R.O Filtration

[krazypara3165]

BOOM! and i believe that is what people call a 'ceg bomb!' thanks for that, its made me feel more confident about keeping them in tap water!

Im not so sure it has given me that confidence. Whilst tarring most mainstream discus keepers with the same brush (of overfeeding and using unsuitable foods) Clive has also implied that just because a couple of named people we are all familiar with have had success keeping them in tap water, that everyone will be as successful. Its a double edged whammy that Im not prepared to accept so easily, simply on the grounds of its author (in this instance). I know people who keep discus, and one who lives very close to me (who knows his cichlids well enough to write for various publications as well as giving talks to Aquarist Societies) neither over feeds his discus nor holds with the idea that tap water is ideal. He has just "kept" them in tap water but having started using an HMA filter, has noticed that they are far happier. This has nothing to do with depleted oxygen caused by excessive feeding, but the water quality itself.

And wanting to use RO water is not obsessive. I find that notion somewhat offensive in fact. From a conversation I had with him before he went on his current tour of duty (which is thankfully soon to end), I know that George Farmer uses RO water because he believes it provides a better environment for his fish. And I would not expect he can be accused of overfeeding either.

Not all water is equal out of our taps too. Water supply companies tend to add cr4p as and when they feel like it. At least having RO filtered water that is then adjusted back to what we want in terms of mineralisation, we can give some kind of continuity to our fish.

true, but i think the point he was getting at is that a lot of people seem to believe you need r.o and the various other stuff, i for one have been told by one person i need 5x 20 min feedings a day which to me seems excessive, and would pollute my water (he was another discus breeder) whereas there seems to be a lot of information surfacing in the recent years saying that discus can thrive and breed in standard tap water (altho you are right, everyone has different water parameters) as you said before about seeing a noticeable difference after using R.O water but surely that would be the case with most fish?

 

[Antipofish]

BOOM! and i believe that is what people call a 'ceg bomb!' thanks for that, its made me feel more confident about keeping them in tap water!

Im not so sure it has given me that confidence. Whilst tarring most mainstream discus keepers with the same brush (of overfeeding and using unsuitable foods) Clive has also implied that just because a couple of named people we are all familiar with have had success keeping them in tap water, that everyone will be as successful. Its a double edged whammy that Im not prepared to accept so easily, simply on the grounds of its author (in this instance). I know people who keep discus, and one who lives very close to me (who knows his cichlids well enough to write for various publications as well as giving talks to Aquarist Societies) neither over feeds his discus nor holds with the idea that tap water is ideal. He has just "kept" them in tap water but having started using an HMA filter, has noticed that they are far happier. This has nothing to do with depleted oxygen caused by excessive feeding, but the water quality itself.

And wanting to use RO water is not obsessive. I find that notion somewhat offensive in fact. From a conversation I had with him before he went on his current tour of duty (which is thankfully soon to end), I know that George Farmer uses RO water because he believes it provides a better environment for his fish. And I would not expect he can be accused of overfeeding either.

Not all water is equal out of our taps too. Water supply companies tend to add cr4p as and when they feel like it. At least having RO filtered water that is then adjusted back to what we want in terms of mineralisation, we can give some kind of continuity to our fish.

true, but i think the point he was getting at is that a lot of people seem to believe you need r.o and the various other stuff, i for one have been told by one person i need 5x 20 min feedings a day which to me seems excessive, and would pollute my water (he was another discus breeder) whereas there seems to be a lot of information surfacing in the recent years saying that discus can thrive and breed in standard tap water (altho you are right, everyone has different water parameters) as you said before about seeing a noticeable difference after using R.O water but surely that would be the case with most fish?

Yes it probably would be the case with most fish. Does that not tell you something about what RO water does/is ? If nothing else it indicates it is probably better for the fish. And it revolves around the question of "SHOULD WE ?" not "CAN WE ?" if you get my drift. Can we keep discus in cr4ppy tap water ? Can we keep other fish in it too ? YES, of course. But the surely if RO water enables us to give better conditions and we are happy to use RO then its a no brainer. I fully agree with Clive's claims that a lot of Discus keepers (in particular but in no means limited to them only) over feed and feed inappropriately. But I am not convinced that that was the only cause of poor water in terms of keeping them. My example is case in point.... a local guy (who lives a mile away from me but is lucky enough to have nice soft water rather than the horrid stuff I have) has good tank maintenance regimes in place, he does not overfeed, nor does he feed beefheart and all that rubbish that is used to bulk up fish. All those factors being equal, he now uses an HMA filter to remove heavy metals along with a few other things from the water, and he has noticed a marked difference in his fish. Better colouration and a more spritely attitude being the two main changes he has cited. That speaks volumes to me, and I don't thing that he is being "obsessive" in using the filter.

