R.O Filtration

[Antipofish]

Right, i visited puncharddiscus up in lancashire today to ask some questions about this topic and was shocked to hear the results! (basically steve that runs the gaff is considered one of, if not the best breeder/importer of quality discus in the uk and if anyone has ever been to his store you can see the quality of his discus is second to none!) and was told that they keep their discus (probably close to 1000) in standard tap water! all they do is fill a res, leave it to stand for two days and use that to fill their tanks. i was quite surprised! and altho this is not a stab at ro water as their is defiantly advantages, i dare someone to show me a better discus kept in R.O water!

How do you quantify what constitutes "better" ? How can you tell that the ones he has would not be "even better" ? Or more to MY point, "even happier" ? How can you refute a recognised cichlid expert (incidentally, he knows his Discus too, having just given a talk on the subject at one of the Aquarist Society Conventions) stating that upon filtering his water he noticed a marked improvement in colouration and behaviours ? Come to think of it, the fact that this chap you mention is successfully keeping his Discus in "tap water" really means nothing at all. He might be lucky and have decent quality tap water, but as already discussed, all tap water is not made equal. So just because he is successful, it does not logically follow that everyone will be. What you are basically saying is "Because this guy does it and he is the best, everyone can" when there are so many other variables, that there is no logic whatsoever to what you are saying.

Furthermore, he is a Discus expert. He knows exactly what to look for with them and can react accordingly if any problems arise. And he has a massive system which can compensate more easily for any problems, than most domestic Discus setups. Most people who aspire to keeping these fish know very little about them, and have even less experience and therefore their potential for success is much reduced. Why then would anyone not wish to improve those chances by providing the best possible environment for them ? I've said it before and I will keep on saying it. Its not "CAN I" that we should be asking, its "SHOULD I".

At the end of the day, I daresay you can keep fish in less than perfect water conditions. And I have not coughed up for an RO unit so I do feel a hypocrite. But Im not telling you that you must buy one, Im just saying what my instincts and beliefs are about there being definite and verifiable benefits to having RO filtered water.

 

[Antipofish]

Why do they leave the water to stand for a few days before using it? There is probably a good reason, I just wondered why they do this?
Cheers

Temperature equalisation (or at least warming up a bit) possibly. But also because it allows the chlorine to gas off. Another method is to aerate the water with an airstone.

 

[krazypara3165]

Right, i visited puncharddiscus up in lancashire today to ask some questions about this topic and was shocked to hear the results! (basically steve that runs the gaff is considered one of, if not the best breeder/importer of quality discus in the uk and if anyone has ever been to his store you can see the quality of his discus is second to none!) and was told that they keep their discus (probably close to 1000) in standard tap water! all they do is fill a res, leave it to stand for two days and use that to fill their tanks. i was quite surprised! and altho this is not a stab at ro water as their is defiantly advantages, i dare someone to show me a better discus kept in R.O water!

How do you quantify what constitutes "better" ? How can you tell that the ones he has would not be "even better" ? Or more to MY point, "even happier" ? How can you refute a recognised cichlid expert (incidentally, he knows his Discus too, having just given a talk on the subject at one of the Aquarist Society Conventions) stating that upon filtering his water he noticed a marked improvement in colouration and behaviours ? Come to think of it, the fact that this chap you mention is successfully keeping his Discus in "tap water" really means nothing at all. He might be lucky and have decent quality tap water, but as already discussed, all tap water is not made equal. So just because he is successful, it does not logically follow that everyone will be. What you are basically saying is "Because this guy does it and he is the best, everyone can" when there are so many other variables, that there is no logic whatsoever to what you are saying.

Furthermore, he is a Discus expert. He knows exactly what to look for with them and can react accordingly if any problems arise. And he has a massive system which can compensate more easily for any problems, than most domestic Discus setups. Most people who aspire to keeping these fish know very little about them, and have even less experience and therefore their potential for success is much reduced. Why then would anyone not wish to improve those chances by providing the best possible environment for them ? I've said it before and I will keep on saying it. Its not "CAN I" that we should be asking, its "SHOULD I".

