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Not dosing EI

Aqua360

Aqua360

Member
Joined
15 Feb 2016
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Location
UK
So I've been doing a bit of reading on fertilizers recently, and am very aware of the popularity of the EI method.

I have a couple of concerns though, that stem from my stocklist of cherry shrimp and minnows/tetras, as follows:

1) With shrimp being especially sensitive to copper, the trace elements; though quite necessary for optimal plant growth and health, worry me in the same tank as the shrimp.

2) With the high volume of nitrates being dosed weekly, and their corresponding large water change at the end of the week. I can understand the logic, i.e. bomb the plants with more than enough nutrients so that their growth is maximised, however I'd have thought a nitrate ppm of around 10 would suffice both plants and fish no? Since the plants will still have nitrate available? Thus water changes would likely become lower? I'm not a big fan of changing more than 30% a week, not through laziness; more to avoid shocking tank inhabitants.

Hopefully this doesn't sound too daft, I'm still very much learning here. Right now, my plan would be to stock up on dry ferts including potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, magnesium sulphate, potassium sulphate; some calcium and iron alongside some liquid carbon. I'll also purchase trace chelates, but again the copper content would have me dosing sparingly.

So I guess what I'm really probing for here are thoughts on this, whether I can dose the above in a manner that will be safe for both shrimp and fish; in the full knowledge that it may yield slower growth...I don't currently have any advanced type of plants on my wishlist so far, if that helps.

Looking at the dry ferts, it recommends mixing a 500ml solution; does anyone do this and how do they store it? for how long? Assuming the solutions "go bad" after around a month, i guess the simple solution is to mix a couple of weeks worth at a time only?

Thanks all
 
Aqua360 said:
Looking at the dry ferts, it recommends mixing a 500ml solution; does anyone do this and how do they store it? for how long? Assuming the solutions "go bad" after around a month, i guess the simple solution is to mix a couple of weeks worth at a time only?
Click to expand...
The macro solution will last for ever as it is only inorganic salts.

However the micro solution is degraded (unchelates) by light, thus must be kept in the dark. Generally the micro will not go mouldy as can contain additives (potassium sorbate) to act as a preservative.

Where mouldiness does occur is if you make an all in one solution (macro and micro) which will go mouldy and un chelate unless you add preservative and lower the pH.
 
ian_m said:
The macro solution will last for ever as it is only inorganic salts.

However the micro solution is degraded (unchelates) by light, thus must be kept in the dark. Generally the micro will not go mouldy as can contain additives (potassium sorbate) to act as a preservative.

Where mouldiness does occur is if you make an all in one solution (macro and micro) which will go mouldy and un chelate unless you add preservative and lower the pH.
Click to expand...
Could the micro also be stored in a fridge?
 
Aqua360 said:
So I've been doing a bit of reading on fertilizers recently, and am very aware of the popularity of the EI method.

I have a couple of concerns though, that stem from my stocklist of cherry shrimp and minnows/tetras, as follows:

1) With shrimp being especially sensitive to copper, the trace elements; though quite necessary for optimal plant growth and health, worry me in the same tank as the shrimp.

2) With the high volume of nitrates being dosed weekly, and their corresponding large water change at the end of the week. I can understand the logic, i.e. bomb the plants with more than enough nutrients so that their growth is maximised, however I'd have thought a nitrate ppm of around 10 would suffice both plants and fish no? Since the plants will still have nitrate available? Thus water changes would likely become lower? I'm not a big fan of changing more than 30% a week, not through laziness; more to avoid shocking tank inhabitants.

Hopefully this doesn't sound too daft, I'm still very much learning here. Right now, my plan would be to stock up on dry ferts including potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, magnesium sulphate, potassium sulphate; some calcium and iron alongside some liquid carbon. I'll also purchase trace chelates, but again the copper content would have me dosing sparingly.

So I guess what I'm really probing for here are thoughts on this, whether I can dose the above in a manner that will be safe for both shrimp and fish; in the full knowledge that it may yield slower growth...I don't currently have any advanced type of plants on my wishlist so far, if that helps.

