Larry's Glade

[dw1305]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Hi all,
I'm sorry really horrible when this happens, for me it is definitely a water quality issue, the problem is trying to find which parameter. I'm not a great believer in "pH shock" as a cause of death, if you tipped 1/2 a bottle of NaOH or HCl into the tank it would certainly kill the fish, but I'm not convinced that relatively slow changes in pH cause fish death.

My suspicion would be that it is an ammonia issue, despite the test kit readings. This could be 1 of 3 things:

1. De-oxygenation, where the NH3 conversion has stripped the O2 from the water. However if your deaths happened why the lights are on? this is unlikely.

2. The rise in pH converted enough NH4+ to NH3 to kill the fish.

3. Levels of NH3 rose high enough to cause gill damage and death.

I'd be tempted to do a complete water change, add a few stems/floaters for the while (I usually use Ceratophyllum or Limnobium) and then wait for a couple of weeks before adding any more livestock. I'm pretty sure once the tank has stabilised you won't have any more problems.

cheers Darrel

 

[Radik]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

So as Darrel said do full water change and then you can test water and again over time do not add any stock yet. If that's amazonia substrate you can still go through cycle sometimes it takes longer.

No osmocotte there added?

 

[Ian Holdich]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

just had a read back through this thread...why Miracle grow? Personally i wouldn't have bothered with it...it contains dye's, and the make up isn't really good for aquatic life. Isn't the chlorine in Miracle grow sky high as well? More than a dose of de chlor could probably handle?

 

[hotweldfire]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

So the shrimp reappeared. More surprisingly a surviving rasbora showed up today too. Both look less than great but alive at least.

Test results today indicate stable PH, no ammonia or nitrite and again nitrate at at least 50ppm.

Nitrates at high ppm can be also toxic to fish and shrimps and you do not have enough plants to absorb them fast. Maybe you are at peak of nitrogen cycle and ammonia is converting fast to nitrites and then nitrates + you added tpn+. So maybe half of what you measured would be Ok around 20-25ppm. Do

I'm starting to suspect there's something in what you say. TBH I'm a skeptic about the effects of nitrate on fish/shrimp health. I'm also a skeptic about the reliability of nitrate test kits. But I have been picking up the same sort of reading for the last few weeks, ever since the tank properly cycled (assuming it ever did). Given I did a massive RO water change 2 days ago why am I getting a nitrate reading like this?

Hi all,
1. De-oxygenation, where the NH3 conversion has stripped the O2 from the water. However if your deaths happened why the lights are on? this is unlikely.

Lights came on at 5pm I got home at 6pm. Deaths could well have happened when lights were off. Or am I misunderstanding?

2. The rise in pH converted enough NH4+ to NH3 to kill the fish.

3. Levels of NH3 rose high enough to cause gill damage and death.

I'd be tempted to do a complete water change, add a few stems/floaters for the while (I usually use Ceratophyllum or Limnobium) and then wait for a couple of weeks before adding any more livestock. I'm pretty sure once the tank has stabilised you won't have any more problems.

cheers Darrel

This seems more and more likely but why the instability. Tank appeared to have cycled weeks ago. Yes, I have messed with the filter recently but still using the same media. Also, the PH swing. What's that? Has to be the rock right?

No osmocotte there added?

just had a read back through this thread...why Miracle grow? Personally i wouldn't have bothered with it...it contains dye's, and the make up isn't really good for aquatic life. Isn't the chlorine in Miracle grow sky high as well? More than a dose of de chlor could probably handle?

I know it's not entirely uncontroversial but I do think this is barking up the wrong tree. Whilst there are examples to the contrary there are enough people on here who've used it without any adverse consequences.

Hmm, although whilst typing I am starting to wonder.

Might a steady small dose of ammonia be converted through NO2 to NO3 so fast by a mature filter that I wouldn't pick it up with test kits? but result in stress killing my livestock, especially when combined with PH swings?

 

[Radik]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

I used same osmocotte as you and I had constant ammonia leeching.. remember this stuff works for 6 months so you can have it but not detectable to test kit. I then stripped down tank and picked each granule one by one. This could also explain your nitrates at 50ppm as whole nitrifiing process is trying to work at max. But if you overdosed you might never have 0 ammonia 0 nitrites for some time. I tried to fix that by overdosing seachem prime so no livestock died but after month I just removed granules.