At the end of the day, I daresay you can keep fish in less than perfect water conditions. And I have not coughed up for an RO unit so I do feel a hypocrite. But Im not telling you that you must buy one, Im just saying what my instincts and beliefs are about there being definite and verifiable benefits to having RO filtered water.

i agree to an extent, as i am not a cichlid expert but in comparison, i have never seen discus like his. Furthermore, colour is not directly related to water quality, more so genetics from what he has been telling me. But your right it is all Dependant on the quality of the tap water, but as you said what works for one may not work for another, so in the case of seeing a noticeable difference its obviously Dependant of tank conditions and many factors could of affected that not just changing to R.O. and in regards to his tap water being good, they keep discus in several locations so i would be really surprised that the tap water is the same at all of them.

I also never said that everyone could do it. It's just after all the debates on the internet regarding keeping discus, that one of the best breeders in the uk does not even consider R.O water and i am incredibly shocked! you also say about running a massive system? this is not the case. the tanks are only filtered by the air lines connected to sponges (sorry i do not know what type of filters these are classed as) and water is directly siphoned out and replaced with 48h tap water only if anything its less complicated than most home systems.

Finally you you ask about saying "should i?" this could start a debate so huge....... E.G why only keep discus in R.O water, shouldnt EVERY fish be kept in it? then we can compare tank sizes, why are we keeping fish that have a range of miles and miles in aquariums 1/1000000000th (and the rest) of the size of their natural environment?

This is not a dig at everyone and i am enjoying everyones opinions, but i believe there has to be a compromise to keeping any pet, there will always be compromises (tank size, r.o or not ect......) but at the end of the day if the fish are looking healthy, growing, and acting normal and happy i dont see a problem.

 

[Matt Warner]

Temperature equalisation (or at least warming up a bit) possibly. But also because it allows the chlorine to gas off. Another method is to aerate the water with an airstone.

Gotcha

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

puncharddiscus up in lancashire

I think location is possibly more important than anything else in the post, this tap water probably comes from a reservoir high up in the mill-stone grit Pennines N. of Blackburn. The tap water will be very different in quality from that in the SE of the UK.

Furthermore, he is a Discus expert. He knows exactly what to look for with them and can react accordingly if any problems arise. And he has a massive system which can compensate more easily for any problems, than most domestic Discus setups.

I think that is all true as well and very relevant, I'm sure he can see things that I certainly wouldn't.

I'm not condoning this, and I think we have had this before, but this is Discus water change time somewhere in SE Asia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YWMnPZKJWaE#t=0s

cheers Darrel

 

[Antipofish]

One thing we agree on Krazy, is that it can spark a mammoth debate, LOL. And btw, I was not only meaning Discus alone would be better off in RO water, I agree, it applies to all. Im not sure most of the fish we keep in our aquariums have a range of the million times the space we provide, like you allude to though. I know for a fact all of the fish I keep are quite used to being in a much more localised domain. In fact, with regards my Apistogramma sp, for example, you can find hundreds all within the space taken by one cubic metre

 

[Ady34]