 

[Matt Warner]

Krazypara, I honestly wouldn't bother wasting your time and money on an RO unit unless you are wanting to keep corals in a saltwater tank

 

[krazypara3165]

i think this is the plan now, to keep in tap water. if any problems arise i will invest in a small unit and throw 25l worth of treated water every other day in to dilute nitrates ect. however that will be a last resort. i am now determined to show everyone you can keep discus in great condition without R.O.

 

[Antipofish]

i think this is the plan now, to keep in tap water. if any problems arise i will invest in a small unit and throw 25l worth of treated water every other day in to dilute nitrates ect. however that will be a last resort. i am now determined to show everyone you can keep discus in great condition without R.O.

But how will you show that they might not be even happier and in better condition !?

 

[krazypara3165]

that could be said for all fish kept in tap water, as long as they continue to grow without stunted growth, colours stay vibrant, eat and swim thats a pretty good indication.

 

[ceg4048]

Im not so sure it has given me that confidence. Whilst tarring most mainstream discus keepers with the same brush (of overfeeding and using unsuitable foods) Clive has also implied that just because a couple of named people we are all familiar with have had success keeping them in tap water, that everyone will be as successful. Its a double edged whammy that Im not prepared to accept so easily, simply on the grounds of its author (in this instance). I know people who keep discus, and one who lives very close to me (who knows his cichlids well enough to write for various publications as well as giving talks to Aquarist Societies) neither over feeds his discus nor holds with the idea that tap water is ideal. He has just "kept" them in tap water but having started using an HMA filter, has noticed that they are far happier. This has nothing to do with depleted oxygen caused by excessive feeding, but the water quality itself.

I think you're mixing apples and oranges. What do heavy metals have to do with NO3? The OP has targeted the removal of NO3 via RO as a mechanism of water quality control. I specifically stated that the use of RO to reduce issues such as conductivity is a good idea. Neither did I state that tap water was ideal. If the tap water in an area is high in heavy metals or in other toxins such as pesticides then this is a good idea. There are good reasons for using RO but removal of NO3 is not a good reason because it's a misguided reason and is almost always a result of someones obsession with the belief of NO3 toxicity or NO3 causing algae. The penalty of using RO is cost and complication, which reduce the odds of success. At no point has the OP shown us a copy of the water report, which may contain enough information to determine whether this extra cost and complication is warranted.

And wanting to use RO water is not obsessive. I find that notion somewhat offensive in fact. From a conversation...I know that George Farmer uses RO water because he believes it provides a better environment for his fish. And I would not expect he can be accused of overfeeding either.

Wanting to use RO to eliminate NO3 in a planted discus tank is obsessive. Sorry, but you'll need to come to terms with that. What I know is that George Farmer does not use RO to eliminate NO3, although NO3 is automatically removed when using RO it must then be added back into the water if the tank is a CO2 enriched planted tank. The fish are just as happy despite the fact that inorganic NO3 is re-introduced to the water.

Cheers,

 

[Antipofish]

that could be said for all fish kept in tap water, as long as they continue to grow without stunted growth, colours stay vibrant, eat and swim thats a pretty good indication.

But my point, especially with the Discus was that when an HMA filter was used, their colours became more vibrant and behaviour became more perky. Surely, all other factors having remained equal, that indicates that the improvement to water being used was the cause of that ? Everyone will make their own decisions of course, but I thought you had asked originally if RO water would give you better conditions for keeping your Discus. And to me the evidence is undeniably yes.

 

[Antipofish]

Im not so sure it has given me that confidence. Whilst tarring most mainstream discus keepers with the same brush (of overfeeding and using unsuitable foods) Clive has also implied that just because a couple of named people we are all familiar with have had success keeping them in tap water, that everyone will be as successful. Its a double edged whammy that Im not prepared to accept so easily, simply on the grounds of its author (in this instance). I know people who keep discus, and one who lives very close to me (who knows his cichlids well enough to write for various publications as well as giving talks to Aquarist Societies) neither over feeds his discus nor holds with the idea that tap water is ideal. He has just "kept" them in tap water but having started using an HMA filter, has noticed that they are far happier. This has nothing to do with depleted oxygen caused by excessive feeding, but the water quality itself.

