Antipofish said:
ceg4048 said:
You really need to get over your paranoia regarding nitrates. Nitrates are not harmful to your fish. It's what they start out as that causes the problems.
Why is it that many discus breeders of high repute as well as those who breed other fish considered more fussy such as hypancistrus sp or certain south american dwarf cichlids all swear that high nitrates cause breeding problems Clive ?
krazypara3165 said:
cheers, i do remember reading your other posts on nitrates which is what made me think keeping discus in tap water is achievable, however after seeing an awful lot of posts on British and International Discus Keepers Association forum, it was near enough unanimous that nitrates for discus are detrimental to the health of the fish, whereas a lot of other species are more tolerant, thats whats got me thinking about the R.O route. however as stated in my post id like to keep it simple
I've kept discus in tap water and have had no problems at all. CO2 was a different issue though. Dan Crawford has had his discus breed in his EI tank. Just because many people believe something, this does not validate the belief. Discus breeders grossly overfeed their fish in order to promote rapid growth, and in so doing, severely pollute the tank water with organic waste that if left unchecked, turns into ammonia, an extremely toxic substance, and later to nitrite, which is only slightly less toxic. The Nitrogen cycle demands huge amounts of Oxygen. As we've explain countless times, leaving organic waste in the water not only produces the real toxic products, but also robs the water of oxygen, so the fish suffer both nitrogen poisoning and hypoxia. So Discus breeders must change the water frequently. Of course there is nitrate in the removed water. Have the British and International Discus Keepers Association actually done autopsies on fish to determine cause of death? Have they done studies to compare the growth rates of fish in high inorganic nitrate water? All these people know is that they have to change the water frequently in order to improve health. What they don't realize is that they are throwing away the organic waste that results in toxicity and at the same time they happen to be throwing away nitrate, so they guess that nitrate buildup is the cause of their troubles. So they all tell each other about the nasty nitrate and everyone becomes hysterical. The nitrate we dose and the nitrate in the tap is inorganic. It does not go through the nitrification cycle and does not rob the tank of oxygen because it is already the end product. Other chichlid breeders assume that their fish are less susceptible to nitrate, but their waters are less polluted and they are not feeding things like beefheart. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that suddenly becomes fact if no one questions it or if no one tests the evidence.
For how many years and how many people have insisted that NO3/PO4 in a tank causes algae? Maybe if NO3 has nothing to do with algae, it may also be that it is not toxic as well.
geoffbark said:
I think that the key for fresh water fish is keep everything constant.
This is not true at all. Firstly because you can never keep the water constant. It is always under attack by microbes, pollutants and other chemicals, which change the water quality, always for the worse. Secondly because the water quality deteriorates, it's necessary to replace these small volumes of water. There are a couple of parameters which should be held within strict limits, such as temperature, but there are not very many others that need to be held constant. Why is it OK for Discus breeders to perform massive and frequent water changes because of nitrate, but yet water must be held constant to avoid stress? These two cannot both be true.
In the Amazon fish swim from stream to stream in the pursuit of food. Each stream is different in temperature, pH , GH and so forth. Fish have no problems making the adjustments as they navigate the different waters. This whole business of keeping things constant, which is a fantasy, is what paints people in a corner. Concentrate more on keeping the tank clean and stop worrying about NO3, or about keeping things constant. Cleanliness is the most important constant. If you want to keep the conductivity low and if the tap conductivity is very high, then sure, partial RO changes are a good idea but it shouldn't be something to be obsessive over.
Cheers,