Surely all of this RO discussion is largely irrelevant as it depends on where the stock are from, what water they were bred in and what they are used too. No point using ro if the discus you buy are born and bred in tap water.... this is then down to researching your purchase. RO has its place for those in areas of high tds where the hobbyist wishes to recreate more closely the natural living conditions of the fish. You most likely wouldnt try to keeep discus in rock hard water and then ro has its place to cut, but its use is probably most likely to dilute to closely match the breeders/source water.
I think in designated breeding systems, then bare bottom, no hardscape tanks are the norm (which in itself some may see as a should i or could i arguement) and in these systems nitrates are usually the end product of the nitrogen cycle and are more likely a sign of poor water conditions down to excessive organic waste which wont be good for the fish. However in our planted tank systems we add extra nitrogen to help feed our plants to a range of 30ppm per week (3-5ppm per day ish), which if left without dosing would quickly be used up by our plants which also use up all sorts of other more potentially damaging toxins. A healthy thriving planted tank only has nitrates due to those we add, and we add at safe levels. A non planted tank with nitrates is a sure sign of an unhealthy system with water in need of a change and a filter overhaul. The two are very different and as such its difficult to argue a definitive answer. A healthy planted tank in my opinion is as good a place as any for a discus fish.
Just my thoughts.
Cheerio,
Ady
Ady.

 

[Antipofish]

Surely all of this RO discussion is largely irrelevant as it depends on where the stock are from, what water they were bred in and what they are used too. No point using ro if the discus you buy are born and bred in tap water....

I don't think any discussion or debate on UKAPS is irrelevant Ady. In every instance they raise valid points for all of us to ingest and learn from, whether it is to accept and embrace something, or to avoid it.

I also disagree that there is no point using RO for fish that were born and bred in tap water, because we have already said more than once on this thread that tap water is not created equal. What if someone living where I do, purchases discus that were bred up north somewhere ?

My tap water is a far cry from the tap water in other locations. In fact, my water is vastly different to a cichlid breeder I know who lives less than two miles away. With such variances, surely RO is a very good way of providing good quality water. I daresay that plenty of people in the UK are lucky enough to have tap water that is close to ideal, but there are many who do not.

 

[Iain Sutherland]

All very interesting but id just like to say that i loved RO until i got my first water bill.... they even came round as they thought i had a severe leak RO for nano's only for me now. My bigger tanks will always have fish that are happy in my tap water.

 

[Ady34]

Surely all of this RO discussion is largely irrelevant as it depends on where the stock are from, what water they were bred in and what they are used too. No point using ro if the discus you buy are born and bred in tap water....

I don't think any discussion or debate on UKAPS is irrelevant Ady. In every instance they raise valid points for all of us to ingest and learn from, whether it is to accept and embrace something, or to avoid it.

I also disagree that there is no point using RO for fish that were born and bred in tap water, because we have already said more than once on this thread that tap water is not created equal. What if someone living where I do, purchases discus that were bred up north somewhere ?

My tap water is a far cry from the tap water in other locations. In fact, my water is vastly different to a cichlid breeder I know who lives less than two miles away. With such variances, surely RO is a very good way of providing good quality water. I daresay that plenty of people in the UK are lucky enough to have tap water that is close to ideal, but there are many who do not.

Indeed, i think you have misunderstood the point i was making though. Maybe i wasnt clear but i meant largely irrelevant in tandem with my point about where the discus are sourced as surely this is the most important consideration. Some are breeders within the uk, but others are sourced from further afield. It is then important for the importers to provide similar water conditions for these fish, and then to pass on this information to the buyer. My point was meant to show that ro would be pointless if the source tap water matched more or less the water of the buyer. Its clear already from this thread the value of discussing as there are some breeders who swear by ro and some who are having great success with tap water....again i think this has a lot to do with where the fish are originally sourced and the water conditions they are used too. Maybe its easier to source fish from dealers/breeders with similar water conditions to yourself, but research is key. Also i think what is clear is that clean water is also important. In a breeders tanks then water changes and filtration is important to reduce organics, in our planted tanks water quality is managed largely through these things automatically (as we do large and frequant water changes and look after our filters as a matter of course) and additionally through the actions of the plants themselves.
I also mentioned that ro has its place in enabling buyers to replicate water conditions of the source. Hard water areas for example use ro to cut with tap water to get the desired quality. I suppose you could argue that using full ro and remineralising allows you to know more precisely exactly what is going into your water, but local water authorities do provide reports which breakdown what is in our tap water, so we could use this to see if there is anything particularly nasty. Im not sure what there could be though in our drinking water that could be that harmful (that we cant eliminate simply through dechlorinators and heavy metal removers...or a good old airstone for a day or two).
RO certainly has its place and there are those that will swear by it. If your tap water is extremely hard and you want soft water fish obviously your going to use it to soften water, but i dont think its necessary to use it to remove nitrates, especially in a planted tank.
Ro helps us to replicate the water in which some of the fish we buy live, but i dont think in planted tanks it helps improve the quality??
There are a lot of different things going on in this discussion which i think is mixing up and confusing the points made
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Antipofish]