I think you're mixing apples and oranges. What do heavy metals have to do with NO3? The OP has targeted the removal of NO3 via RO as a mechanism of water quality control. I specifically stated that the use of RO to reduce issues such as conductivity is a good idea. Neither did I state that tap water was ideal. If the tap water in an area is high in heavy metals or in other toxins such as pesticides then this is a good idea. There are good reasons for using RO but removal of NO3 is not a good reason because it's a misguided reason and is almost always a result of someones obsession with the belief of NO3 toxicity or NO3 causing algae. The penalty of using RO is cost and complication, which reduce the odds of success. At no point has the OP shown us a copy of the water report, which may contain enough information to determine whether this extra cost and complication is warranted.

I understand the difference. The example was not meant to refer specifically to nitrates, but to show that by using a filter (be it an HMA for people with heavy metal issues in the water, or RO for more general filtration) water quality can be improved to the benefit of the fish. NOT just by removing nitrate but by removing other things too. You say "The penalty of using RO is cost and complication, which reduce the odds of success." but I find that claim over the top. Finances have few implications here. People either can afford one or not. How does that reduce the odds of success ? Complication. Really ? I would suggest that 99 people out of 100 have the intelligence to connect an RO unit. They come with very simple plumbing fittings. To say that having an RO unit will reduce the odds of someones success is, IMHO, a little obsessive in itself.

And wanting to use RO water is not obsessive. I find that notion somewhat offensive in fact. From a conversation...I know that George Farmer uses RO water because he believes it provides a better environment for his fish. And I would not expect he can be accused of overfeeding either.

Wanting to use RO to eliminate NO3 in a planted discus tank is obsessive. Sorry, but you'll need to come to terms with that. What I know is that George Farmer does not use RO to eliminate NO3, although NO3 is automatically removed when using RO it must then be added back into the water if the tank is a CO2 enriched planted tank. The fish are just as happy despite the fact that inorganic NO3 is re-introduced to the water. Cheers,

I did not say George uses RO specifically to remove nitrate, rather to improve the quality of water for the fish in general. Whilst the OP cited nitrates as his main reason for wanting the RO, the use of such a filter in general terms cannot be decried as being of no use.

I feel somewhat that your answer(s) are sometimes too specific Clive. Surely being an 'expert' means that when replying you should try to give a broader picture and response to peoples questions. Because whilst it is true that an RO unit purely to remove nitrate is possibly (cant tell without the water report) not necessary, having an RO unit is beneficial for a whole host of other reasons ? Its like (to use a non specific example) someone says "How much CO2 should I push into my aquarium?" Your literal answer might be "As much as you can throw at it so the plants have as much as they need". The result could be that their fish die. Whereas a more global reply would have been of more help. Again, just my observation. And your input is always valuable. But I think sometimes you are too focussed and miss the bigger picture. I trust you will not take offence, as this is observation on my part only and not meant to be a personal insult.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
First up, I have never kept Discus, but I'm still going to have my 2p's worth.

I don't think every-ones tap water is suitable for keeping Discus, or any-other soft water fish, because much of the tap water in the S and E of the UK is extremely hard and full of agricultural pollutants, including fertiliser residues, there is also the potential at any time for an emergency dose of chloramine to be added to your water supply.

Personally I don't use RO, but I'm a hypocrite because I flush the loo with drinking water etc.

I think that a lot of the mythology about Discus has come from keepers who have come from a cichlid keeping back-ground, where planted tanks are relatively unusual. This has led to a situation where keepers change large amounts of water, are OCD about tank cleanliness, use nitrate/phosphate ion removal resins, often don't have a substrate if they feed beef heart etc. They only need to do this because they have started from a position where they have really severely handicapped themselves.

If you start form the premise that Discus are fish originally from warm, soft, tannin stained, pollutant free water, where they eat a varied omnivorous diet, and probably are going to be easiest to maintain under these conditions long term, things become a lot more straight-forward.

Plants are the single largest factor in maintaining water quality, once you have actively growing plants, the water you add to your tank will improve in quality over time, rather than decline. If you start with water low in all salts, you can fertilise your plants using the "Duckweed index" and maintain TDS at ~ 100ppm.

