plants that shade it.
Keep up the good work!

Yeah, i think it may have been Spyder who offered the same advice..... in all honesty it did do better initially when there was much less plant mass and when situated in the soil rather than sand. Im just gonna remove it now, i like the monosolenium tenerum thats taking over that foreground spot and that will grow in low light so win win.

That tank is awesome!!!!!

Thanks mate, and ill let you know in the future if i need any assasins, im gonna run this tank until at least mid august now, but ill try manual removal to limit numbers first as although i suspect the ramshorns nibble, its only a couple of plant species and if im to be honest i kinda like them

Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Antipofish]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Plants.

Guys, all these comments about different variables potentially "tipping the balance"... pruning, surface scum etc... has got me thinking. Surely there is some kind of equipment we can use to maintain CO2 levels at a fixed amount ? Can pH controllers not come into play here ? Or something similar ? We must be able to measure the CO2 saturation level that works for us and then use something electronic to maintain that. Surely ? Or is this a niche in the market yet to be filled ? Cheers.

Ady: hope you dont mind me raising this here. Id be happy for a mod to create a new thread if you prefer....

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Plants.

Guys, all these comments about different variables potentially "tipping the balance"... pruning, surface scum etc... has got me thinking. Surely there is some kind of equipment we can use to maintain CO2 levels at a fixed amount ? Can pH controllers not come into play here ? Or something similar ? We must be able to measure the CO2 saturation level that works for us and then use something electronic to maintain that. Surely ? Or is this a niche in the market yet to be filled ? Cheers.

Ady: hope you dont mind me raising this here. Id be happy for a mod to create a new thread if you prefer....

I dont mind Chris, its what its all about. There have been some interesting points raised here recently which could have formed sub forum threads, but to me its good they are being talked about.
I think ph controllers have been used and are by some but they too can be innaccurate as other factors can effect the ph levels thus rendering ph to dictate actual c02 levels and injection rates useless.
Most people probably dont adjust their c02 when carrying out pruning etc, but really if its large trim you are in effect increasing the c02 as less is being used by the plants, and if its already high/on the limit of tolerance then you can tip the balance negatively for the livestock. The key for most is to reach a setting (with lighting and c02 injection rate/ distribution etc) whereby you have a little leniency so you dont have to adjust constantly.
I dont think there will be anything that can precisely maintain c02 as there are too many variables, but the best way is probably going to be understanding the process, common sense and watching the tank.... as we are already doing.
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[faizal]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Plants.

Hi,

It's looking very nice in there. Fish heaven is what it is.

... no pun intended

Oh, cr*p !! I'm sorry !!! I just got that !! I didn't mean it that way.

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Plants.

Hi,

It's looking very nice in there. Fish heaven is what it is.

... no pun intended

Oh, cr*p !! I'm sorry !!! I just got that !! I didn't mean it that way.

I know you didnt mate dont worry i was just havin a laugh, it was too good an opportunity not to say something .

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... 'Dragons Crypt'

Dragons Crypt......
heres the info from my IAPLC 2012 entry....
[LAYOUT TITLE]
'Dragons Crypt'

[AQUARIUM SIZE]
W: 90 x D: 45 x H: 45 (cm)

[WATER PLANTS]
Eleocharis parvula, Eleocharis Acicularis, Hygrophila pinnatifida, Hygrophila corymbosa 'Siamensis', Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig', Microsorum pteropus 'narrow', Microsorum pteropus 'petit', Bolbitis heudelotii, Taxiphyllum barbieri, Cryptocoryne: balansae, parva, beckettii 'petchii', undulata 'broad leaves', wendtii 'brown', wendtii 'Mi Oya', wendtii 'tropica', Staurogyne repens, Hydrocotle sp. Japan, Ludwigia arcuata, Monosolenium tenerum, Blyxa japonica, Anubias nana 'petite', Silvania natans.

[FISH]
Trigonostigma heteromorpha, Petitella georgiae, Paracheirodon axelrodi, Otocinclus vestitus.

[SUBSTRATE]
ADA Amazonia, ADA Powersand special M, ADA Penac P, Unipac Zambezi sand.

[FILTER]
Fluval G6

[LIGHT]
2x 39w HO T5 Hagen Life Glo 8hrs/day

[CO2]
2kg pressurised via Boyu inline diffuser

[COMMENTS]



*** NOTE ***
This E-mail was sent to IAPLC applicant. If this E-mail means anything to you, please contact to following address.

------------
AQUA DESIGN AMANO CO.,LTD.
E-mail:support@iaplc.com
Tel: +81 256-72-6666 / Fax: +81 256-73-3579
------------
8554-1 Urushiyama Nishikan-ku
Niigata 953-0054 JAPAN------------

..... cool!
Just entered to keep the numbers up but feels quite exciting. Its a good way of culminating all the current info on the tank too.
Dragons Crypt.... never thought about a name before but you have to give one, so thought about the 'dragon' stone you can no longer see because its 'buried' under the mass of mainly 'cryptocoryne' plant species in the tank.
Just thought id share my childish excitement
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[tim]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... IAPLC 2012 'Dragons Crypt'.

pretty cool ady awesome tank !

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... IAPLC 2012 'Dragons Crypt'.

pretty cool ady awesome tank !

cheers Tim .

Well, major prune and thinning of plant mass on monday evening has resulted in much better flow and distribution and once again the mist is rolling around the full tank im sure to the delight of my plants. It was getting late on monday night so left the hairgrass trimming and sand bed clearing for another day. Ill do this and then carry out another water change this week as it was quite a severe hack and want to make sure i keep the water in check as i uprooted some balansae and disturbed the substrate. Some balansae was so heavily rooted it simply snapped when i tried to remove it, with the root system so wide it was moving the substrate for several inches around the plant base. The eleocharis parvula in the foreground has gone very pale and patchy which i presume is because of overshadowing and possibly reduced c02 due to poor distribution, will be interesting to see if it improves again. Also the bga seems to be spreading onto the hairgrass so ill have to watch this too.... is it a case of manual removal and water changes to rid this stuff?
Its amazing how the colours within the tank have changed as more light is penetrating... it almost looks too bright now, a little cold and too green compared with the overgrown plant mass that gave areas of shadow and contrast and a sense of cosyness.
Once ive completed the trimming and tidying ill post an image.
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[faizal]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... IAPLC 2012 'Dragons Crypt'.

..... it almost looks too bright now, a little cold and too green compared with the overgrown plant mass that gave areas of shadow and contrast and a sense of cosyness.

I know what you mean. Don't worry mate,...it'll be back to its usual coziness in no time. Looking forward to a picture.

 

[Ian Holdich]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... IAPLC 2012 'Dragons Crypt'.

i'm sure you'll do well Ady!

 

[Timms2011]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... IAPLC 2012 'Dragons Crypt'.

Any chance of a pic after the trim? Would be great to follow the progression from there