 

[G H Nelson]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Hi
I did a massive RO water change 2 days ago.
Can you clarify.
What ratio did you use if any :?:
How did you perform this action :?:
I have my suspicions it could be oxygen starvation.
I would stop using RO for the moment and use good old tap water for water changes.
hoggie

 

[hotweldfire]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Radik, I'm starting to come round to your point of view. Perhaps I should have paid more attention to your warning at the beginning.

Hi
I did a massive RO water change 2 days ago.
Can you clarify.
What ratio did you use if any :?:
How did you perform this action :?:
I have my suspicions it could be oxygen starvation.
I would stop using RO for the moment and use good old tap water for water changes.
hoggie

No ratio, pure RO with a tiny bit of remineraliser. About 70% of tank volume. Oxygen starvation from RO?

By the way last shrimp found dead this morning. Don't hold out much hope for the last chili given how it was swimming last night.

Despite the hassle, am minded to rip this down. Get rid of the osmocote, get rid of the rock. Never been that happy with the rock anyway. Could never get it to sit right.

 

[G H Nelson]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Hi hotweldfire
I think that's where your problem has arisen.
I'm not a expert on RO application...but I think it also strips other valuable components from tap-water.
Electrolytes come to mind.
I suppose its like asking you to scale the Himalayas with out any oxygen and periodic acclimatisation its not going to happen.
I would remove as much water as possible and slowly add tap-water over a 5/6 hour period.
hoggie

 

[Tom]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Is there any reason behind you using RO?

 

[madlan]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

I doubt it would be oxygen starvation. Reverse osmosis water has an increased oxygen concentration, as O2 has a small enough molecule to cross the membrane.

Do you aerate\heat the water before changing?

I would put my money on a massive pH swing due to no buffering. (What's the KH value of the water?)
I use osmocote (quite a large amount compared to most) with no negative effects just lots of plant growth! I have sensitive fish too – wild cardinals\angels\rams\hatchets.

 

[G H Nelson]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Hi
I doubt it would be oxygen starvation.
I think your wrong first it depends on the membrane being used.
Also I think it could be a combination of low oxygen a large Ph swing and mineral depletion.
Have a read at this article :arrow: Once collected the water MUST be aerated for 24 hours to replace the oxygen removed by the Ro unit. For freshwater keepers it will also need reconstruction, this can be done in a number of ways.
You can mix it with a percentage of prepared tap water passed through a tap water filter (see guide), the quantities of which will differ depending on what type of water you will need for your aquarium(s) and the hardness in your tap water, so experimentation will be required.
You can also add a number of powders and buffers into the water to give it back the GH and KH lost in the Ro process. There are many of these on the market and your aquatic dealer will be able to advise you.
An electronic TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) meter and pH meter will come in very useful indeed for the preparation. Ordinary liquid or tablet kits will be fine but an electronic pH meter is much quicker and the TDS meter is a must.Once installed you will have to collect the water for preparation.

The water will be very unstable and gladly soak up any contaminants in plastics, so buckets used for wine making and the like are recommended. An Ro unit is excellent for removing any contaminants in the water as discussed, however it is also very good a removing all the good things such as Minerals, Salts and Oxygen.
The pH will be lowered by about 1 to 1.5 and the water will be distilled and lifeless. Needless to say that your fish won’t live for very long in it, however freshwater fishkeepers will have very soft water to reconstruct as they wish for breeding or maintaining purposes. Marine keepers have clean water to mix with salt for their systems.
Taken from this page :arrow: http://www.fishcrazy.co.uk/Guides/View_ ... -and-Units.
Regards
hoggie

 

[dw1305]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Hi all,
I wouldn't worry too much about the osmocote, I think if you have a larger plant mass and leave the tank it will stabilise. If you want to keep black water fish then I would remove the "Pagoda Rock", if you aren't I'd leave it in.

Deaths could well have happened when lights were off. Or am I misunderstanding?

That would be my suspicion that whilst the lights were off the O2 levels fell low enough to kill the stock. This is probably because the conversion of the ammonia (from the shrimp/fish/substrate/osmocote) to nitrite and nitrate stripped enough O2 out of the water. Once the light were on, oxygen was evolved by photosynthesis, and O2 levels would rise above lethal/sub lethal levels.