There is a free supply of naturally distilled water, the one I use, rain-water. There is a possibility that it might absorb pollutants during its supply to your water butt, but these have been over-stated. Actually we don't have to rely on our rain-water being pollutant free, but can use a simple bioassay technique (almost universally used in the water industry) to assess the quality of our stored rain-water, the bioassay organism also functions as an additional live food source. What is the wonder organism? step forward Daphnia magna, something we can buy over the counter in any reasonable LFS: <http://ei.cornell.edu/toxicology/bioassays/daphnia/index.html>.

Warm is easily dealt with and we now have a planted tank with warm, good quality soft water, almost there in fact, only filtration, habitat and diet to deal with.

I'll ignore physical filtration, other than to say that I like an easy clean sponge pre-filter, and I'll ignore chemical filtration full stop. Biological filtration is then all about maintaining high levels of oxygenation in the filter material, and also remembering that other surfaces, and the substrate, will provide additional biological filtration <http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/substrate>. Water changes, I'll stick with small and frequent, say 10% a day. I don't need huge volume water change, I've got plants to improve water quality.

Discus come from tannin stained water with dead leaves and sunken wood, the tannic substances from dead leaves and wood act as chelators for heavy metals etc. I'm also fairly sure that dead leaves have other less quantifiable benefits for fry survival etc., some bits here <http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/humic-acids>.

This is also the approach Discus, L number and Apistogramma breeder Larry Waybright ("Apistomaster") uses, and I've found that he is a pretty reliable source.
<http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...quoise-Pair-s-first-spawn&p=473267#post473267>.

That just leaves the contentious subject of diet, Heiko Bleher in his books on Discus found that they ate what-ever came their way, which is true of most black-water fish. What would I feed them? A balanced diet including some shell on Mysis shrimp, live Blood-worms, Mosquito larvae, Daphnia, Earth-worms, Grindal worms, BBS, some vegetables to pick at, topped off by a Astax crumb and Earth-worm / Spirulina flake. A diet that works for other omnivorous SA cichlids from similar habitats, so why should Discus be any different? and also pretty much what is recommended in "Enjoying Cichlids" by Ad Konings.

cheers Darrel

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

Fantastic post Darrel, I've just skimmed over it, so will come back to it later.

Cheers,

 

[Antipofish]

I will second that Darrell, great post covering all the angles. Just one question.. you wrote "Water changes, I'll stick with small and frequent, say 10% a day. I don't need huge volume water change, I've got plants to improve water quality. " How does that tie in with scapers who are using the EI method of ferts ? Or is the duckweed index you referred to (I need to read up on that) a required alternative that makes your model work ? How do you ensure you have sufficient rainwater at all times to provide your needs, because in recent years we have all been suffering elongated periods of water drought (certainly in the South and East of the UK). Is there a need, or benefit to pass rainwater over a carbon filter ? Cheers.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Just one question.. you wrote "Water changes, I'll stick with small and frequent, say 10% a day. I don't need huge volume water change, I've got plants to improve water quality. " How does that tie in with scapers who are using the EI method of ferts ?

You would need to keep the EI water change. I've never used EI or added CO2, so I'm not sure how well Discus and high tech would work. Clive and Tom have successfully kept "difficult" soft-water cichlids successfully high-tech so it is possible.

Or is the duckweed index you referred to (I need to read up on that) a required alternative that makes your model work ?

The "duckweed index" is just a technique for keeping your plants ticking over, it doesn't aim for maximal plant growth, rather it aims for the lowest sustainable rate of plant growth, you only add fertiliser dependent your floating plant health and growth. Have a look a this one <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14400>.

How do you ensure you have sufficient rainwater at all times to provide your needs, because in recent years we have all been suffering elongated periods of water drought (certainly in the South and East of the UK)

I've got a 1500 litres of water storage, but even that may not be enough in a real drought.

Is there a need, or benefit to pass rainwater over a carbon filter

It won't do any harm, but that is the beauty of the Daphnia, they are your "Canary", as long as you have swimming Daphnia in the water you draw off for the water change you are good to go. I draw some water every evening to warm up and just check every morning that the Daphnia are OK.

cheers Darrel

 

[Antipofish]

Thanks Darrel. An interesting approach. Though I can imagine WW3 breaking out if I were to buy 10 water butts @ B&Q and slinging them on the Patio, LOL.

 

[geoffbark]

I think that the key for fresh water fish is keep everything constant.