Looking at the dry ferts, it recommends mixing a 500ml solution; does anyone do this and how do they store it? for how long? Assuming the solutions "go bad" after around a month, i guess the simple solution is to mix a couple of weeks worth at a time only?

Thanks all
Click to expand...

1. The amount of copper in micro traces is almost untraceable so you should not worry;
2. The amount of NO3 from outer sources depends on lots of things: substrate, livestock, feeding regime, plant mass etc. In one case plants can do well with no NO3 added and in the other even 40 ppm can be low. So 10 ppm a week is a good start point and will give you some ideas to increase or decrease the dosage over time. Water changes not only removes extra nutrients but organic waste from plants and fish. If you are so afraid for your inhabitants you can do two 30 percent changes twice a week although it might not be necessary.
 
EdwinK said:
1. The amount of copper in micro traces is almost untraceable so you should not worry;
2. The amount of NO3 from outer sources depends on lots of things: substrate, livestock, feeding regime, plant mass etc. In one case plants can do well with no NO3 added and in the other even 40 ppm can be low. So 10 ppm a week is a good start point and will give you some ideas to increase or decrease the dosage over time. Water changes not only removes extra nutrients but organic waste from plants and fish. If you are so afraid for your inhabitants you can do two 30 percent changes twice a week although it might not be necessary.
Click to expand...

I've read that levels of 0.001% are present in usual micro ferts, which i guess i'm overreacting at...I wonder if the copper acts the same as nitrate creeps, i.e. a standard weekly dose amounting to 0.007%, 4 weeks without water changes would amount to 0.028 (assuming plants dont uptake). With 50% water changes, this will still creep over time, albeit a very long time. In which case a possible answer would be a very large water change at irregular periods throughout the year?

Given that i'm taking the liquid carbon route to start off, I think i'll get TNC complete at the same time; which should last me a long time on 60 litres. Still not ruling out the dry fert option, but I'll try the liquids first; its basically going to cost me £20 for a full year of carbon and ferts so i'm not worried about cost at this point.
 
Hi all

EI dosing is sure for your shrimps and fish... there are thousand of EI users around the world that successfully grow plants and breed both shrimps and fish. As mentioned by other posters, I would be more worried by other things (fish stock, tank husbandry, good balance between light/CO2/ferts, good flow, biological filtration, high plant biomass, etc.). Actually I found over the last years that liquid carbon you will be using can have a much relevant impact on my shrimp colony (if overdosed) than ferts.

I produce most of my fert solutions using dry salts, it is much cheaper. I only struggle to find the Fe chelates I want but, as I only have small tanks and the amount used is very low, I don't mind buyign sometimes the micro solutions. You may receive a different advice but I would stick with DIY ferts, but at least at the beginning not necessarily with the EI approach. Try smaller doses and fine tune it to your needs. I found for all my tanks that they could do very well with a much smaller amount than the "EI standard recommended dose"... and personally I don't want crazy growth and too many nutrients in the water column (but that's me :))

Jordi
 
Aqua360 said:
With 50% water changes, this will still creep over time, albeit a very long time. In which case a possible answer would be a very large water change at irregular periods throughout the year?
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. A common misconception that the dose left in the water keeps on getting higher. Simple maths shows that it can never get higher than triple your initial dose if dosing three time in a row.

For example dosing 10ppm of salt and dosing for 3 days then water change every 4th day (keep it simple), shows residual never rises above 30ppm (after infinite number of days). This is also assuming plants don't use any of the salt, which is highly unlikely.
Day 1 - 10ppm
Day 2 - 20ppm
Day 3 - 30ppm
Day 4 - 15ppm (water change)
Day 5 - 25ppm
Day 6 - 35ppm
Day 7 - 45ppm
Day 8 - 22.5ppm (water change)
Day 9 - 32.5ppm
Day 10 - 42.5ppm
Day 11 - 53.5ppm
Day 12 - 26.75ppm (water change)
Day 13 - 36.75ppm
Day 14 - 46.75ppm
Day 15 - 56.75ppm
Day 16 - 28.375ppm (water change).
 
ian_m said:
No it doesn't. A common misconception that the dose left in the water keeps on getting higher. Simple maths shows that it can never get higher than triple your initial dose if dosing three time in a row.