I would put my money on a massive pH swing due to no buffering. (What's the KH value of the water?)

I'll try and explain why I'm not convinced about pH swings at low carbonate buffering (when using RO) are actually that damaging to fish. In this case I also think that the "Pagoda Rock" would be adding carbonate/bi-carbonate (dKH) and calcium (dGH) ions.

The pH is a measure of the ratio of OH- ions and H+ ions (H + H + O = H2O) (or other acids and bases expressed as OH- and H+ ions).

The easiest way to think of it is that acids are H+ donors and add H+ ions, and alkalis are H+ acceptors and remove H+ ions.

At the ratio of 1:1 H+:OH- the pH is pH7 (really it should be pH-7 (10-7 H+ ions and 10-7 OH- ions)), more H+ ions are added and pH falls (more H+ added, at pH6 H+ = 10-6).

What the pH doesn't tell you is how much of the OH- and H+ ions there are, in the case of RO there is no reserve of alkaline ions, they are all in solution. As soon as the ratio changes in favour of the H+ ions, there are no alkaline ions in reserve and the ratio can rapidly rise to pH5 (10-5) etc. The pH can swing wildly at low dKH, but this is not the same thing as the pH fluctuating wildly in buffered systems, it is because pH is an inappropriate way of measuring acidity/alkalinity in very dilute solutions. The actual change in the amount of OH- and H+ ions is very small, it is the ratio that has changed and that we have measured as pH. A very dilute solution of a weak acid can have a very low pH, but it won't effect the fish in the same way that a low pH in a buffered system would, because in the buffered system the change in the number of ions would be several orders of magnitude larger.

I hope that makes sense, as I know from other forums I am cr*p at trying to explain pH and buffering.

cheers Darrel

 

[hotweldfire]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

People, thanks all for your advice. Have to say I'm getting confused so will try to write a synopsis.

Possible causes appear to be

- osmocote
- PH fluctuations
- oxygen depletion

Darrel, I'm just about following your explanation above. You're saying that it's the amount of H+ or OH- ions that matter to fish and the PH doesn't measure this. It measures their ratio to each other. Are you saying that in a buffered system a change in PH is actually a much larger change in the amount of ions than in a non-buffered system? Therefore a change in PH represents something less harmful in a non-buffered system? KH is at 1, btw, has been since setup. Never changed.

TBH I don't know how big the PH fluctuation earlier that week that I picked up was. This is because I hadn't measured PH for some time having assumed it had stabilised (and because I got lazy about recording my measurements). Last record I have of the ph is 10th July where I was picking up 6.9. That's just over two weeks before I picked up the massive PH reading off the scale of my test kit. So it could have been a gradual shift up over two weeks or it could have more recent and massive.

Your suspicion is that the activity of the filter converting NH4->NO2->NO3 stripped the oxygen out of the water when lights were off because the plants weren't producing oxygen. Why on earth would that happen though?

Why would the bacteria have to be working so hard to nitrify? New filter (but with same filter media)? Let's remember this tank has been running for 2 months now. Or is it osmocote constantly adding ammonia to the system hence the small filter bacteria colony working overtime to convert it? The only other explanation is a spiral of death. One started by my killer filter but once established hard to stop. I had lost a shrimp on the Tuesday (ammonia spike even if followed by big water change). On Friday lost all fish.

Re: the RO issue. Firstly, the reason I'm using it is to keep the water soft and acidic for blackwater fish and fairly high grade shrimp. In terms of oxygen level. Even if an RO filter does strip the oxygen out of the water (I don't have one, I buy the stuff) it will sit for at least a couple of days if not a week before use.

Admittedly this will be in a closed container but then will be poured in to a bucket (lots of splashing) and then over my hand into the top of the tank water (more splashing). In addition the spraybar is directed and positioned to break the surface of the water to enable gas exchange primarily for co2 exchange (don't go there - different debate on a different thread http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16243) but this would work for o2 right? I also add remineraliser to it for calcium and magenesium. By doing so I appear to have achieved the parameters the far east breeders like to keep their shrimp tanks at - PH in the 6-7 range, KH at 1, GH at around 4-6.

Except I've created the shrimp tank of death.