Sorry i should have clarified what i meant by constant, i meant keep everything you do constant, this will help in diagnostics for problem areas. There is no right or wrong weather a person uses an RO system, harvests rain water uses good old tap water is a personal choice. The OP was asking about high nitrate and RO filtation and the answer is yes RO water will lower your nitrates. But so will other methods.

I believe that discus breaders are not worried about high NO3, but use the NO3 reading as a guide to how polluted the water is. The same way someone may use an fe reading as guide for micro content

 

[krazypara3165]

Wow, it seems i have caused quite a debate. However its all been an interesting read and has given me a lot to think about! its nice to get such wide opinions, as although sometimes it can be conflicting it gives me the bigger picture and a variety of solutions! much better than the standard "you need R.O to keep discus" reply thats constantly thrown around on the internet.

 

[Antipofish]

Wow, it seems i have caused quite a debate. However its all been an interesting read and has given me a lot to think about! its nice to get such wide opinions, as although sometimes it can be conflicting it gives me the bigger picture and a variety of solutions! much better than the standard "you need R.O to keep discus" reply thats constantly thrown around on the internet.

Lol, RO water, along with test kits and a few other topics will always give rise to debate, often a little spirited, because there are always different approaches to our hobby. I believe a lot of the answers boil down to whether the respondent is a "Could I"? or "Should I"? person. I.E. "Should I keep my Discus in the best possible quality water OR Could I keep them in something not quite so akin to what they are used to"? is the question here. Although you mentioned the topic from a nitrate only point of view, I believe there is a broader picture to be addressed, hence the answer I gave Glad its all been useful for you though.

I am hoping Santa brings me an RO unit this year

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

There is no right or wrong weather a person uses an RO system, harvests rain water uses good old tap water is a personal choice. The OP was asking about high nitrate and RO filtation and the answer is yes RO water will lower your nitrates. But so will other methods.

RO will lower nitrates, along with all other ions. The difference isn't so much in the water you use, but really between planted tanks, where the plants remove ammonia, nitrite and nitrate from the water column, and non-planted tanks where you are reliant on water changes, anaerobic out-gassing of N2 and microbial filtration to deal with NH4+ > NO2 > NO3.

I'll ignore the anaerobic reduction (de-nitrification) of NO3 and out-gassing as N2, as it only occurs under specific circumstances, and why any-one would want to use a de-nitrifying coil, Jaubert plenum or deep-sand bed if they had access to other methods of NO3 removal is beyond me.

If you have access to a clean water supply (like RO) you can use it for water changes, which is where "the secret to pollution is dilution" mantra comes from. This is true, but huge volume water changes are only required if levels of pollutants creep up over time.

In planted tanks they don't, quite the opposite, nearly all ions are removed from the water column by the plants, the substrate, humic compounds etc. and water quality improves over time, rather than declines. "You need huge water changes to keep Discus" is based upon a premise that just isn't true if you have plants.

I believe that discus breeders are not worried about high NO3, but use the NO3 reading as a guide to how polluted the water is.

I think you are right and this is exactly what they are doing, because for them NO3 is the smoking gun that indicates that they have had high NH3 and NO2 levels. EI may not be to every-ones taste, but what it has shown fairly conclusively is that if you add high levels of NO3- ions (from KNO3 etc ) to a tank with high oxygen levels and healthy plant growth those NO3- ions don't have any effect on fish health.

The same way someone may use an Fe reading as guide for micro content

This is back to the subject of test kits, and it isn't only iron (Fe) levels that are impossible to measure with test kits, it is nearly all other ions as well. If some-one says to you "I know I had 40ppm NO3", they either have access to analytical lab. or they are misguided.

cheers Darrel

 

[krazypara3165]

Right, i visited puncharddiscus up in lancashire today to ask some questions about this topic and was shocked to hear the results! (basically steve that runs the gaff is considered one of, if not the best breeder/importer of quality discus in the uk and if anyone has ever been to his store you can see the quality of his discus is second to none!) and was told that they keep their discus (probably close to 1000) in standard tap water! all they do is fill a res, leave it to stand for two days and use that to fill their tanks. i was quite surprised! and altho this is not a stab at ro water as their is defiantly advantages, i dare someone to show me a better discus kept in R.O water!

 

[Matt Warner]

Why do they leave the water to stand for a few days before using it? There is probably a good reason, I just wondered why they do this?
Cheers