For example dosing 10ppm of salt and dosing for 3 days then water change every 4th day (keep it simple), shows residual never rises above 30ppm (after infinite number of days). This is also assuming plants don't use any of the salt, which is highly unlikely.
Day 1 - 10ppm
Day 2 - 20ppm
Day 3 - 30ppm
Day 4 - 15ppm (water change)
Day 5 - 25ppm
Day 6 - 35ppm
Day 7 - 45ppm
Day 8 - 22.5ppm (water change)
Day 9 - 32.5ppm
Day 10 - 42.5ppm
Day 11 - 53.5ppm
Day 12 - 26.75ppm (water change)
Day 13 - 36.75ppm
Day 14 - 46.75ppm
Day 15 - 56.75ppm
Day 16 - 28.375ppm (water change).
Click to expand...

maths isn't my strong point ;) on the same vein though, would the upper limit for copper ever reach an upper ceiling stage then that is dangerous for shrimp? I don't have a specified number for it, I've heard 0.025% are dangerous
 
Aqua360 said:
on the same vein though, would the upper limit for copper ever reach an upper ceiling stage then that is dangerous for shrimp?
Click to expand...
Doubt it. Many people here dose EI and keep shrimp no problem. Biggest shrimp death problem people encounter is plants being washed in copper sulphate, to kill snails, can still be deadly to shrimps even after being sat in the shops display tanks for quite a while. So be very careful where you get your plants from.
 
ian_m said:
Doubt it. Many people here dose EI and keep shrimp no problem. Biggest shrimp death problem people encounter is plants being washed in copper sulphate, to kill snails, can still be deadly to shrimps even after being sat in the shops display tanks for quite a while. So be very careful where you get your plants from.
Click to expand...

I've learned that one all too well recently!
 
ian_m said:
Biggest shrimp death problem people encounter is plants being washed in copper sulphate
Click to expand...

parotet said:
Actually I found over the last years that liquid carbon you will be using can have a much relevant impact on my shrimp colony (if overdosed) than ferts
Click to expand...

Shrimps are very sensitive to Copper and also Glutaraldehyde. The former one comes from microelements (but rarely toxic unless you really overdose them) and, as said by Ian, from anti-algae treatment. CuSO4 is commonly used as algae killer in aquatic plant farms, so it is good practise to wash well the plants before introduce them in the tank if you are keeping inverts. The story of the glutaraldehyde is different. Meanwhile is a complementary source of carbon for the plants, it is a substance really toxic for life as interferers in the breathing at molecular level, blocking this basic function of the mitochondria. Keeping at low concentrations does not have much impact in the inverts, but if you exceed at any rate the recommended dosing, then you can face some mortality. The mortality will be usually bigger in larvae and eggs than in adults. But using the expected dosis you should do it right.

Apart from those, thiosulphates are also very toxic for shrimps. These components are the ones in all the dechlorinators, so be again careful with its dosing if you are using tap water. RO water usually is better for shrimps but if not, make sure you add the right amount, which not always is easy due to concentration of the product. E.g. Seachem Prime is really concentrated, so no good for small tanks with shrimps as it is almost impossible to add just the right amount.

And about the method, my personal opinion is that EI is a risky method and unnecessary. It is true many people succeed with it, but almost the same amount failed. In addition, I think is totally unnatural changing the water every 4 days. The only method recommending that is EI, and because it is a gunshot approach in which without looking for an understanding of the closed ecosystem of the tank, we just overdose to ensure the plants have what they need. And before people jumps over my back for telling this (yes, I am a dissident of EI), it is just my personal opinion, probably driven by the fact I am scientist and I do not like the game of black boxes (and EI is one). I recognise, however, that brings less headaches at start if you get it right. But the difficult is getting it right, because the method is very sensible to CO2 and light levels...and unfortunately, each tank requires different ones. Even Tom Barr himself expressed what I am saying here a few years ago (http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ei-daily-methods-or-pmdd-po4.915/), and it has been so much flexible that nowadays the EI implmeneted by many folks does not preserve at all the Redfield index in which the original EI is based.