The consistently high nitrate readings would indicate a big big clue. Suggests to me that there is a source of ammonia in here that is being worked on by the filter colony all the time. This might be coming from shrimp/fish deaths or might be coming from osmocote. Or might it be coming from the nutrasoil? Surely it should have stopped leaching by now?

That is if the nitrate test kits could be relied upon. They are notoriously unreliable. Mine seems reliable as it indicates the same level for two months. This doesn't mean it is accurate.

A short timeline recap may be helpful

Tank running for 2 months now
Seemed to cycle in 21 days (no NH4 or NO2 readings, none since then either)
Subsequent deaths due to (mainly at least) killer P@H filter
Sunday 17th stopped using ADA ferts, swapped to 10ml EI solution once a week
Thursday 21st replaced killer with Sera filter, replanted, water change
Sunday 24th 10ml EI mix
Tuesday 26th, very high PH, dead shrimp, water change
Thursday 28th, installed Dennerle nano filter, very small water change (top up really)
Friday 29th - all fish dead

 

[dw1305]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Hi all,

Darrel,........ You're saying that it's the amount of H+ or OH- ions that matter to fish and the PH doesn't measure this. It measures their ratio to each other.

Yes.

Are you saying that in a buffered system a change in PH is actually a much larger change in the amount of ions than in a non-buffered system?

Yes.

Therefore a change in PH represents something less harmful in a non-buffered system?

Yes.

Your suspicion is that the activity of the filter converting NH4->NO2->NO3 stripped the oxygen out of the water when lights were off because the plants weren't producing oxygen. Why on earth would that happen though? ......

Could be a number of reasons - warmer water?, less flow speed, water change removed DOC which was acting as a chelating agent etc and we may never know.

Or is it osmocote constantly adding ammonia to the system hence the small filter bacteria colony working overtime to convert it? The only other explanation is a spiral of death. One started by my killer filter but once established hard to stop. I had lost a shrimp on the Tuesday (ammonia spike even if followed by big water change). On Friday lost all fish.

Could be either of these options.

The consistently high nitrate readings would indicate a big big clue. Suggests to me that there is a source of ammonia in here that is being worked on by the filter colony all the time. This might be coming from shrimp/fish deaths or might be coming from osmocote. Or might it be coming from the nutrasoil? Surely it should have stopped leaching by now?

That was the thing that made me think it was an O2 issue, high nitrate would indicate high ammonia, unless you've added a lot of KNO3 etc.

I'm pretty sure if you replace the Pagoda Rock, and then leave the tank alone (add some more stems and/or floaters) for another month, or so, that it will stabilise. Personally I'd stop adding any ferts. for the while and only start again when the plants begin to grow paler green and growth slows. If you have a TDS meter, I'd dip it in every week and get a reading (should be reasonably consistent), if not I'd use the pH meter. I'd expect the pH also to remain much the same (you need to be consistent in the time of day when you do this, as you will have large diurnal pH swings). I'd probably also only top of evaporation for the while (with RO).

After the month I'd add a few cherry shrimps, and then assuming everything is OK, after that your other shrimps.

cheers Darrel

 

[hotweldfire]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Very useful. Will pull out the pagoda and leave substrate, including osmocote, as is for now.

However, would rather not have a completely rock free tank. Anybody have recommendations for inert rock? How about dragon stone? Black lava rock? Have both of these knocking about. Don't have to add now but would like some rock in there eventually and don't want the same problem.

Also thinking about adding both purigen and an almond tea bag to the filter to help remove some of the ammonia and create mild blackwater conditions. Adding too many additional parameters at this stage?

 

[dw1305]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Hi all,
Black lava rock should be fairly inert. You can use the hardness test otherwise. Any rock that is really hard won't add many solutes, even if it is carboniferous limestone etc. If you don't mind it being light in colour any rock which is mainly quartz (Granite, Flint) will also do.

I wouldn't worry about the ammonia level if all the stock have died, the plants will mop it up, so there is no need for purigen. I always have a few alder cones or leaves in the tank, so I don' see that the Indian Almond leaf will hurt. If you can keep the pH below pH7 most of the ammonia (NH3) will be as the much less toxic ammonium ion, NH4+.

I'd probably keep "gardening" to a minimum, just remove dead leaves.

cheers Darrel

 

[hotweldfire]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Thanks Darrel.