All very interesting but id just like to say that i loved RO until i got my first water bill.... they even came round as they thought i had a severe leak RO for nano's only for me now. My bigger tanks will always have fish that are happy in my tap water.

Im shocked. How many litres were you changing each week out of interest ? I calculated my additional bill to work out at £30 a year if I got RO. What rate of wastage was your kit working on ? I have contemplated selling excess to pay for the water. Local LFS charges £4 for 25L I figured I could charge half or a quarter of that and still make money.

 

[Antipofish]

Indeed, i think you have misunderstood the point i was making though. Maybe i wasnt clear but i meant largely irrelevant in tandem with my point about where the discus are sourced as surely this is the most important consideration.

I must have misunderstood then because you wrote... "Surely all of this RO discussion is largely irrelevant as it depends on where the stock are from, what water they were bred in and what they are used too"

Which I read to mean that the discussion was irrelevant because the important factor was what water the fish are used to.

And I still disagreed with that, because where fish are bred or what water they are used to still bears no relevance (IMO) to the water they are destined for when they are purchased and put into other water. (Unless the purchaser is lucky enough to have exactly the same water parameters of course). Therefore I believe that the discussion was acutely relevant because it was highlighting exactly what you said... it depends on a multitude of factors. We are rarely in control of most of those factors, since the water is supplied to us however it comes, and that delivery varies in quality on a daily basis for some. Thus, even with knowing what water the fish were bred in or kept in, there is no guarantee we can replicate it. But with RO water at least, we can give the fish water that is as good as possible.

You mentioned planted tanks and water quality, and also mentioned confusion Ady. I think that was one of the things being confused, because there is always potentially a conflict between what water is ideal for plants and what water is ideal for fish. I am with Clive in his belief that nitrates do not affect most fish, and to that end, adding ferts to my tank does not bother me (with the caveat that there are possible some fish that are the exception). BUT I do believe there are other parameters and constituents in some of our water, that would mean our fish benefit from their removal (either by RO, which can also get the hardness to what is preferable, OR by HMA filter which will remove a lot of the heavy metals).

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

I use pure RO for my CRS tank, remineralised with Mosura plus . In my main tank I use 50/50 mix to get the TDS at around 120.

Why have a debate about it? If you want the ability to cater for fish outside your 'tap water parameters' then INVEST. If you don't then don't.

Shrimples.

 

[Antipofish]

Shrimples.

Shrimples, love it !

 

[Ady34]

Indeed, i think you have misunderstood the point i was making though. Maybe i wasnt clear but i meant largely irrelevant in tandem with my point about where the discus are sourced as surely this is the most important consideration.

I must have misunderstood then because you wrote... "Surely all of this RO discussion is largely irrelevant as it depends on where the stock are from, what water they were bred in and what they are used too"

Which I read to mean that the discussion was irrelevant because the important factor was what water the fish are used to.

And I still disagreed with that, because where fish are bred or what water they are used to still bears no relevance (IMO) to the water they are destined for when they are purchased and put into other water. (Unless the purchaser is lucky enough to have exactly the same water parameters of course). Therefore I believe that the discussion was acutely relevant because it was highlighting exactly what you said... it depends on a multitude of factors. We are rarely in control of most of those factors, since the water is supplied to us however it comes, and that delivery varies in quality on a daily basis for some. Thus, even with knowing what water the fish were bred in or kept in, there is no guarantee we can replicate it. But with RO water at least, we can give the fish water that is as good as possible.