Anyway, back to the topic, whatever the approach you select, the right thing is to ensure you balance well light and CO2 and ensuring there is no lack of nutrients. If you use EI, water change routine every 4 days. With other methods, you could change that for 7 or even 10 days, but then you need to get a better control of what happens in the tank.

Cheers,

Manuel
 
Aqua360 said:
I've read that levels of 0.001% are present in usual micro ferts, which i guess i'm overreacting at...I wonder if the copper acts the same as nitrate creeps, i.e. a standard weekly dose amounting to 0.007%, 4 weeks without water changes would amount to 0.028 (assuming plants dont uptake). With 50% water changes, this will still creep over time, albeit a very long time. In which case a possible answer would be a very large water change at irregular periods throughout the year?...
Click to expand...

In short, no. The accumulation has a peak and will not exceed that.

If you dose 1 PPM of something and change 50% of water every week,
the accumulation of that thing will be never reach 2x of the amount you dose each week,
i.e., 1 PPM x 7 days x 2 = 14 PPM. It will never really reach 14 PPM.

The funny thing is yes, the number will increase but never reach 14.
Because it is only the number behind the decimal point that get increased
and it will be just longer and longer.

A very useful calculator for this is http://rotalabutterfly.com/accumulation.php

Here is the accumulation after 200 days, the peak is 13.999999947846 PPM.
It's not that frightening.

accumu.jpg
 
Great responses here guys, thanks a bunch :)

I feel reassured about dosing etc, I'm just going to have to be super super careful with my measurements
 
Aqua360 said:
I'm just going to have to be super super careful with my measurements
Click to expand...
Or dilute things like dechlorinator as 10ml dechlorinator to 90ml RO/distilled water and dose via a syringe as an easy to measure 10ml rather then a hideously difficult 1ml. Repeat with macros, but be careful with micro as diluting can/will dilute any anti-mould agent and allow it to go mouldy. Some people add potassium sorbate (preservative, 0.2gr per 500ml) and ascorbic acid (pH lowerer, 0.5gr per 500ml) to stop their micros going mouldy.
 
ian_m said:
Or dilute things like dechlorinator as 10ml dechlorinator to 90ml RO/distilled water and dose via a syringe as an easy to measure 10ml rather then a hideously difficult 1ml. Repeat with macros, but be careful with micro as diluting can/will dilute any anti-mould agent and allow it to go mouldy. Some people add potassium sorbate (preservative, 0.2gr per 500ml) and ascorbic acid (pH lowerer, 0.5gr per 500ml) to stop their micros going mouldy.
Click to expand...

I've never used RO water...some new reading for me it seems!
 
Well... http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Copper
So, essentially, 0.03 ppm of Cu is enough to kill shrimps, I am afraid, if we trust the source. I have been looking for some works about toxicity. So far, I just found one study related to Penaus japonicus which is probably much less sensitive than freshwater shrimps: http://www.vliz.be/imisdocs/publications/33443.pdf

Main conclusion is that a concentration of 4 ppm is enough to kill 50% of those shrimps in 96 hours. And even less copper if you mix it in the same medium with other toxic metals (which is expected).

Nevertheless, I also doubt micro fertilizers will cause any problem. Note that the concentration of copper in micro ferts is a % in weight. If the ferts are dry, then this % will be reduced by the dilution into the bottle, plus also the dilution in the tank, so probably you are in the order of 0.001 ppms, or so. If you provide the data from the ferts and the dosing you plan, as well as the volume of the tank, I can help you with the maths. ;)

Cheers,

Manuel
 
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