Do the test. Put pagoda to RO water and if you have TDS meter (you should if you have RO unit) watch TDS increase over time. I did that with mini landscape stone and he gave me +30TDS per day and that's why I hate using them in shrimp tanks. You need inert stones also if you have RO you can remove ADA and go inert substrate. You will get stable conditions this way.

Got a TDS meter a week ago. Tested both my tanks. Both read around 250. Tested them couple of days ago and both read around 275. Main tank has had a full week of EI ferts go in. Nano has had nothing go in. Hmmm.

So did what you suggested. Put a spare piece of pagoda that I pulled out of the tank a few weeks ago in a glass of tap water.

Immediate reading of 25 (this is the RO reading).
12 hours later - 47
24 hour later - 57

Naturally the TDS won't be going up in the tank this fast as the proportion of rock to water is nowhere near as high (although there is the effect of acidic substrate to be taken into account). Still, not good.

Have ripped out all the rock.

 

[hotweldfire]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Hello all,

Sorry for the tardy update. Apologies for the images - phone camera.

Obviously the first thing you'll notice is that I've wimped out and injected co2. I promise this is temporary and the co2 levels are now very low as I'm weaning the tank off it.

I've effectively replaced the stone with three pieces of mopani wood. Left the stems pretty much as they were (except for the zosty which all died) and they're doing well. Added some hydrocotyle verticillata which is doing ok, despite being in the shade.

Also this crypt:

Green gecko. Absolutely love it. Arrived as just some roots with the leaves already trimmed off. Growing like a nutter. The wood behind it has fissidens fontanus growing on the lower part and a mystery moss (courtesy of Erdal again) growing on the upper part.

Third attempt at growing HC in this tank (masochist) but appears to be doing ok this time. This lot are from my main tank and it's growing - vertically rather than horizontally - but growing. Will trim and hopefully it will spread a bit more.

This is a new mini java fern I got in from the far east. Not doing so well, nor is it's compatriot, a mini windelov fern which is in my main tank. Very generous portion from the ebay seller but am starting to suspect it may have been grown emersed. Thinking of trimming it right back to the rhizome to see what happens.

Also not at all sure about this largest piece of wood. Have a thinner piece in the garden that I may swap it for. If I keep it might go for coral pelia growing out of the gnarly little hollows and cracks. If I go for the thinner one might cover it in mini xmas moss.

Currently have 6 ember tetras in there dealing with the mayfly infestation I have. The last of the surviving mayfly appear to have emerged from the water tonight (pretty amazing to watch) but there's plenty of copepods and the like still in there. The tetras are very skittish but given room they come out to hunt and are very watchable.

They'll likely be shifted to the main tank in a week or so. Might have another go at microrasbora or might go shrimp only.

Thanks for looking.

 

[hotweldfire]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Quick update to precede another one when I get round to taking more photos.


Home nano end Feb by hotweldfire, on Flickr

This is a few weeks old. CO2 gone as is HC which was ripped out a few months ago to be replaced by parvula. However, I didn't like how it looked there so it has been replaced:


2012-2-2_20.48.44 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

With Elatine hydropiper

:?

Yep, probably doomed but it's doing so well in my main tank with no conscious intervention on my part I thought why not. If it takes I think it will look fantastic there. If it doesn't, well, I planted C. parva just behind it (hacked back to the root so you can't see it above) and I'll be perfectly happy with that as the final carpet in this tank.

 

[JohnC]

Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre

Quick update to precede another one when I get round to taking more photos.


Home nano end Feb by hotweldfire, on Flickr

This is a few weeks old. CO2 gone as is HC which was ripped out a few months ago to be replaced by parvula. However, I didn't like how it looked there so it has been replaced:


2012-2-2_20.48.44 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

With Elatine hydropiper

:?

Yep, probably doomed but it's doing so well in my main tank with no conscious intervention on my part I thought why not. If it takes I think it will look fantastic there. If it doesn't, well, I planted C. parva just behind it (hacked back to the root so you can't see it above) and I'll be perfectly happy with that as the final carpet in this tank.

This is starting to look lovely. I'm still sitting on my P@H cube but i've got an instant scape waiting to go in from my 10L dennerle.

Thanks for taking the time to post this all.

Best Regards,
John