You mentioned planted tanks and water quality, and also mentioned confusion Ady. I think that was one of the things being confused, because there is always potentially a conflict between what water is ideal for plants and what water is ideal for fish. I am with Clive in his belief that nitrates do not affect most fish, and to that end, adding ferts to my tank does not bother me (with the caveat that there are possible some fish that are the exception). BUT I do believe there are other parameters and constituents in some of our water, that would mean our fish benefit from their removal (either by RO, which can also get the hardness to what is preferable, OR by HMA filter which will remove a lot of the heavy metals).

I actually think your right, I'm arguing against my own point as ro does become relevant when your tap water is hugely different from your stockist or from nature especially with more sensitive species.
With regards krazyparas original post about nitrate removal, I don't think RO is necessary, as fert dosing can be adjusted to compensate for high levels of nitrate from the tap.
Cheerio,
Ady

 

[nayr88]

I use pure RO for my CRS tank, remineralised with Mosura plus . In my main tank I use 50/50 mix to get the TDS at around 120.

Why have a debate about it? If you want the ability to cater for fish outside your 'tap water parameters' then INVEST. If you don't then don't.

Shrimples.

Spot on

My water is hard as stone...I CBA to buy the ro stuff and get involved soooooo u don't haha if u wanted CRS that badly then is invest in the kit.

 

[Antipofish]

Just to add to the confusion, here is a quote from Clive whilst he was addressing the issue of water parameters on a reply to someone else's post... (http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=24382)

"For tanks containing "New World" and Congo River Basin tropicals, such as tetras, angels, discus and so forth, the situation is just the opposite, and since the waters are almost devoid of Ca, Mg and other metals, fish from these areas do better in tanks filled with water having been filtered with a Reverse Osmosis filter."

So whilst I understand that the answer he gave on here was targetted at the question asked in the context of nitrates, it seems clear to me that in the general picture RO water works better for certain fish IF you have certain water parameters.

I'm hoping for an RO unit from Santa (but I think I will probably get a britta filter instead, lol, cos Sussex Santa is a cheapskate.

 

[foxfish]

Fish keepers have been using RO units for as long as I can remember, I was selling the Purity on Tap range 30 years ago so certainly nothing new there!
The problems I have with using them revolves around the extremely high amount of waste water they produce, the high maintenance, the really slow production of the desired pure water & the cost of a decent sized unit!
You really need a decent sized carbon pre filter as well & you really need very good mains water pressure.
A booster pump can make all the difference to the ROs performance & reduce the waste considerably but again more maintenance & hassle.
The small pores in the membrane of a reverse osmosis plant cannot block dangerous chemicals like pesticides, herbicides, and chlorine!
So in order to remove them a carbon filter has to be used & regularly maintained.
Another disadvantage of reverse osmosis is that it ends up removing the healthy, naturally occurring minerals meaning you need to add minerals back to the pure water!
In comparison to the other water treatment options, reverse osmosis is a very slow option but it does produce very pure water - especially if used with a large carbon filter & booster pump.
Finely ... how do you know if the filter is working at it best potential?
How can you accurately test the outflow to check the unit is doing its job without taking a sample to a test lab?
Performance would be pretty much guaranteed when new but, even units fitted with a flow meter & by using the manufacturer guideline about changing the Carbon & RO membrane wont guarantee the purity of the outflow after a certain amount of use?
Having said all of that I would still advise RO water for certain applications especially in reef keeping & breeding certain fish.
They are part of our hobby, everyone should try one out but I doubt many will keep up their prolonged use unless you are very dedicated!

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

Why allow your beloved fish or shrimp to merely survive, when you could allow them to thrive?

That is the question.

 

[basil]

HMA filters for me all the way!! They don't suit everyone of course.